[BarryJI]

I'm just curious re. whether this discussion was removed. Personally, I found it very useful, in a cautionary way, and am not sure why it might have been removed except if it had degenerated into mud-slinging or legal territory. Can anyone enlighten me?

[Orenji]

If I was either of the two tuning companies, I'd be extremely happy it's gone.

I wouldn't believe anything you read about any party in that thread. Towards the end full names were posted and things got personal. I think emotions were running wild and it didn't represent any of the people involved very well.

Hopefully they're working things out in private and when all is said and done they'll let us know.

[overcoil]

It was a good thread, I understand why it was removed, but I learned a lot and didn't have any negative opinions about any of the parties involved.

[pikcachu]

it probably got "moderated"

[simoneves]

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

I ... didn't have any negative opinions about any of the parties involved.

I did. Mudslinging in a public forum is unprofessional, whatever the reason.

Both parties are basically just a couple of guys sitting in an industrial unit hacking into deliberately-secured products and making unsanctioned modifications and expecting their customers to believe that they know what they're doing, when 99% of those customers wouldn't understand a word of the technical process if it was explained to them.

Company A didn't respond to the accusations, quite rightly in my view, given the medium they were cast in, which only provided more fuel for Company B to belittle them.

How do we as customers (or prospective customers) know that EITHER of them know what they're doing. For all we know, a Company C will come along soon and accuse both of them of being idiots and that THEY are the only ones doing it correctly.

I am reminded of the quote from the movie WarGames... "The only winning move is not to play".

[Cloud IX]

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

It was a good thread, I understand why it was removed, but I learned a lot and didn't have any negative opinions about any of the parties involved.

I agree. But money talks, but I guess in this case, silences.

[BarryJI]

Originally Posted by simoneves

I did. Mudslinging in a public forum is unprofessional, whatever the reason.

Both parties are basically just a couple of guys sitting in an industrial unit hacking into deliberately-secured products and making unsanctioned modifications and expecting their customers to believe that they know what they're doing, when 99% of those customers wouldn't understand a word of the technical process if it was explained to them.

Company A didn't respond to the accusations, quite rightly in my view, given the medium they were cast in, which only provided more fuel for Company B to belittle them.

How do we as customers (or prospective customers) know that EITHER of them know what they're doing. For all we know, a Company C will come along soon and accuse both of them of being idiots and that THEY are the only ones doing it correctly.

I am reminded of the quote from the movie WarGames... "The only winning move is not to play".

Fair enough but I feel compelled to point out something my tuner told me, which is that it is all but impossible to crack a modern BMW ECU and all efforts to do so are, to a greater or lesser extent, extremely speculative. This is why the much-maligned piggyback tune exists and why it's a good idea to go with a supplier that stands behind its product with a warranty and keeps on the right side of BMW. Different standards might apply to race tunes in dedicated track cars but for the street, why entrust a $45,000 car to hackers, even when their intentions are good?

[2msport]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

Fair enough but I feel compelled to point out something my tuner told me, which is that it is all but impossible to crack a modern BMW ECU and all efforts to do so are, to a greater or lesser extent, extremely speculative. This is why the much-maligned piggyback tune exists and why it's a good idea to go with a supplier that stands behind its product with a warranty and keeps on the right side of BMW. Different standards might apply to race tunes in dedicated track cars but for the street, why entrust a $45,000 car to hackers, even when their intentions are good?

Because it yelds better results

[BarryJI]

Originally Posted by 2msport

Because it yelds better results

Right, but at what price? Don't forget, everybody who is tuning a 2-Series is doing so to a brand-new, or almost brand-new car, and a high-end one at that. If I had an out-of-warranty FRS that I liked to fling around a track, I'd look at the risk of a speculative tune in a different way but, frankly, I don't have the nerve, the expertise, the money or the cojones (if that's what it takes) to entrust my $47K Bimmer to an unwarrantied ECU flash that will give me 20HP over a Dinan piggyback.

[2msport]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

Right, but at what price? Don't forget, everybody who is tuning a 2-Series is doing so to a brand-new, or almost brand-new car, and a high-end one at that. If I had an out-of-warranty FRS that I liked to fling around a track, I'd look at the risk of a speculative tune in a different way but, frankly, I don't have the nerve, the expertise, the money or the cojones (if that's what it takes) to entrust my $47K Bimmer to an unwarrantied ECU flash that will give me 20HP over a Dinan piggyback.

