[Hegge]

Looking to purchase summer of 2017. What would be better M2 vs RS3 sedan in terms of:

0-60
handling
power
nimbleness
fun factor

[auf Deutsch]

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1309591

0-60 and power should go in the RS3's favor (higher HP, slightly less overall weight), as does wet/snowy handling. The 50/50 weight balance coupled with RWD benefits the dry handling and nimbleness of the M2. In terms of the fun factor which IMO supersedes everything else, if you poll 100 people, 99 will say the M2 is (a lot) more fun. The lone person voting for the RS3 probably has an IQ of below 70.

[No Boost]

Originally Posted by auf Deutsch

The lone person voting for the RS3 probably has an IQ of below 70.

Burn

[nd2002]

Originally Posted by Hegge

Looking to purchase summer of 2017. What would be better M2 vs RS3 sedan in terms of:

0-60
handling
power
nimbleness
fun factor

Unless you stop light drag race or need 4 doors or AWD, get the M2. I was considering the same choices (with TTRS thrown in the mix).

The 5-cyl engine sounds pretty sweet, too. I'm coming from Audi, so I don't carry too much hate for it

[quikM2]

I like audi and am coming from an S4 but once they put M drive on more than the M5 imo BMW is going to really start taking their sales. Unless you buy sports cars on interiors...

[csbear]

Originally Posted by auf Deutsch

In terms of the fun factor which IMO supersedes everything else, if you poll 100 people, 99 will say the M2 is (a lot) more fun. The lone person voting for the RS3 probably has an IQ of below 70.

I am most likely going for the M2, but also have the RS3 and TTRS on my list. One problem I have with Audi is the snail pace they release cars. I understand they have a different release cycle compared to Mercedes and BMW, but man, the F80/82 and C63S have been out for a while, and so far nothing from Audi about the RS cars. It is like they are scared to compete with BMW and Merc.

[Verdi]

Audi has always released the RS cars very late in the model cycle. It's probably because they first want to sell the S models?

[No Boost]

Originally Posted by csbear

I am most likely going for the M2, but also have the RS3 and TTRS on my list. One problem I have with Audi is the snail pace they release cars. I understand they have a different release cycle compared to Mercedes and BMW, but man, the F80/82 and C63S have been out for a while, and so far nothing from Audi about the RS cars. It is like they are scared to compete with BMW and Merc.

Snail pace to non existent....I was never interested in the GTI/R32/R but I have to say, the R400 really caught my attention. Hopes were high on a 400 HP, lightweight car which at one point, had mention of a 6MT coming to the states with a sub $50k price tag. Poof gone, cant compete with the Audi RS3 which, I'll bet you will cost close to $60k base, with the TTRS being even more.

As far as competing with BMW and Benz. I'm of the belief that the Audi heads have a superiority complex whereby they think RS models trump M and AMG which is obviously laughable. Folks on here have said Audi dealers give potential buyers a hard time with test drives because RS models are Ferrari-esque in stature. Talk about a turn-off to the brand. Audi will release their models when they're good and ready...they have no competition.

[Verdi]

I have no hard facts to support my claim but isn't RS engines much less reliable than M and AMG engines? With some exceptions of course. That M5 V10 for instance.

[slashrawr]

Originally Posted by auf Deutsch

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1309591

0-60 and power should go in the RS3's favor (higher HP, slightly less overall weight), as does wet/snowy handling. The 50/50 weight balance coupled with RWD benefits the dry handling and nimbleness of the M2. In terms of the fun factor which IMO supersedes everything else, if you poll 100 people, 99 will say the M2 is (a lot) more fun. The lone person voting for the RS3 probably has an IQ of below 70.

It's hilarious to see comments like these made by people who haven't even driven both cars in question....it's fanboyism at it's finest.

Hegge : I can give you my impressions of them on the street having driven both the current M2 and RS3...

0-60 - RS3 by a long way. My wife likened it to the feeling of a rollercoaster.
handling - M2 no doubt. It's just so direct and pin point sharp.
power - Actual power goes to the RS3...but delivery of that power goes to the M2.
nimbleness - RS3 ever so slightly. I think this is due to the shorter dimensions and wheelbase, and lower weight. It may well also be simply down to me being more comfortable with AWD than RWD cars.
fun factor - Totally subjective...both are epic fun but in different ways. The M2 is fun - for me at least - because of the challenge it presents (high power, RWD, short wheelbase). The RS3 on the other hand is just an absolute riot to drive...the noise coupled with the outright pace and worry free cornering that allows you to exploit more of the cars potential more of the time, all make it outrageously fun.

