[Adem1534]

Hey guys, what are your thoughts about this?

Think it'll still be relaxed when in comfort mode?

http://www.vr-speed.com/vrsf-ceramic...2-f33-f88.html

All opinions or comments regarding anything about it are much appreciated.

[blackholescion]

FWIW, my experience with downpipes with stock catbacks has been you get a little more noise with a bit more overrun, pops, burbles, etc, but the sound is still largely the same. That is to say, in comfort mode with the flaps closed, you'd be hard pressed to tell much of a difference other than on acceleration where you'll hear more turbo spool and noise.

[LBBDrew]

The CEL makes me a bit nervous. Fabspeed just released a DP that doesn't trip one

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by LBBDrew

The CEL makes me a bit nervous. Fabspeed just released a DP that doesn't trip one

There's a $75 o2 sim that works on the N55 now, so no worries.

The fabspeed DP, in addition to costing an enormous amount of money, is catted...so it will make less power and be quieter overall...the two primary reasons for buying a DP in the first place.

OP, there are lots of threads about DPs, including the VSRF specifically, in the engine forum. For example:

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1255001

[Adem1534]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

There's a $75 o2 sim that works on the N55 now, so no worries.

The fabspeed DP, in addition to costing an enormous amount of money, is catted...so it will make less power and be quieter overall...the two primary reasons for buying a DP in the first place.

OP, there are lots of threads about DPs, including the VSRF specifically, in the engine forum. For example:

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1255001

Thanks a lot!!

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by blackholescion

FWIW, my experience with downpipes with stock catbacks has been you get a little more noise with a bit more overrun, pops, burbles, etc, but the sound is still largely the same. That is to say, in comfort mode with the flaps closed, you'd be hard pressed to tell much of a difference other than on acceleration where you'll hear more turbo spool and noise.

On an N55 with secondary, cats, I'd agree. But on one without any cats, it's a different ballgame.

There are a lot of N55 guys who swap in N55 or xdrive catted mids because the sound/drone is a bit too much for them fully catless.

Perhaps the M2 muffler does a better job quieting it down...

[PrematureApex]

But OP, I think you'll like the DP.

Maybe more importantly, you KNOW you're always going to wonder if it's for you or not. And it's cheap enough, with good resale.

Go for it, for sure.

You can always recoup most of the price if you decide it's a bit too much.

[blackholescion]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

On an N55 with secondary, cats, I'd agree. But on one without any cats, it's a different ballgame.

There are a lot of N55 guys who swap in N55 or xdrive catted mids because the sound/drone is a bit too much for them fully catless.

Perhaps the M2 muffler does a better job quieting it down...

That's great info to know as well. Every engine and exhaust system is different. I'm wondering with the ability to open and close flaps in the muffler ends up quieting things down enough. So as long as Alex doesn't remove the secondary cats, he should be more than fine with a ymmv full catless.

[Adem1534]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

But OP, I think you'll like the DP.

Maybe more importantly, you KNOW you're always going to wonder if it's for you or not. And it's cheap enough, with good resale.

Go for it, for sure.

You can always recoup most of the price if you decide it's a bit too much.

Yeah, I definitely think I'd love it. I'm just still hesitant. Never have done anything like that before. Still worried about warranty, legality, and trusting an O2 sim, which I know nothing about. Googling for an N55 one hasn't helped, I'm still confused as to what's reliable and what's bogus, and how the product even works.

Lots of unknowns for me, and I don't feel comfortable doing it unless there is nothing left unanswered. I actually found out about this DP from that thread! Great stuff in there, but I'm still a noob when it comes to DPs.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by Adem1534

Yeah, I definitely think I'd love it. I'm just still hesitant. Never have done anything like that before. Still worried about warranty, legality, and trusting an O2 sim, which I know nothing about. Googling for an N55 one hasn't helped, I'm still confused as to what's reliable and what's bogus, and how the product even works.

