[bmbweber]

I'm planning on flying out of state (To Missouri from Illinois) to potentially buy a 435i. The owner of the car has it financed through BMW Financial of NA and his payoff is roughly ~$16,000.

He has what looks like a title and says "State of Missouri Certificate of Title" but also shows the 1st Lien Holder being BMW Bank of NA. Next to this is reads:

"Lien Release: To release any lien shown on the face of this title, the lien holder must complete a motorized Lien Release (DOR-4809) to be attached to this title before the purchaser applies for a certificate of title."

This is the document: http://dor.mo.gov/forms/4809.pdf

I've never bought through a private party and want to be 100% protected.

Other than a bill of sale, this "title with a lien", and a Lien release document, what else would I need before I make the payoff on his car, and pay him the rest of the money with a cashier's check?

[Thisisdudewhoru]

Originally Posted by bmbweber

I'm planning on flying out of state (To Missouri from Illinois) to potentially buy a 435i. The owner of the car has it financed through BMW Financial of NA and his payoff is roughly ~$16,000.

He has what looks like a title and says "State of Missouri Certificate of Title" but also shows the 1st Lien Holder being BMW Bank of NA. Next to this is reads:

"Lien Release: To release any lien shown on the face of this title, the lien holder must complete a motorized Lien Release (DOR-4809) to be attached to this title before the purchaser applies for a certificate of title."

This is the document: http://dor.mo.gov/forms/4809.pdf

I've never bought through a private party and want to be 100% protected.

Other than a bill of sale, this "title with a lien", and a Lien release document, what else would I need before I make the payoff on his car, and pay him the rest of the money with a cashier's check?

I'd probably have it signed in front of a notary at a bank or something..

[bmbweber]

I was planning on doing it with a notary.

Was trying to get in touch with BMW Financial to see what exactly they require, but they are closed on the weekend.

[floydarogers]

Go to the BMW Dealer and have their people release the lien. The Dealers are open on weekends...

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

Go to the BMW Dealer and have their people release the lien. The Dealers are open on weekends...

They probably don't have the ability to do that, they're not the lien holder.
Typically a buyer of a car with a lien would deal directly with the lien holder, paying the balance due directly to them, and the remainder of the sale price to the seller. The transaction would be conducted at the office of the lien holder. When that's a local bank, or a finance company that has a local branch office, it's a simple matter. When there is no local office it can be a major hassle. A BMW dealer may be able to act as an intermediary for BMWFNA, but it would have to be worked out in advance.

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

.... A BMW dealer may be able to act as an intermediary for BMWFNA, but it would have to be worked out in advance.

Since they sign for BMWFNA when you buy a car on the weekend, they are certainly an agent for them, and should be able to release the lien.

But it could be different in every state. Last time I bought from a private party, we did the transaction in the bank holding the lien... arranged ahead of time.

[Rick4345]

Originally Posted by bmbweber

I'm planning on flying out of state (To Missouri from Illinois) to potentially buy a 435i. The owner of the car has it financed through BMW Financial of NA and his payoff is roughly ~$16,000.

He has what looks like a title and says "State of Missouri Certificate of Title" but also shows the 1st Lien Holder being BMW Bank of NA. Next to this is reads:

"Lien Release: To release any lien shown on the face of this title, the lien holder must complete a motorized Lien Release (DOR-4809) to be attached to this title before the purchaser applies for a certificate of title."

This is the document: http://dor.mo.gov/forms/4809.pdf

I've never bought through a private party and want to be 100% protected.

Other than a bill of sale, this "title with a lien", and a Lien release document, what else would I need before I make the payoff on his car, and pay him the rest of the money with a cashier's check?

Can you receive PM yet? I was a state trooper in Illinois for 26 years. It would be easier to do than clogging up the blog.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

Since they sign for BMWFNA when you buy a car on the weekend, they are certainly an agent for them, and should be able to release the lien.

They may be able to take the payment as an agent of BMWFNA, but not without it being pre-arranged. They probably can't provide a release of lien because they would not have it on hand. In most states the lien holder holds the actual title. That's how it is where I live now. In some they hold a lien document. That's how it was when I lived in New York and worked for Ford Motor Credit. AFAIK in all cases those documents would be in the possession of the lien holder, not the dealer.

