[rainfall]

Hey guys

I think everyone here saw those video accidents that happen on tracks, but I particularly noticed that BMWs are quite frequent in those compilations (RWD + no traction control + pushing too hard = oversteer + crash).
I was wondering how much you guys have seen these types of accidents in real life. I don't want to mess up a brand new 2 series that I may buy one day

Thanks!

[overcoil]

One reason BMW's are featured in Nurenbergring crash videos is that BMW are arguably the finest sport cars/sedans in the world. If you want to go racing there may not be a better choice.

Corvettes, Elise, S2000 probably have higher or equal accident rates to M3's so I don't imagine BMW design are inherent to crashes.

[ralawren]

Eight track days and there were three incidents.

- One where an Infiniti G30 overheated the brakes and couldn't stop at the end of the straight. Clipped another car which incurred body damage on fender.
- Mustang overheated his brakes and went off into the mud at the end of the straight. Slight damage to front fenders and air dam.
- BMW 3 series with modified suspension over drove a corner and lifted. Spun and ended up backwards over the tire wall. Major damage. This was in the Advanced/Solo group where the driver was pushing very hard.

Conclusion is the HPDEs are generally very safe if you stay within your capabilities and build up your knowledge. Of course you will make mistakes but if you are following your instructor's directions you shouldn't have a major accident that results in body damage.

Of course there have been some terrible accidents here in the states with drivers and instructors losing their lives. But I think this is still a very rare occurrence.

Please do attend a HPDE and just be cautious.

[Liquidpaper]

I've been to my fair share of track days in my 2, and I can tell you that these things tend to happen because (1) BMW's are popular track cars (pretty decent out of the box performance for the price for a road course) and (2) RWD cars can seriously mess your day up if you aren't paying attention.

Here is the thing -- as ralawren said, HPDE's are normally very safe. Just drive within your limits, remember this is not a race, and that you are not driving a caged racecar. However, you are still driving a 3000+ pound death missile at very high speeds (read: 100+ mph if you are in a quicker, newer "performance" car) and accidents happen.

If you were to drive a FWD or AWD car, you tend to get (tend, not guaranteed) more push at the limit, which is somewhat easier to recover from. In a RWD car, you may (again, not guaranteed) get loose, which is (1) terrifying when going at any racetrack speed and (2) requires a bit more practice and forethought to recover from.

Also, when you see people tracking their car (and it is a street car), they are usually modified (often poorly) and are put in a scenario that they were never really intended to be in. Bad things happen when you don't know your or your car's limits.

The moral of the story is just be careful -- in how you set up your car and how you drive at an HPDE. They are fun, I promise. Just be careful.

[pikcachu]

You are not supposed to drive with DSC OFF at HPDE for a reason....

[Mywifes335]

Watch out for red mist....

And don't overdrive the car or rely on power to get fast laps.

If all else fails, get a Miata or track day insurance.

A buddy of mine waffled his MZ4 and had to pay $15k out of pocket and the car was down for months. He was chasing an instructor running in the intermediate run group.

We were scared shitless when we saw/heard the crash. Thank God he wasn't hurt.

I cooked the brakes on my CLK55 and went off the wet track and spun. No injuries but spent an hour cleaning the grass and mud out of the interior.

[Pparana]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

You are not supposed to drive with DSC OFF at HPDE for a reason....

what!

[rainfall]

Thanks for the responses guys. Yeah, we gotta respect the machine's limits. Good point on HPDE. I think it will make me more aware of the limits.
I am more on the safer side of the drivers, but nobody wants to have accidents on a track. If that happens that frequently, then I should be even more careful.

Well, so I guess I won't be able to drive like chris harris so soon or often... haha

[Pparana]

I have been tracking, racing, and instructing cars and motorcycles for almost 10 years. In the past, most serious accidents I have seen were in advanced run groups. Sadly I would say now most accidents now are in intermediate. I would contribute this to a few things,

A. the sport is more popular, and there are not enough qualified instructors, so people get moved up and let loose sooner without proper training

B. Car traction control had gotten ridiculous, to the point you can just mash the pedal and the car will fix quite a bit, but when it does not, look out.

C. Cars have gotten really, really fast out of the box.

none of these things on there own are detrimental, however you put a few together in the right circumstances and crashes happen. That being said, 90 percent of the crashes I have seen are driver error. Most are just lack of seat time, and too fast of a car for the drivers skill level, reaction time and lack of understanding the physics.


As far as track days go, you have to remember your driving a street car, with no safety equipment designed for the speed in which you would most likely have an accident. I rarely think about the cost of the car in my mind, it is more my body and health, having seen many injuries, parallelizations and sadly deaths in my motorcycle days.

Track days do not have to be dangerous, but they are not inherently risk free. I never drive more than 80 percent, and I will lift or pit in and let anyone pass who I do not like being around. Situational awareness of the cars around you is probably your best weapon in staying safe.

Chasing down other cars is a fools errand, if you want to race hit up nasa or chump car, well be glad to have you. There is no HPDE awards, and no one cares at the end of a session who was the fastest. Chances are the fastest guy is the most calm, and smooth.