No regrets here

[BarryJI]

Originally Posted by 2msport

No regrets here

That's great. And I am not trying to provoke anyone by expressing my strictly personal point of view. A lot of you have many more options to tune your cars regardless of the issue of supplier. Here in CA the regs are so strict that I would never be emissions compliant with anything more than an S1 tune and a catback exhaust mod. Intercoolers, big turbos with appropriate tunes? Fuhgeddaboutit. And what's even worse is that all the 4-cylinder BMWs in southern CA come with the N26 which has a more restrictive CC and not the N20. The N26 will get no more love from corporate tuners like Dinan in the future because all the hassle of dealing with the emissions regs make the necessary R & D less than worthwhile. So, I am glad I'm happy with the mods I've made so far, and the strong enhanced engine output I've got out of them, because unless I get a tune that would fail the smog test and/or jeopardise the manufacturer's warranty, I think that's all she wrote. Guys with the N20 or N55 will have wider and better choices.

[MG 228i]

No regrets with my N20 tune unless it blows

[2msport]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

That's great. And I am not trying to provoke anyone by expressing my strictly personal point of view. A lot of you have many more options to tune your cars regardless of the issue of supplier. Here in CA the regs are so strict that I would never be emissions compliant with anything more than an S1 tune and a catback exhaust mod. Intercoolers, big turbos with appropriate tunes? Fuhgeddaboutit. And what's even worse is that all the 4-cylinder BMWs in southern CA come with the N26 which has a more restrictive CC and not the N20. The N26 will get no more love from corporate tuners like Dinan in the future because all the hassle of dealing with the emissions regs make the necessary R & D less than worthwhile. So, I am glad I'm happy with the mods I've made so far, and the strong enhanced engine output I've got out of them, because unless I get a tune that would fail the smog test and/or jeopardise the manufacturer's warranty, I think that's all she wrote. Guys with the N20 or N55 will have wider and better choices.

Completely agree. I'm happy you're happy. Everyone has different criteria. I do want to say the n26 and CA thing is not correct. I have an N20. Custom build sent to LA. Also an ECU tune will still pass emissions. So I was told.

[BarryJI]

MG, what did you do to your N20? I am curious and, in all likelihood, envious.

[BarryJI]

Originally Posted by 2msport

I do want to say the n26 and CA thing is not correct. I have an N20. Custom build sent to LA. Also an ECU tune will still pass emissions. So I was told.

Yes, I could have custom-ordered an N20 but I found my 228i M-Sport with THP on a dealer lot, fully-loaded and fresh off the transporter. Fantastic car (and a fantastic engine) but I wish I had known about the N26's unsuitability as an aggressive tuning platform, at least for emissions-compliant tunes. I think there have been tax benefits since 2013 for BMW to sell as many of the N26 SULEV engines as possible in emissions states like CA. I wonder about what you were told re. ECU tunes passing emissions; this sounds like an over-generalised and somewhat iffy claim to me. Again, though, I am not moralising; if Dinan told me that their Stage 3 tune with intercooler would work with the N26 but not be strictly emissions-compliant, I might still go for it. But I wonder if Dinan would sell it to me or if my tuner would install it.

[MG 228i]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

MG, what did you do to your N20? I am curious and, in all likelihood, envious.

Just the GSR tune and the m235i exhaust.
I promised myself not mod my car

As for CA emissions, you'll have no problem passing if everything visual seems OEM under the hood and obviously if you have your cat.
They don't even do the sniffer test anymore!
All they do now is the OBD plug in.

With my previous car, it was difficult to pass the sniffer test, but I'd pass the OBD test as I had a patch in the ECU to "force pass" all the readiness emission sensors so that it'll show everything is good to go But the sniffer test would fail of course.

I'm actually curious if people with a catless downpipe (with a tune to disable the error code) would pass if the tech doesn't mind

[mike@x-ph.com]

It got removed because it turned from a useful thread to vendors going after each other ... Im not going to even talk about the end where full names of customers were posted

informative conversation is good ... Vendor bashing is not and it is against the rules

[GSR Technik]

Mudslinging of course has no place on an enthusiast forum, I've been tuning since 2008 and I've never seen a competitor actually post someone's IP online and deliberately give false information to swing public opinion. I've also never heard of the tuner, don't know how he assumed he had insider info on me and my personal life and furthermore I don't see a single N55 or N20 dyno posted prior to our IP being stolen and then bragged about boastfully.