Lots of unknowns for me, and I don't feel comfortable doing it unless there is nothing left unanswered. I actually found out about this DP from that thread! Great stuff in there, but I'm still a noob when it comes to DPs.

Well, going catless is always going to be illegal, although not enforced anywhere. And, unless you have a mod friendly dealer, or remove the DP when taking the car in, there's always a risk with regard to engine warranty repairs. Luckily, the N55 is stout, so engine issues are rare.

Nothing to worry about using the o2 sim. Nothing is at risk using it, nothing can be harmed or anything like that. Technically, you only ever need to use it for a day or two before you take the car in for inspection with the DP on (the other alternative is to spend the hour or two removing the DP before inspection and installing the factory one).

The sim just mimics the o2 sensor's behavior if it were subjected to an exhaust stream which included a catalyst. It's based on a mathematical model of cat behavior.

This is the ONLY sim which works on an N55...and took years to develop. It was so hard to get one working on the N55, many reputable companies stopped trying (BMS, etc.):

http://www.amazon.com/simulator-****.../dp/B01A9NC26W

(Just google ****** o2 sim, and find the link on Amazon)

He developed it on the N55 forums using members as testers, only perfecting it over the winter, and got banned when he didn't register as a vendor. Good guy, and it works, 100%. Easy peasy.

Although he did raise the price...think I bought mine for $60.

[3tekcorps]

So I was chatting with a service guy at BMW regarding the warranty issues on doing a catless downpipe. According to him the current cars are now storing ECU data on the BMW cloud servers regardless of whether you bring the car in.

He literally told me that he can call into BMWNA and they pull up the VIN to see what's been going on and if it's been re-tuned and all that. I'm assuming they could also tell if it's been running for year with a CEL for the Cat being gone. Of course you're fighting an uphill battle with any warranty claim at that point.

Is this true? Seemed like a bit much, but I know my car is online.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by 3tekcorps

So I was chatting with a service guy at BMW regarding the warranty issues on doing a catless downpipe. According to him the current cars are now storing ECU data on the BMW cloud servers regardless of whether you bring the car in.

He literally told me that he can call into BMWNA and they pull up the VIN to see what's been going on and if it's been re-tuned and all that. I'm assuming they could also tell if it's been running for year with a CEL for the Cat being gone. Of course your fighting an uphill battle with any warranty claim at that point.

Is this true? Seemed like a bit much, but I know my car is online.

Personally, I think he's full of shit...But is there a way to take your car "offline"?

That being said...

A JB4, for example, is a piggyback, not a flash tune. As far as the ECU is concerned, it's running normally.

With the JB4 autoclear on, it will never allow the CEL to throw. With the o2 sim, the CEL will never be thrown, and the car thinks everything is AOK. So no worries there.

Moreover, even if you did nothing and drove around with the CEL...there would be no way to know if the CEL was for a bad o2 sensor, or some other issue vs. a catless DP. Although they could speculate. I seriously doubt they'd attempt to deny an engine warranty claim because you'd car threw an o2 CEL.

In any case, it's a hard call to make. Feel out your dealer to see if they're light mod friendly (I've gotten turbos replaced under warranty when they knew it was running a JB4). Or Just pull the JB4 and DP off if you ever bring the car in for warranty work.

For me, I don't take "advantage" of the free maintenance. I can do my own oil/fluid/filter changes, and prefer to if it saves my the albeit minor headache of pulling off a JB4 and a DP every time the car needs to go in.

[LBBDrew]

That's some Big Brother shit right there

[3tekcorps]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Personally, I think he's full of shit...But is there a way to take your car "offline"?

That being said...

A JB4, for example, is a piggyback, not a flash tune. As far as the ECU is concerned, it's running normally.

With the JB4 autoclear on, it will never allow the CEL to throw. With the o2 sim, the CEL will never be thrown, and the car thinks everything is AOK. So no worries there.