Personally I do not instruct novice anymore, and I will only get in a car with another driver with either a full cage or if I know them very well. There is very little to coach in car with advanced drivers, you can do a better job with the data. No, I do not want to get in your new z06 on your first day on track.


Read all of the Ross Bentley books, they are by far your best investment to going faster, safer.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Pparana

what!

well at least at the bmw cca is what they say... now not sure if they enforce it or not... they might just say it for liability purposes

[Pparana]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

well at least at the bmw cca is what they say... now not sure if they enforce it or not... they might just say it for liability purposes

its not bad for novice, but if you have r comps, or other tires that are larger or smaller you can be in a bit of a pickle.

A few weekends ago I was at Roebling, which has one of the fastest straights in the country. I inadvertently put dsc into "traction" mode. When I hit the brakes at 148 mph, the car pulled me to the right hard, almost off track, had to work the wheel and brakes quite a bit to avoid an unfortunate weekend. I thought a caliper had seized or failed. Turns out it was the traction control, confused due to the wheel size and grip.

A year earlier I had similar situation at Daytona on the banks in a z51, it started darting up and down the track, could not cope with the yaw on the banking.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Pparana

its not bad for novice, but if you have r comps, or other tires that are larger or smaller you can be in a bit of a pickle.

A few weekends ago I was at Roebling, which has one of the fastest straights in the country. I inadvertently put dsc into "traction" mode. When I hit the brakes at 148 mph, the car pulled me to the right hard, almost off track, had to work the wheel and brakes quite a bit to avoid an unfortunate weekend. I thought a caliper had seized or failed. Turns out it was the traction control, confused due to the wheel size and grip.

A year earlier I had similar situation at Daytona on the banks in a z51, it started darting up and down the track, could not cope with the yaw on the banking.

I see.... how much different was your rolling diameter compared to stock?

[Pparana]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

I see.... how much different was your rolling diameter compared to stock?

not much, maybe .25" I think the semi slicks were more to blame.

[mocohead]

There are companies offering track day insurance. I never leave home for the track without it.

Also I tend to see fewer issues when I'm with BMW CCA than when I run with other groups. It is scary to watch some of the dangerous mistakes people make when they are not properly trained and over confident.

[wjones14]

8 track days total, all but one in the Mustang pictured in my avatar. I have seen 3 incidents where damage was involved, and maybe a half dozen more cars have spun off the track but didn't hit anything other than grass and dirt.

All 3 damage incidents happened at Lime Rock Park (2 events). Never saw any damage happen at Watkins Glen (2 events), NJ Motorsports Park, Loudon, Thompson Speedway, or Palmer Motorsports Park.

The incidents:

-- Shelby AC Cobra (kit car?) slams into wall at end of uphill straight. It was the first lap of the day in early November 2007 on cold tires. Was told the tires were just not warmed up for the speed he was carrying. Car was towed off track.

-- Lancer EVO IX glances off guard rail entering main straight from downhill turn. Same November event as above. Track had just started to get wet from light wet snow! (I personally skipped the last session when it started snowing.) EVO could be driven, but suffered damage to rear quarter and the trunk had popped open and would not stay shut without being tied down.

-- Subaru BRZ spins into same guard rail as the EVO. Also in wet conditions just after a short rain. Aug 2013 event. (Again, I personally skipped this session when the track was wet.) BRZ was towed off track.

According to the club president, most track day incidents happen in the Intermediate run groups. The novice group all run with instructors and are generally conservative and take fewer risks. The intermediate group, however, has instructor optional, and tend to start exploring the limits of the car and their own limits, and often exceed one or the other.

Of the incidents I saw, all three were in the Intermediate run group.

[rainfall]

Thanks everyone for the inputs. They are really valuable. This was kind of covered here, but is there any insurance that clearly covers track days under reasonable driving conditions ? (no lap time, no chasing, not competing)

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by rainfall

Thanks everyone for the inputs. They are really valuable. This was kind of covered here, but is there any insurance that clearly covers track days under reasonable driving conditions ? (no lap time, no chasing, not competing)

Check out Lockton Motorsports. They do HPDE insurance for most events. It's not cheap (either the premium or the deductible), but, if you total your car, it's covered. It's some good peace of mind if you want it.

[Mywifes335]

+1. A lot of times you might get special pricing from the track day organizers for HPDE insurance too.

BTW, one of the more organized event hosts I've experienced has been Hooked On Driving. A lot of seat time, reasonably priced, and have low incident rates.

[mcompact]

At BMW CCA HPDEs students have to be signed off by their instructor before they can drive solo. As an instructor I won't sign off anyone that isn't ready.

[rich8566]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

well at least at the bmw cca is what they say... now not sure if they enforce it or not... they might just say it for liability purposes

Never heard of this except in the novice and beginner CCA groups.

[rich8566]

Note to all - it is poor form to post photos of off track excursions unless you are posting a photo of your own car.

[bryan_G01]

this was at njmp- lightning.

Saw a e46 hit the rail at Limerock coming over the uphill.

Saw an evo spin and crash into the rail out of turn 1 same day.