The RS3 sedan (and facelift sportback) is just going to up the ante...more power from a lighter engine is a great start.

M2 though has something special about it which is somewhat ineffable but I also believe it's something not everyone "gets"; case in point, on the YouTubes the likes of Archie Hamilton and SoL.

To summarise, the numbers don't tell the whole story. If you only care about the numbers the RS3 is the go. If you want something that feels (and makes you feel) special, the M2 is probably the better bet. Either way, you can't go wrong.

[Transfer]

The M2 will be the more fun car and probably not that much slower than RS3 from a roll. What gets me is this time of year with wet, cold, sometimes snowy, and always hilly Seattle... AWD really does have a place. I can drive significantly faster and under more control in my 235xi than I could in my prior E90 M3. So the driving environment can really affect what ends up being a pro or a con when comparing.

Thinking about the RS3 though, who knows when it will get to the US or how much it will cost. A starting price of $60k or higher would not surprise me and they will likely be more limited than the M2.

[auf Deutsch]

Originally Posted by slashrawr

It's hilarious to see comments like these made by people who haven't even driven both cars in question....it's fanboyism at it's finest.

While I admit I am a fanboy, (at this point who isn't. Rave reviews have been across the board) I don't feel the need to drive the RS3 to know that it's an understeering, FWD biased, automatic tranny only, borderline sterile automobile with its engine placement mostly forward of the front axle. By most accounts, its best attributes are off-the-line quick launches and confidence inspiring driving dynamics. Aesthetically speaking, there's not much difference from the A3/S3. Here's another win for the M2 against the TTRS, a car superior to the RS3 with exception of utility space:

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1333702

[slashrawr]

Originally Posted by auf Deutsch

While I admit I am a fanboy, (at this point who isn't. Rave reviews have been across the board) I don't feel the need to drive the RS3 to know that it's an understeering, FWD biased, automatic tranny only, borderline sterile automobile with its engine placement mostly forward of the front axle. By most accounts, its best attributes are off-the-line quick launches and confidence inspiring driving dynamics. Aesthetically speaking, there's not much difference from the A3/S3. Here's another win for the M2 against the TTRS, a car superior to the RS3 with exception of utility space:

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1333702

That's just it though, you are making recommendations to some people and insulting others based on nothing more than reading reviews...you haven't driven them. I mean you talk about a "borderline sterile automobile", the engine, exhaust and interior are anything but...then again you wouldn't know that, because you've never been in the presence of one. To make it worse, some of your statements are just wrong; the RS3 can send 100% torque to the rear for example.

It's OK to have preferences; you prefer manuals, you find RWD more fun, you want a car to look aggressive and that's all good. But don't go bashing something you have no experience with or basis of measure for; that's just asinine.

As far as that "win" goes, did you actually look at the individual scores? It wins in things like roominess, having better rear seats, and a massive win for safety assistance, but in fact in terms of "driving" and "driving behaviour" the TTRS matches or beats the M2!

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by slashrawr

As far as that "win" goes, did you actually look at the individual scores? It wins in things like roominess, having better rear seats, and a massive win for safety assistance, but in fact in terms of "driving" and "driving behaviour" the TTRS matches or beats the M2!

Let's see. Are we reading the same test?

The M2 wins:
Driving pleasure
Performance
Handling/Driving fun

They are equal at:
Pulling power
Steering
Gearbox
Sound impression

The TT RS wins:
Acceleration/Top speed
In Gear acceleration
Driving dynamics
Traction/Suitable for winter
Stability/wind sensitivity


In fact the M2 beats the TT RS at everything but the driving behaviour section where the TT RS takes it due to it's 4wd and lesser wind sensitivity (it's lower).

In other words. The M2 is better at everything but acceleration and traction/stability because it's got 30 hp less, is taller and got rwd.

I know for a fact that I'd much rather have the M2 than an Audi that understeers. No matter how fast it is in a straight line. Where I live we have speed limits.

