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      12-10-2016, 04:00 AM   #1
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400bhp, do I need to upgrade intercooler?

Before I pull the plug, do I really need to upgrade the intercooler on my M2? I'm currently running about 400bhp and 435ft/lbs torque. Only real mod outwith the piggy back is the mpe.
On the dyno I was seeing Temps of 75 deg c between runs, recovery was quite quick but obviously real world is different and those temperatures will be different (less) . It's too cold and wet to get any good results regarding heat soak etc. now.


I live in the UK so Temps are never that high, average summer is about 16 deg c.

Don't want to upgrade if I don't need too but would welcome some input on this.

Last edited by kiysersosae; 01-03-2017 at 03:04 AM..
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      12-10-2016, 06:08 AM   #2
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I heard from Dinan that a IC does have gains though minimal, at above 5K.

More importantly, cooler IAT helps hit target load easier, makes more consistent and reliable power.

The only concern would be turbo lag introduction from a bigger IC. Tune/piggyback can make a sharper throttle response to make that lag less noticeable. But the fact the air has to fill up a bigger room before entering cylinders is a hard fact.

I myself am on the fence on IC route, especially when not ready for big build.
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      12-10-2016, 07:56 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
I heard from Dinan that a IC does have gains though minimal, at above 5K.

More importantly, cooler IAT helps hit target load easier, makes more consistent and reliable power.

The only concern would be turbo lag introduction from a bigger IC. Tune/piggyback can make a sharper throttle response to make that lag less noticeable. But the fact the air has to fill up a bigger room before entering cylinders is a hard fact.

I myself am on the fence on IC route, especially when not ready for big build.
Well I'm looking at the forge intercooler, and they are claiming that the pressure drop is improved over the stock ic - not sure how. The intercooler itself is bar/plate and is not a step down intercooler, it's a little wider and a bit deeper. I prefer this design as it won't cover the radiator too much.

Its a tough decision.
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      12-10-2016, 08:16 AM   #4
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What piggyback are you running?
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      12-10-2016, 11:14 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich8102 View Post
What piggyback are you running?
Stienbauer... Had it on the dyno at 398bhp 430 ft/lbs torque. I think it would have produced a bit more had it not been heat soaking. Ignition timing was being pulled to about 2 degrees, hopefully with the intercooler it will fix this, at least on the dyno. Still though, I'm not 100% sure on going for the intercooler.
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      12-10-2016, 11:23 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiysersosae View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich8102 View Post
What piggyback are you running?
Stienbauer... Had it on the dyno at 398bhp 430 ft/lbs torque. I think it would have produced a bit more had it not been heat soaking. Ignition timing was being pulled to about 2 degrees, hopefully with the intercooler it will fix this, at least on the dyno. Still though, I'm not 100% sure on going for the intercooler.
Piggyback alone doesn't get you 30BHP. With a IC, maybe it will.
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      12-10-2016, 11:41 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiysersosae View Post
Before I pull the plug, do I really need to upgrade the intercooler on my M2? I'm currently running about 400bhp and 435ft/lbs torque. Only real mod outwit the piggy back is mpe. On the dyno I was seeing Temps of 75 deg c between runs, recovery was quite quick but obviously real world is different and those temperatures will be different. It's too cdl and wet to get any good results regarding heat soak etc. now.


I live in the UK so Temps are never that high, average summer is about 16 deg c.

Don't want to upgrade if I don't need too but would welcome some input on this.
You don't see those gains typically in a one gear pull. It's when your driving hard for a period of time. I think an upgraded IC is my next mod. When you look at how much timing and boost is pulled with a stock intercooler delta of 30 degrees or more you start to see the benefits.

I've seen some IC's on this car actually drop IAT delta's through multiple gear pulls which could mean 30whp gains if the car is heat soaked. For sure worth it.
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      12-10-2016, 12:07 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Piggyback alone doesn't get you 30BHP. With a IC, maybe it will.
Well it did! http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...1311280&page=2

although the stock run was not accounted for as I thought the remote was set up and it wasn't, the piggyback was permanently switched on while in the dyno shop... My bad! Il get it in after Xmas to nail the stock and piggy back runs and see what delta we get.

Last edited by kiysersosae; 01-03-2017 at 03:07 AM..
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      12-10-2016, 07:05 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiysersosae View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Piggyback alone doesn't get you 30BHP. With a IC, maybe it will.
Well it did! http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...amp;amp;page=2

although the stock run was not accounted for as I thought the remote was set up and it wasn't, the piggyback wasn't permanently on while in the dyno shop... My bad! Il get it in after Xmas to nail the stock and piggy back runs and see what delta we get.
Just realized you posted earlier on your piggyback dyno.

I'd appreciate if you do these back to back:
1) Stock
2) Piggyback only as you are now
3) DP & IC on stock tune
4) DP & IC on piggyback

Comparing #3 & #2 is meaningful, because I suspect stock car doesn't even hit stock tune load target at top end - this thing is desperate for timing if the significant power gain out of higher octane alone is any indication. The DP and IC helps turbo work easier with much less heat soak, which probably a stock tune would be taking good advantage of.

