Front drive shaft early failure sign?

PhaseP · 11-05-2016, 08:45 PM

Today while changing engine oil decided to do some visual inspection under the car, and found red/orange fine dust residue on the front drive shaft u-joint at transfer case side. I think this is from one of the u-joint bearings starting to rust. I suppose eventually this will result in catastrophic breakage of the u-joint as I have seen some other people shared their pictures. I tried to feel if it had some play, and it felt like it did, but it was difficult to be certain since the transfer case gear has a good amount of play itself.

The rust dust is covering only 1 quarter of the shaft, which is making me more believe it is really from one of the bearings. The seal must have let some water in and started to rust.

I will be replacing it regardless, don't want to risk eventual breakage of the shaft and taking out whatever around it.

What do you guys think?

floydarogers · 11-05-2016, 09:38 PM

Although the yokes are rather rusty, note that the seals of the bearings are pretty clean and not leaking. No grease drippings are apparent, so the inner seals are also good.

That metal is so thick that the rust is essentially superficial, and of no concern IMO.

PhaseP · 11-05-2016, 10:37 PM

Thanks for the response.

I am not worried about the surface rust which is brownish. If I were to worry about surface rust I should have gotten rid of the car at least 5 years ago.

That red orangish fine dust rust is not surface rust, it is very fine dust. As you can see it has gone on to white plastic flange on t-case side too. It is coming from inside one particular u-joint connection as far as I can tell.

As the pictures show, it is only found at 1 quarter turn of the shaft, like only 90 degrees of the axle out of the full 360.

I do think this indicates it is only coming from one particular joint of the u-joint.
And it being fine dust makes me believe there is some play, rubbing that is grinding any new rust developing in that area into fine dust like that. The bearing seal may be fine, I can't tell, but at least there seems to be some play. The acceptable spec for this drive shaft I had read was practically zero play from what I remember. Play will get worse I believe by time.

The u-joint and bearings looks very much same made like the one I found on the steering shaft u-joint. I had taken one apart on steering shaft u-joint to see what they look like. They are roller pin bearings and have very small amount of grease because there is very little empty space in the bearing.

I will replace it. This wasn't there last year this time.

There seems to be low mileage used ones available for $180 or so. Not worth the risk of leaving this one like that. Brand new BMW one is rip off of close to a grand.

Yangorang · 11-05-2016, 11:23 PM

How many miles on your car? All these stories of broken front drive shafts make me nervous as an xi owner...
Fortunately there is a shop nearby me that makes reman driveshafts and they're supposed to be pretty good: http://www.beyerdriveline.com/driveshafts/

PhaseP · 11-05-2016, 11:24 PM

Did some searching at Google and this is inline with my suspicion and conclusion:

"A sure sign of something breaking up inside the bearings of a joint is rust-coloured dust around the spider. Fit a new joint or shaft immediately."

https://www.howacarworks.com/transmi...check-u-joints

And I think technically this is a kind of "Fretting"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fretting

"Fretting damage in steel can be identified by the presence of a pitted surface and fine 'red' iron oxide dust resembling cocoa powder. Strictly this debris is not 'rust' as its production requires no water. The particles are much harder than the steel surfaces in contact, so abrasive wear is inevitable; however, particulates are not required to initiate fret"

I sure am going to replace it! Actually glad that I caught it before it did break eventually.

My stick shifts had started to get more difficult recently, I had opened up the underbelly cover to check transmission fluid and top it off if necessary. That is how I have seen this one. By the way my transmission fluid was low, and I topped off with the remainder of the bottle I had used at 60K to replace the fluid. (It is manual transmission). Today I noticed again the sticker they put on the transmission at factor. Says "Use MLTL-2 and do not change the fluid, it is life long" What a joke, life long my ...!! My shifts got better immediately after driving with the topping off. I Plan to do a full oil replacement of tranny soon. I didn't see any leaks from transmission, don't know how it got low. I couldn't see where the shifter link goes into the transmission, maybe it is leaking from there. But it should eventually be coming down somewhere.

My t-case oil was very low also when I had replaced the oil at 90K, with no apparent leakage also. If I hadn't replaced it, it would have been broken by this time already. That is also "life-long", supposedly...
The car is really starting to show its age... mechanically.. outside and inside looks still pretty good.

PhaseP · 11-05-2016, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yangorang

How many miles on your car? All these stories of broken front drive shafts make me nervous as an xi owner...
Fortunately there is a shop nearby me that makes reman driveshafts and they're supposed to be pretty good: http://www.beyerdriveline.com/driveshafts/

10 years old, 109K miles. With salty winters.