As for personal experience vs reading tests. First of all. Which words have more weight? An experienced car journalist who's tested the cars on a track extensively at the same conditions or some random dude on the internet who's had test drives with the cars or something like that?

[BEM-S4]

I've driven the current RS3 and if the M2 isn't practical for you for whatever reason i.e. Need 4 doors or AWD, I'd definitely give the Audi some serious thought. Is it as much fun on a warm day on the track? Definitely not. But it's better than anything else out there if you have needs that the M2 doesn't meet.

[slashrawr]

Originally Posted by Verdi

Let's see. Are we reading the same test?

The M2 wins:
Driving pleasure
Performance
Handling/Driving fun

They are equal at:
Pulling power
Steering
Gearbox
Sound impression

The TT RS wins:
Acceleration/Top speed
In Gear acceleration
Driving dynamics
Traction/Suitable for winter
Stability/wind sensitivity


In fact the M2 beats the TT RS at everything but the driving behaviour section where the TT RS takes it due to it's 4wd and lesser wind sensitivity (it's lower).

In other words. The M2 is better at everything but acceleration and traction/stability because it's got 30 hp less, is taller and got rwd.

I know for a fact that I'd much rather have the M2 than an Audi that understeers. No matter how fast it is in a straight line. Where I live we have speed limits.

As for personal experience vs reading tests. First of all. Which words have more weight? An experienced car journalist who's tested the cars on a track extensively at the same conditions or some random dude on the internet who's had test drives with the cars or something like that?

Driving pleasure is subjective, as is "driving fun". In handling the M2 may well be better, it is exquisite. In my post I did actually say exactly that: it's even on "driving" but TTRS wins in "driving behaviour" which seems to be crux of auf Deutsch's argument against the RS3 with which it shares much of it's underpinnings. So I was pointing out the irony.

It's odd you say you don't want an Audi that understeers but say you have speed limits which themselves would prevent you from getting anywhere near the point to where an RS3 or TTRS would actually understeer. At legal, public road speeds the RS3 will quite easily handle anything you throw at it with absolutely zero understeer. Yes that changes on a track when driven at 10/10ths, but if you're treating public roads like a race track that's a debate for another thread.

Well you see, I don't base my car purchases on reviews alone, I actually test drive them to see which I prefer. There are several issues with taking journalists' words for gospel. For instance, most times the tests are performed on a track which is the setting these cars will see the least, if indeed at all. With these track tests come all the cool powersliding and fun, and here's where stuff starts to get a bit muddy. For a very small portion of the population is this actually relevant. Would I love to go powersliding around a track? Of course! Would I do it in my brand new M2? Not so much! The problem is, journalists put such a large emphasis on how the cars perform on a track giving consumers false expectations for how they perform day-to-day in the real world where there a pot marked roads, traffic to sit in and inclement weather. Not to mention you can't go from apex-to-apex taking a perfect racing line on public roads, so how is their track performance representative? The other problem with track reviews is they'll often involve a...tame racing driver...who is actually capable of extracting every ounce of performance from a powerful, RWD car, something the vast majority of us mere mortals cannot. So while they may be able to set a blistering lap time and beat their own time set in an AWD car, I would wager cash-money that most people would have better and more consistent times in an AWD car. So again, expectations set by journalists are unrepresentative. Then there's all the subjective stuff like which is more fun or which looks better. What journalists perceive as fun or better looking, is not necessarily the same for you or I. I personally like sleepers, for numerous reasons; surprise factor, less risk of vandalism, less attention from police. The M2 will be the most out-there looking car I've owned, and I think it's gorgeous but I also realise it's not for everyone..I LOVE THE FANGS!!!! In terms of fun, I think a good example would be DCT vs manual. Some people insist on manual because to them, that's part of the fun, but others think manually shifting a DCT is just as much, if not more fun. But you will hear time and time again journalists harking on about how we must have the M2 with a manual. Who are they to tell me what is best for my situation and preferences? Ironically I've ordered a manual (and may still change my mind) but that was because I wanted something different having driven dual clutches for the last 8 years.