Ironically by posting screen shots and trying to bash us he tilted his hand a bit and showed that he's not as knowledgeable as he's claiming to be. He had a mappack in English which means he has hand me down information (poorly translated from German to English) or used a translator plugin which means he fundamentally doesn't understand the map functions in German. They also think that these cars run lean from the factory which like I replied in that thread before it dissapeared, DFI cars can afford to run much leaner than conventional EFI cars, we always keep safety a priority in our tunes to insinuate otherwise in an attempt to gain marketshare when you're starting out is the wrong way to go about it. The funny thing is, on the dyno at WOT the car doesn't run that map, so he's obviously never had one on the dyno he's just screen tuning.

Furthermore, if a customer has a preference as to what their AFR should be we deliver that, have your car your way that's the purpose of tuning, we don't just have one file for every car, every customer is different and therefore every tune will be different based on their preference. Leaning out the AFR slightly will yield better power and better fuel economy, leaning it out drastically of course is dangerous, this is common sense.

I've always done right by my customers, there are times when people aren't happy, you can't win them all, in those cases I've refunded customers and returned their cars to stock. I've been in this industry for a long time and regardless of what some newcomer says I'm not going anywhere. I'm not as active on this forum as I should be, but I don't just tune BMW's so my focus isn't always on what to post here. I've never gone bankrupt or changed names to avoid any type of trouble, Jailbreak Tuning was my companies name and we only changed the name to reflect our close working relationship with GSR Autosport the race shop. Since I left WeistecEng. I've been with the same company, my company, where I create the IP. Over the years I did tuning for Brabus when they were in Newport Beach, BBI Autosport which is the most unique Porsche shop in the world and I could have easily made a comfortable living tuning for someone else. I wanted to do tuning for everything I'm good at, not just Mercedes, not just Porsche, and not just BMW, you'll be surprised how much you learn since a lot of the code is shared between platforms.

FYI, I have an MBA, my business partner is a JD, both of us could be very successful in any industry but this is not just our job it's our passion. So sorry if I reacted in an unprofessional manner to someone I've never heard of bragging about stealing my stuff and saying he's better without a shred of proof, that is the most personal attack I've ever heard from a stranger and I don't intend on participating in any further banter with said party regardless of what else they try.

Guys, my name is Matt, I've been a BMW guy my whole life and I got in this industry because I could not get my personal M5 tuned reliably by several different tuners back in 2006. I wanted something done right and learned to do it myself. I spend my days flashing cars and my nights reverse engineering. I'm a small business owner, I'm not perfect by any stretch of the word but again, I do my best to make everyone happy. I'll be here tuning BMW's and other euros for as long as I live. I hope that you all do what you're passionate about and certainly hope no one casts stones at you like what happened to us here this last week to try to make their mark.

I'm here if you have any questions,

matt@gsrtechnik.com

[ocN55]

Darn, looks like I missed out on that thread. If I could just know the parties involved, I could probably connect the dots.

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

Fair enough but I feel compelled to point out something my tuner told me, which is that it is all but impossible to crack a modern BMW ECU and all efforts to do so are, to a greater or lesser extent, extremely speculative. This is why the much-maligned piggyback tune exists and why it's a good idea to go with a supplier that stands behind its product with a warranty and keeps on the right side of BMW. Different standards might apply to race tunes in dedicated track cars but for the street, why entrust a $45,000 car to hackers, even when their intentions are good?

I had my SS flash tuned back in '97 when it was a year old by someone I'd never heard of but had done a bunch of other guys cars. He's done work for Chrysler, GM, etc. (I didn't know at the time) but the results spoke for themselves. I never had an ounce of issue from the tune and only after the CARB changed the rules, does the car not pass as is...(18+ yrs later). Done right, I don't have any issues with this process at all.

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by MG 228i

Just the GSR tune and the m235i exhaust.
I promised myself not mod my car

As for CA emissions, you'll have no problem passing if everything visual seems OEM under the hood and obviously if you have your cat.
They don't even do the sniffer test anymore!
All they do now is the OBD plug in.

With my previous car, it was difficult to pass the sniffer test, but I'd pass the OBD test as I had a patch in the ECU to "force pass" all the readiness emission sensors so that it'll show everything is good to go But the sniffer test would fail of course.

I'm actually curious if people with a catless downpipe (with a tune to disable the error code) would pass if the tech doesn't mind

I thought they still dyno/sniff test the cars. I know they do on the older ones. My car is tested every 2 yrs on the dyno and sniff test and OBDII functions. It's a pain in the ass ...they love picking on 20yr old cars.

My wife's Benz is put on the dyno/sniff test as well..and hers is a 2007.

[2msport]

In response to Matt..

Exactly. Great job guys.