PhaseP · 11-05-2016, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yangorang

How many miles on your car? All these stories of broken front drive shafts make me nervous as an xi owner...
Fortunately there is a shop nearby me that makes reman driveshafts and they're supposed to be pretty good: http://www.beyerdriveline.com/driveshafts/

Thanks for the link. On the OEM shaft the u-joint caps are held in place by press pinched points on the yolks, making them not serviceable. This company from pictures at their page looks like instead of this are machining a circular groove and using circlips to hold them in place. If this was done at factory in the first place, it could be serviceable easily. Apparently pinching the metal with a press is cheaper and quicker to manufacture. And then selling a simple front drive shaft for $1000 is priceless

Yangorang · 11-06-2016, 12:10 AM

Hmm...that front drive shaft sounds like potentially something to replace preventative at 100k for xi owners.

FYI the transfer case is supposed to throw some code when it needs a fluid change - it doesn't show up as a light on the dash though.

PhaseP · 11-06-2016, 12:16 AM

Quote:

FYI the transfer case is supposed to throw some code when it needs a fluid change - it doesn't show up as a light on the dash though.

I heard read about that, but yet to read anybody seeing really that supposed code ever thrown. And the code supposedly (if indeed it does exist) is for when the "quality" of the t-case oil gets low as far as I know.

Mine didn't have any code with the fluid very low, I know by how much I had drained. I have an INPA setup and check the codes from time to time.

OffensiveDriver · 11-11-2016, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhaseP

10 years old, 109K miles. With salty winters.

It looks like you're driving in the ocean.

PhaseP · 11-13-2016, 08:29 PM

I was able to replace the front drive shaft today. Upon inspection out side of the car, that u-joint was badly binding, only moving a few degrees freely. The front differential side u-joint was fine. No play though, yet.

It did need replacement.

The latest version of the part is 26208628042 and latest cars having it is E84 X1:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=26208628042

I found a used one from a 2015 X1, low mileage.

TSRxi · 11-14-2016, 03:48 PM

So after about a year of hearing this annoying ticking sound mostly under deceleration.. I got under my e90 335xi and spent a good 20 min looking at everything. I see the rust around the rear front driveshaft. But mine has about 2mm of play in it. Its got to be the noise I am hearing. I ordered one of the carparts.com units.. Figured for $180 worth a shot.

I did buy a good used front diff.. doubt I will need it now. ONly has 55k miles for a manual .... if anyone is looking let me know.

PhaseP · 12-04-2016, 09:08 PM

This is what looks like inside that joint. The grease had washed off and the pins being much harder metal had been eating into the spider. No wonder why it wasn't rotating. The rust on the roller pins are not of the pins, it is from the other surface.
I had been noticing some vibration going uphill while accelerating for more than a year. I wonder this was the source of it.