Having said that, my beef here is not with journalist reviews; I love reviews, I actively seek them out - after all, a broader range of views and information can be worthwhile. But I don't take them as gospel and I certainly don't make recommendations to people or insult others based on opinions I've formed solely from those reviews like auf Deutsch did. Having driven both on real roads with real traffic and real curbs and real hoon laws, I would say I'm qualified to give my opinion and you'll see if nothing else, it was an honest one; I gave credit where credit was due without being swayed by fanboy bias.

[Verdi]

Fair points.

I was driving Audis for 11 years and had some less positive experiences that will make it near impossible to buy another for a very long time. Whenever I see an Audi I think "that's about to break down". I don't really consider Audi to be a true premium brand like BMW and Mercedes either.

So yeah. Fanboy over here I guess.

[brava09]

Originally Posted by Verdi

Let's see. Are we reading the same test?

The M2 wins:
Driving pleasure
Performance
Handling/Driving fun

They are equal at:
Pulling power
Steering
Gearbox
Sound impression

The TT RS wins:
Acceleration/Top speed
In Gear acceleration
Driving dynamics
Traction/Suitable for winter
Stability/wind sensitivity


In fact the M2 beats the TT RS at everything but the driving behaviour section where the TT RS takes it due to it's 4wd and lesser wind sensitivity (it's lower).

In other words. The M2 is better at everything but acceleration and traction/stability because it's got 30 hp less, is taller and got rwd.

I know for a fact that I'd much rather have the M2 than an Audi that understeers. No matter how fast it is in a straight line. Where I live we have speed limits.

As for personal experience vs reading tests. First of all. Which words have more weight? An experienced car journalist who's tested the cars on a track extensively at the same conditions or some random dude on the internet who's had test drives with the cars or something like that?

Well, in the other test, the TT-RS defeated the M2 exactly on handling and engine/gearbox section...as a matter of fact TT-RS is faster than the M2 on the track....in fact is faster than the 718 Cayman S too.

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1331407


So I believe they are equally good, one can't go wrong with either one. Depends on personal preference.

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by brava09

Well, in the other test, the TT-RS defeated the M2 exactly on handling and engine/gearbox section...as a matter of fact TT-RS is faster than the M2 on the track....in fact is faster than the 718 Cayman S too.

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1331407


So I believe they are equally good, one can't go wrong with either one. Depends on personal preference.

Yeah, if you wanna look like a hairdresser...

Sry.

[Spinnetti]

Originally Posted by Verdi

Fair points.

I was driving Audis for 11 years and had some less positive experiences that will make it near impossible to buy another for a very long time. Whenever I see an Audi I think "that's about to break down". I don't really consider Audi to be a true premium brand like BMW and Mercedes either.

So yeah. Fanboy over here I guess.

Curious... I've had 4 and modified the pi$$ out of a couple of them... my last A4 I had for 14yrs without any unusual problems (a few odd plastics, water pump and normal wear items) and ran 26PSI of boost on a GTRS turbo for 13 of those 14 years.... still never burned a drop of oil when I sold it. On the contrary, I'm much more worried about the frailty of the Bimmer motor - I think the term "Money Shift" was coined on BMW no? BMW and VAG all use the same suppliers so don't expect it to be different. All this stuff is just anecdotal either way. I'm sure I'd be happy with either car for different reasons... but will get tired of waiting for an allocation for the M2 and a release date for the RS3... .idly toying with getting a used 997 Carrera while I wait which I think I might like better than either.

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by Spinnetti

Curious... I've had 4 and modified the pi$$ out of a couple of them... my last A4 I had for 14yrs without any unusual problems (a few odd plastics, water pump and normal wear items) and ran 26PSI of boost on a GTRS turbo for 13 of those 14 years.... still never burned a drop of oil when I sold it. On the contrary, I'm much more worried about the frailty of the Bimmer motor - I think the term "Money Shift" was coined on BMW no? BMW and VAG all use the same suppliers so don't expect it to be different. All this stuff is just anecdotal either way. I'm sure I'd be happy with either car for different reasons... but will get tired of waiting for an allocation for the M2 and a release date for the RS3... .idly toying with getting a used 997 Carrera while I wait which I think I might like better than either.

I know. But it's still impossible for me to buy another Audi. I just don't like them.

[slashrawr]

Originally Posted by Verdi

I know. But it's still impossible for me to buy another Audi. I just don't like them.

And you know what...that's OK.