Moreover, even if you did nothing and drove around with the CEL...there would be no way to know if the CEL was for a bad o2 sensor, or some other issue vs. a catless DP. Although they could speculate. I seriously doubt they'd attempt to deny an engine warranty claim because you'd car threw an o2 CEL.

In any case, it's a hard call to make. Feel out your dealer to see if they're light mod friendly (I've gotten turbos replaced under warranty when they knew it was running a JB4). Or Just pull the JB4 and DP off if you ever bring the car in for warranty work.

For me, I don't take "advantage" of the free maintenance. I can do my own oil/fluid/filter changes, and prefer to if it saves my the albeit minor headache of pulling off a JB4 and a DP every time the car needs to go in.

I hope you're right on this.

I honestly have no idea on this, I'm just passing on what I was told. I do know the car is linked to some cellular data service though. My $500 Iphone tries to dump everything onto the cloud for me, so it wouldn't surprise me that the $50,000 car does it too.

He claimed they had an M5 with a toasted engine that Corporate tried to deny coverage due to the aftermarket tune that they could see in the system.

Someone who knows more should chime in on this!

[3tekcorps]

I'm sure it's BS...Microsoft would never help them suck all the user data out of the car!

https://www.morningstar.com/news/dow...es-to-bmw.html

[Adem1534]

Originally Posted by 3tekcorps

I hope you're right on this.

I honestly have no idea on this, I'm just passing on what I was told. I do know the car is linked to some cellular data service though. My $500 Iphone tries to dump everything onto the cloud for me, so it wouldn't surprise me that the $50,000 car does it too.

He claimed they had an M5 with a toasted engine that Corporate tried to deny coverage due to the aftermarket tune that they could see in the system.

Someone who knows more should chime in on this!

Ugh, this is the type of uncertainty that I'm afraid of. I really want that DP though! How much do you think the DINAN exhaust will cost?

[3tekcorps]

Bet the fuckers are selling BMW consumer data patterns. How do we unplug this shit? I don't want BMW tracking my ass around all the time.

[3tekcorps]

Originally Posted by Adem1534

Ugh, this is the type of uncertainty that I'm afraid of. I really want that DP though! How much do you think the DINAN exhaust will cost?

That's the rub man! They started up-selling the DINAN products in the same conversation. I'm sure it will be double the price to cover the pay off to BMW

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by Adem1534

Ugh, this is the type of uncertainty that I'm afraid of. I really want that DP though! How much do you think the DINAN exhaust will cost?

I mean, I'm not sure how much of a benefit the Dinan warranty is...

Their warranty covers their product, as well as any parts which failed due to their products. You're still at risk of Dinan saying, sorry, our DP didn't cause your blown engine, it was a BMW manufacturing defect. They have every right to do just that, and have a history of doing so, actually...


Here's the language of the warranty...

US and Canadian Specification Vehicles Only
If your vehicle is currently covered by the vehicle manufacturer’s new car limited warranty, Dinan products are warranted for the remaining term of the vehicle manufacturer’s new car limited warranty. The manufacturer’s new car warranty is limited to 4 years or 50,000 miles (80,000 kilometers in Canada), commencing on the date of first retail sale or the date the vehicle is first placed in-service as a demonstrator or company vehicle, whichever is earlier. Dinan’s warranties are transferable when ownership of the vehicle into which the Dinan products were originally installed is sold.
To obtain service under this warranty, the vehicle must be brought, upon discovery of a malfunction or defect in materials and/or workmanship, to the workshop of any Authorized Dinan Dealer, during normal business hours. Proof of purchase in the form of a lawful invoice is required. The Authorized Dinan Dealer will, without charge for parts or labor, repair or replace the defective Dinan component(s), as well as any original vehicle manufacturer’s component(s) that may have been directly affected by a Dinan component, using new or authorized remanufactured parts. The decision to repair or replace said parts is at the sole discretion of Dinan and/or the original vehicle manufacturer. Parts for which replacements are supplied under this limited warranty become the property of Dinan and/or the original vehicle manufacturer. In all cases, a reasonable period of time must be allowed for warranty repairs to be completed after the vehicle is delivered to the Authorized Dinan Dealer.