My money would be on #3 beats #2 Looking forward to your results.
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      12-14-2016, 12:45 PM   #10
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I would upgrade the intercooler, something like Wagner EVO 1 should be enough
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      12-14-2016, 01:09 PM   #11
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Thing is, unless you are racing the thing, it doesn't really matter... On the street, your full throttle time is what, .01% of the run time? If you log it you'll be amazed how little you have it pegged which is the only time that the IC is going to matter. Its probably the last thing I'd upgrade unless it just makes you feel good. I put on a big EVO raceworks on my Audi when I strapped a big turbo on it (doubling the HP), but for the minimal gains the M2 gets via chip it hardly seems worth it. I added almost 100hp to my Bug without an IC upgrade, and it still pulls hard over in 100+ degrees in the Dallas heat all day long (street driving of course). Does it help? yes. Is it worth doing with just chip/dp for street driving at such minimal power increases? up to you, but probably not for most people. I'd only do it with a turbo upgrade myself, but YMMV.

Last edited by Spinnetti; 12-14-2016 at 01:15 PM..
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      12-14-2016, 03:00 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinnetti View Post
Thing is, unless you are racing the thing, it doesn't really matter... On the street, your full throttle time is what, .01% of the run time? If you log it you'll be amazed how little you have it pegged which is the only time that the IC is going to matter. Its probably the last thing I'd upgrade unless it just makes you feel good. I put on a big EVO raceworks on my Audi when I strapped a big turbo on it (doubling the HP), but for the minimal gains the M2 gets via chip it hardly seems worth it. I added almost 100hp to my Bug without an IC upgrade, and it still pulls hard over in 100+ degrees in the Dallas heat all day long (street driving of course). Does it help? yes. Is it worth doing with just chip/dp for street driving at such minimal power increases? up to you, but probably not for most people. I'd only do it with a turbo upgrade myself, but YMMV.
On that then, would an upgrade to a 300cel DP have an affect on cooling in the sense that the scavenging for the turbo is better, so less heat build up? If it would then surely this would be the favorable option giving that there is also a small increase in power.
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      12-14-2016, 03:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiysersosae View Post
On that then, would an upgrade to a 300cel DP have an affect on cooling in the sense that the scavenging for the turbo is better, so less heat build up? If it would then surely this would be the favorable option giving that there is also a small increase in power.
Its hard to say without real research/hard data. Air flow through the system is very complex, but my intuition is generally that a downpipe is worth doing - might not be but I routinely do it anyway lol. Most software squeezes out a bit more power with a DP, and I'm all in favor of reducing underhood temps which most of them help with, though they almost universally reduce CAT efficiency in the process (slower "light off"). I'm still waiting on getting an allocation for an M2, but am tempted by an used S7 - different class of car, but 600hp and 3.5sec or better 0-60 with chip and DPs pulling 1g in the corners sure is tempting!
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      12-14-2016, 05:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiysersosae View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinnetti View Post
Thing is, unless you are racing the thing, it doesn't really matter... On the street, your full throttle time is what, .01% of the run time? If you log it you'll be amazed how little you have it pegged which is the only time that the IC is going to matter. Its probably the last thing I'd upgrade unless it just makes you feel good. I put on a big EVO raceworks on my Audi when I strapped a big turbo on it (doubling the HP), but for the minimal gains the M2 gets via chip it hardly seems worth it. I added almost 100hp to my Bug without an IC upgrade, and it still pulls hard over in 100+ degrees in the Dallas heat all day long (street driving of course). Does it help? yes. Is it worth doing with just chip/dp for street driving at such minimal power increases? up to you, but probably not for most people. I'd only do it with a turbo upgrade myself, but YMMV.
On that then, would an upgrade to a 300cel DP have an affect on cooling in the sense that the scavenging for the turbo is better, so less heat build up? If it would then surely this would be the favorable option giving that there is also a small increase in power.
DP reduces the back pressure, so turbo doesn't have to rev as hard as it would without DP to achieve any given boost, which means the compressed air will be a little bit cooler throughout the rpm band.
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      12-21-2016, 08:31 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiysersosae View Post
do I really need to upgrade the intercooler on my M2? I'm currently running about 400bhp and 435ft/lbs torque.
Short answer, no.

I'm at your power/tq levels. When I upgrade to stage 4, an IC will be going on as it's required.
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      12-21-2016, 04:07 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auf Deutsch View Post
Short answer, no.

I'm at your power/tq levels. When I upgrade to stage 4, an IC will be going on as it's required.
I'm going to run the car on Friday and Saturday so il give it some beans and record inlet Temps and timing.
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      01-02-2017, 10:27 AM   #17
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Quote:
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I'm going to run the car on Friday and Saturday so il give it some beans and record inlet Temps and timing.
Any data log available to share with?
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      01-03-2017, 03:01 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Any data log available to share with?

No, it was too cold and slippy to get any strong consistent pulls, I'll need to wait until March I think. What I did notice was the temperature outside was around 4deg c and sitting at 70mph on the motorway the Temps were around 19deg C which I thought was high.

Last edited by kiysersosae; 01-03-2017 at 03:10 AM..
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