[tex2670]

Originally Posted by bmbweber

I'm planning on flying out of state (To Missouri from Illinois) to potentially buy a 435i. The owner of the car has it financed through BMW Financial of NA and his payoff is roughly ~$16,000.

He has what looks like a title and says "State of Missouri Certificate of Title" but also shows the 1st Lien Holder being BMW Bank of NA. Next to this is reads:

"Lien Release: To release any lien shown on the face of this title, the lien holder must complete a motorized Lien Release (DOR-4809) to be attached to this title before the purchaser applies for a certificate of title."

This is the document: http://dor.mo.gov/forms/4809.pdf

I've never bought through a private party and want to be 100% protected.

Other than a bill of sale, this "title with a lien", and a Lien release document, what else would I need before I make the payoff on his car, and pay him the rest of the money with a cashier's check?

You need a payoff letter from BMWFNA that shows exactly how much they are owed as of the date of your sale. You also need to be sure that they are paid, which cannot happen if you pay your seller the full purchase price. You may want to have 2 checks--one bank check made out directly to BMWFNA, place it in a FedEx envelope addressed to BMWFNA's payoff address, and have the seller witness you tender the envelope to the closest FedEx Office location; and a 2nd check for any excess made out to the seller.

This way, with the payoff letter, and proof of payment, and proof the check was cashed, even if the lien wasn't released, you have proof that BMWFNA no longer has any valid claim to the car. They can't legally enforce a lien without a valid underlying claim of an obligation owed.

Of course, the process varies state by state. So a call to the Missouri DMV would be a good idea too.

[tex2670]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

They probably don't have the ability to do that, they're not the lien holder.
Typically a buyer of a car with a lien would deal directly with the lien holder, paying the balance due directly to them, and the remainder of the sale price to the seller. The transaction would be conducted at the office of the lien holder. When that's a local bank, or a finance company that has a local branch office, it's a simple matter. When there is no local office it can be a major hassle. A BMW dealer may be able to act as an intermediary for BMWFNA, but it would have to be worked out in advance.

I agree--showing up at the BMW dealer unannounced is not the best idea. It's possible that you could arrange through BMWFNA to do this ahead of time, for them to authorize the dealer to accept payment on their behalf.

Originally Posted by floydarogers

Since they sign for BMWFNA when you buy a car on the weekend, they are certainly an agent for them, and should be able to release the lien.

But it could be different in every state. Last time I bought from a private party, we did the transaction in the bank holding the lien... arranged ahead of time.

Plenty of dealers arrange for financing on behalf of plenty of lenders, affiliated with the brand or not. This has nothing to do with accepting payoffs--what if the dealer keeps the payoff money, and gave the new owner a lien release?

Whether a dealer can act on behalf of BMWFNA to satisfy a loan will not vary state by state. The dealer is not their "agent". They can arrange to get you financing when you buy, but that doesn't mean they have the authority to do anything else on behalf of BMWFNA. Maybe they can, but I would not assume this.

[bmbweber]

Originally Posted by Rick4345

Can you receive PM yet? I was a state trooper in Illinois for 26 years. It would be easier to do than clogging up the blog.

Yes I can.

Originally Posted by tex2670

You need a payoff letter from BMWFNA that shows exactly how much they are owed as of the date of your sale. You also need to be sure that they are paid, which cannot happen if you pay your seller the full purchase price. You may want to have 2 checks--one bank check made out directly to BMWFNA, place it in a FedEx envelope addressed to BMWFNA's payoff address, and have the seller witness you tender the envelope to the closest FedEx Office location; and a 2nd check for any excess made out to the seller.

This way, with the payoff letter, and proof of payment, and proof the check was cashed, even if the lien wasn't released, you have proof that BMWFNA no longer has any valid claim to the car. They can't legally enforce a lien without a valid underlying claim of an obligation owed.

Of course, the process varies state by state. So a call to the Missouri DMV would be a good idea too.

This was sort of my thinking, or do an electronic payoff using my account directly withdrawn from my end. Only thing that worries me is without any documentation
from BMWFNA, what do I have to ensure the titles comes to me, instead of BMW sending it to him?