RACING ONLY PRODUCTS (like catless DPs)

Due to the nature of the intended use, Dinan Racing Products are guaranteed against defects in workmanship only. These products are not warranted against wear and/or failure under any circumstances. These products do not fall under the standard Dinan Limited Product Warranty. Racing-only parts may also affect the BMW warranty and emissions warranty.

[3tekcorps]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

I mean, I'm not sure how much of a benefit the Dinan warranty is...

Their warranty covers their product, as well as any parts which failed due to their products. You're still at risk of Dinan saying, sorry, our DP didn't cause your blown engine, it was a BMW manufacturing defect. They have every right to do just that, and have a history of doing so, actually...


Here's the language of the warranty...

US and Canadian Specification Vehicles Only
If your vehicle is currently covered by the vehicle manufacturer’s new car limited warranty, Dinan products are warranted for the remaining term of the vehicle manufacturer’s new car limited warranty. The manufacturer’s new car warranty is limited to 4 years or 50,000 miles (80,000 kilometers in Canada), commencing on the date of first retail sale or the date the vehicle is first placed in-service as a demonstrator or company vehicle, whichever is earlier. Dinan’s warranties are transferable when ownership of the vehicle into which the Dinan products were originally installed is sold.
To obtain service under this warranty, the vehicle must be brought, upon discovery of a malfunction or defect in materials and/or workmanship, to the workshop of any Authorized Dinan Dealer, during normal business hours. Proof of purchase in the form of a lawful invoice is required. The Authorized Dinan Dealer will, without charge for parts or labor, repair or replace the defective Dinan component(s), as well as any original vehicle manufacturer’s component(s) that may have been directly affected by a Dinan component, using new or authorized remanufactured parts. The decision to repair or replace said parts is at the sole discretion of Dinan and/or the original vehicle manufacturer. Parts for which replacements are supplied under this limited warranty become the property of Dinan and/or the original vehicle manufacturer. In all cases, a reasonable period of time must be allowed for warranty repairs to be completed after the vehicle is delivered to the Authorized Dinan Dealer.


RACING ONLY PRODUCTS (like catless DPs)

Due to the nature of the intended use, Dinan Racing Products are guaranteed against defects in workmanship only. These products are not warranted against wear and/or failure under any circumstances. These products do not fall under the standard Dinan Limited Product Warranty. Racing-only parts may also affect the BMW warranty and emissions warranty.

I thought the benefit is that using the part/tune doesn't VOID the BMW warranty. I'm not worried about the warranty on a piece of metal exhaust pipe I buy for $200.

It's considered an approved modification, where "Jacks M2 Tune" is a total unknown to BMW. If your engine is toast at 15,000 miles and they see you ran Jacks Tune / No Cat I bet you're SOL if that data is actually logged.

Why would BMW give out replacement engines in this situation?

[Adem1534]

Originally Posted by 3tekcorps

I thought the benefit is that using the part/tune doesn't VOID the BMW warranty. I'm not worried about the warranty on a piece of metal exhaust pipe I buy for $200.

It's considered an approved modification, where "Jacks M2 Tune" is a total unknown to BMW. If your engine is toast at 15,000 miles and they see you ran Jacks Tune / No Cat I bet you're SOL if that data is actually logged.

Why would BMW give out replacement engines in this situation?

Can the downpipe really cause serious engine damage by itself?

[3tekcorps]

Originally Posted by Adem1534

Can the downpipe really cause serious engine damage by itself?

I doubt it, but that's above my pay grade. Getting the heat out of there should help things, and as long as the ECU can keep the air/fuel ratios where they need to be it shouldn't be an issue.

I asked about this in another thread and was told it would be fine.