11-05-2016, 08:45 PM	#1
PhaseP Colonel 1007 Rep 2,108 Posts Drives: 325XI Join Date: May 2010 Location: Earth iTrader: (0)	Front drive shaft early failure sign? Today while changing engine oil decided to do some visual inspection under the car, and found red/orange fine dust residue on the front drive shaft u-joint at transfer case side. I think this is from one of the u-joint bearings starting to rust. I suppose eventually this will result in catastrophic breakage of the u-joint as I have seen some other people shared their pictures. I tried to feel if it had some play, and it felt like it did, but it was difficult to be certain since the transfer case gear has a good amount of play itself. The rust dust is covering only 1 quarter of the shaft, which is making me more believe it is really from one of the bearings. The seal must have let some water in and started to rust. I will be replacing it regardless, don't want to risk eventual breakage of the shaft and taking out whatever around it. What do you guys think? Attached Images Last edited by PhaseP; 02-11-2017 at 05:28 PM..
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11-05-2016, 09:38 PM	#2
floydarogers Curmudgeon and Pedant 690 Rep 3,489 Posts Drives: 2010 335d, 2014 328d Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Bellevue, WA iTrader: (0)	Although the yokes are rather rusty, note that the seals of the bearings are pretty clean and not leaking. No grease drippings are apparent, so the inner seals are also good. That metal is so thick that the rust is essentially superficial, and of no concern IMO.
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11-05-2016, 10:37 PM	#3
PhaseP Colonel 1007 Rep 2,108 Posts Drives: 325XI Join Date: May 2010 Location: Earth iTrader: (0)	Thanks for the response. I am not worried about the surface rust which is brownish. If I were to worry about surface rust I should have gotten rid of the car at least 5 years ago. That red orangish fine dust rust is not surface rust, it is very fine dust. As you can see it has gone on to white plastic flange on t-case side too. It is coming from inside one particular u-joint connection as far as I can tell. As the pictures show, it is only found at 1 quarter turn of the shaft, like only 90 degrees of the axle out of the full 360. I do think this indicates it is only coming from one particular joint of the u-joint. And it being fine dust makes me believe there is some play, rubbing that is grinding any new rust developing in that area into fine dust like that. The bearing seal may be fine, I can't tell, but at least there seems to be some play. The acceptable spec for this drive shaft I had read was practically zero play from what I remember. Play will get worse I believe by time. The u-joint and bearings looks very much same made like the one I found on the steering shaft u-joint. I had taken one apart on steering shaft u-joint to see what they look like. They are roller pin bearings and have very small amount of grease because there is very little empty space in the bearing. I will replace it. This wasn't there last year this time. There seems to be low mileage used ones available for $180 or so. Not worth the risk of leaving this one like that. Brand new BMW one is rip off of close to a grand.
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11-05-2016, 11:23 PM	#4
Yangorang Second Lieutenant 65 Rep 231 Posts Drives: 2008 BMW 328xi Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Houston, TX iTrader: (0)	How many miles on your car? All these stories of broken front drive shafts make me nervous as an xi owner... Fortunately there is a shop nearby me that makes reman driveshafts and they're supposed to be pretty good: http://www.beyerdriveline.com/driveshafts/
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11-05-2016, 11:24 PM	#5
PhaseP Colonel 1007 Rep 2,108 Posts Drives: 325XI Join Date: May 2010 Location: Earth iTrader: (0)	Did some searching at Google and this is inline with my suspicion and conclusion: "A sure sign of something breaking up inside the bearings of a joint is rust-coloured dust around the spider. Fit a new joint or shaft immediately." https://www.howacarworks.com/transmi...check-u-joints And I think technically this is a kind of "Fretting" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fretting "Fretting damage in steel can be identified by the presence of a pitted surface and fine 'red' iron oxide dust resembling cocoa powder. Strictly this debris is not 'rust' as its production requires no water. The particles are much harder than the steel surfaces in contact, so abrasive wear is inevitable; however, particulates are not required to initiate fret" I sure am going to replace it! Actually glad that I caught it before it did break eventually. My stick shifts had started to get more difficult recently, I had opened up the underbelly cover to check transmission fluid and top it off if necessary. That is how I have seen this one. By the way my transmission fluid was low, and I topped off with the remainder of the bottle I had used at 60K to replace the fluid. (It is manual transmission). Today I noticed again the sticker they put on the transmission at factor. Says "Use MLTL-2 and do not change the fluid, it is life long" What a joke, life long my ...!! My shifts got better immediately after driving with the topping off. I Plan to do a full oil replacement of tranny soon. I didn't see any leaks from transmission, don't know how it got low. I couldn't see where the shifter link goes into the transmission, maybe it is leaking from there. But it should eventually be coming down somewhere. My t-case oil was very low also when I had replaced the oil at 90K, with no apparent leakage also. If I hadn't replaced it, it would have been broken by this time already. That is also "life-long", supposedly... The car is really starting to show its age... mechanically.. outside and inside looks still pretty good.
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11-06-2016, 12:10 AM	#8
Yangorang Second Lieutenant 65 Rep 231 Posts Drives: 2008 BMW 328xi Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Houston, TX iTrader: (0)	Hmm...that front drive shaft sounds like potentially something to replace preventative at 100k for xi owners. FYI the transfer case is supposed to throw some code when it needs a fluid change - it doesn't show up as a light on the dash though.
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11-13-2016, 08:29 PM	#11
PhaseP Colonel 1007 Rep 2,108 Posts Drives: 325XI Join Date: May 2010 Location: Earth iTrader: (0)	It was indeed on its way out I was able to replace the front drive shaft today. Upon inspection out side of the car, that u-joint was badly binding, only moving a few degrees freely. The front differential side u-joint was fine. No play though, yet. It did need replacement. The latest version of the part is 26208628042 and latest cars having it is E84 X1: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=26208628042 I found a used one from a 2015 X1, low mileage.
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11-14-2016, 03:48 PM	#12
TSRxi Enlisted Member 7 Rep 44 Posts Drives: 2008 335xi Dinan 2 Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: United States iTrader: (0)	Found the noise.... Bad ujoint So after about a year of hearing this annoying ticking sound mostly under deceleration.. I got under my e90 335xi and spent a good 20 min looking at everything. I see the rust around the rear front driveshaft. But mine has about 2mm of play in it. Its got to be the noise I am hearing. I ordered one of the carparts.com units.. Figured for $180 worth a shot. I did buy a good used front diff.. doubt I will need it now. ONly has 55k miles for a manual .... if anyone is looking let me know.
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12-04-2016, 09:08 PM	#13
PhaseP Colonel 1007 Rep 2,108 Posts Drives: 325XI Join Date: May 2010 Location: Earth iTrader: (0)	This is what looks like inside that joint. The grease had washed off and the pins being much harder metal had been eating into the spider. No wonder why it wasn't rotating. The rust on the roller pins are not of the pins, it is from the other surface. I had been noticing some vibration going uphill while accelerating for more than a year. I wonder this was the source of it. Attached Images Last edited by PhaseP; 02-11-2017 at 05:26 PM..
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