Here's my itinerary:
1.) Inspect and drive car and determine it is as described.
2.) Go to Bank, sign bill of sale, letter of guarantee of transfer of title, and sign over "Lien Title."
3.) Pay off remainder of lien to BMWFNA from my account.
4.) Have cashiers Check written out for remainder, and then deposited into his account (We both use BofA).

Anything I could be missing?

[bmbweber]

MO DMV Notice of Lien Release info: http://dor.mo.gov/motorv/help.php#4809

Form 4089: http://dor.mo.gov/forms/4809.pdf

[tturedraider]

Back in the day it was very common for a seller wanting to sell his financed car in the private market to go to his local bank or credit union and get a "90 day signature loan" to pay off his installment auto loan so he could have the title free and clear for the sale. I'm not sure how well that works today, because back then loan balances tended to be much smaller. But this used to be a very standard practice for banks. Of course, another difference today is that back then it was much more common that the seller's local bank or credit union also held the original installment loan.

[bmbweber]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Back in the day it was very common for a seller wanting to sell his financed car in the private market to go to his local bank or credit union and get a "90 day signature loan" to pay off his loan so he could have the title free and clear for the sale. I'm not sure how well that works today, because back then loan balances tended to be much smaller. But this used to be a very standard practice for banks.

Seems feasible. I've also read to open an escrow account, but that seems rather tedious and I feel there has to be some easier way.

[tex2670]

Originally Posted by bmbweber

Yes I can.



This was sort of my thinking, or do an electronic payoff using my account directly withdrawn from my end. Only thing that worries me is without any documentation
from BMWFNA, what do I have to ensure the titles comes to me, instead of BMW sending it to him?

Here's my itinerary:
1.) Inspect and drive car and determine it is as described.
2.) Go to Bank, sign bill of sale, letter of guarantee of transfer of title, and sign over "Lien Title."
3.) Pay off remainder of lien to BMWFNA from my account.
4.) Have cashiers Check written out for remainder, and then deposited into his account (We both use BofA).

Anything I could be missing?

Hmm. You can't be the first person to be in this situation, so there must be a mechanism for BMWFNA to send the paperwork directly to you; or if they mistakenly send to the seller, to get a duplicate title.

[bmbweber]

Originally Posted by tex2670

Hmm. You can't be the first person to be in this situation, so there must be a mechanism for BMWFNA to send the paperwork directly to you; or if they mistakenly send to the seller, to get a duplicate title.

Guessing I'll have to wait until monday morning to call BMWFNA when they open. Dealerships haven't been any help

[tex2670]

Originally Posted by bmbweber

Guessing I'll have to wait until monday morning to call BMWFNA when they open. Dealerships haven't been any help

Of course not. No $$ in it for them.

[Kabrich]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Back in the day it was very common for a seller wanting to sell his financed car in the private market to go to his local bank or credit union and get a "90 day signature loan" to pay off his installment auto loan so he could have the title free and clear for the sale. I'm not sure how well that works today, because back then loan balances tended to be much smaller. But this used to be a very standard practice for banks. Of course, another difference today is that back then it was much more common that the seller's local bank or credit union also held the original installment loan.

Back in the day they didn't charge upfront points for loans either - which is pretty much standard for bank loans today.

[Kabrich]

Originally Posted by tex2670

Of course not. No $$ in it for them.

Yep. Another example of why they charge ~$600 in paperwork fees for car sales.

And they cannot get involved with a 3rd party sale without opening themselves to liability if something goes wrong (or car has issue) so they will not want to get involved.

Not only that, but as you stated, they are agent to originate loans pre-approved by BMWFS.

They are not able to release an obligation to BMWFS unless they transfer funds to BMWFS for payoff.

[Atx328]

An easy way I have dealt with this in the past is to send a cashiers check in the full amount to the lien holder. They take out the portion needed to release the lien and then refund the overage to the seller.

[wilbur_the_goose]

If you have any attorney friends, this would be the time to call in a chit.

[cfm56d7b]

Call BMWFS and speak to a representative to learn the exact steps required to complete the transaction.

The transaction may require several days. The reputation and integrity of the seller is the most important item. While the paperwork is being processed, the vehicle should not be driven and kept in a safe location.

With a bill of sale, you can obtain temporary plates from your local DMV and fly to pick up the car. Some states require plates to be surrendered when the vehicle is sold out of state.