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      10-09-2015, 05:16 PM   #1
SickFinga
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Vs. 911 GT3

US M4 - $63,200
UK M4 - $87,400 (57,055 GBP)
DE M4 - $82,300 (72,500 EUR)

UK M4 GTS - $186,500 (121,700 GBP)
DE M4 GTS - $166,100 (146,200 EUR)

I'm guessing M4 GTS will be around $125,000-130,000 USD in the US which is about the same as 911 GT3.

Moderator Edit: Good guess, and very close: $134,200
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      10-09-2015, 07:11 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickFinga View Post
US M4 - $63,200
UK M4 - $87,400 (57,055 GBP)
DE M4 - $82,300 (72,500 EUR)

UK M4 GTS - $186,500 (121,700 GBP)
DE M4 GTS - $166,100 (146,200 EUR)

I'm guessing M4 GTS will be around $125,000-130,000 USD in the US which is about the same as 911 GT3.
With that said 911 GT3 or M4 GTS ?! Hmmm I would take the GTS.
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      10-09-2015, 09:44 PM   #3
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I would take the GT3 over the GTS no doubt
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      10-09-2015, 09:51 PM   #4
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Vs. 911 GT3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devilzmantis View Post
With that said 911 GT3 or M4 GTS ?! Hmmm I would take the GTS.
Sorry, that would be a very foolish choice.
3,150 lbs 475hp GT3 (or 3,000 lbs 500hp GT3-RS) will run circles around M4-GTS.

For a purpose build track car, GT3 all the way.

For dual purpose car - M3/4, alas, once you install cages, dual purpose goes out the window.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaa335 View Post
Dang! at 130k I'm out. It has cool tech and all with the water cooling and coilovers but double the msrp of base car is hard to justify..
Agreed.
There are some very cool features in GTS that I want (water injection, seats), but not at 2x the price. And not at the expense of the rear seat.

If giving up the rear seat and dual nature of the M3/4 was not an objection, then it would be GT3 all the way for me...

a
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      10-09-2015, 10:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afadeev View Post
Sorry, that would be a very foolish choice.
3,150 lbs 475hp GT3 (or 3,000 lbs 500hp GT3-RS) will run circles around M4-GTS.

For a purpose build track car, GT3 all the way.

For dual purpose car - M3/4, alas, once you install cages, dual purpose goes out the window.



Agreed.
There are some very cool features in GTS that I want (water injection, seats), but not at 2x the price. And not at the expense of the rear seat.

If giving up the rear seat and dual nature of the M3/4 was not an objection, then it would be GT3 all the way for me...

a
With the little data available it seems the GTS can hang with the GT3 and the minimal difference will come down to to driver, ambient parameters etc. The inherent capabilities and clocked time on the only circuit we have to compare seems very, very similar. Certainly no running circles here or anything remotely foolish in picking the GTS IMO. I happen to prefer NA engines of this caliber and this would be the main reason I would pick the GT3. The GT3 has become such a show car that it's taken a lot out of the joy to buy/own it for me. Driving it on track with that screamer of an engine though
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      10-10-2015, 08:21 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
With the little data available it seems the GTS can hang with the GT3 and the minimal difference will come down to to driver, ambient parameters etc. The inherent capabilities and clocked time on the only circuit we have to compare seems very, very similar. Certainly no running circles here or anything remotely foolish in picking the GTS IMO.
You are right - running circles was a figure of speech.
However, all things being equal (similar HP, torque, suspension prep, tires, driver), a 3500 lbs car (GTS) will not keep up with a 3100 lbs car (GT3) for long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I happen to prefer NA engines of this caliber and this would be the main reason I would pick the GT3. The GT3 has become such a show car that it's taken a lot out of the joy to buy/own it for me. Driving it on track with that screamer of an engine though
I do love the work BMW had put into the GTS package.
Unfortunately, the price point and product spec vaults it into an entirely another category of track warrior cars.
That extra weight will require WAY more of a HP compensation than what the water tank provides. How long before BMW starts boring out that 3.0L to 3.2+L ... ?

a
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      10-10-2015, 08:21 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afadeev View Post
Sorry, that would be a very foolish choice.
3,150 lbs 475hp GT3 (or 3,000 lbs 500hp GT3-RS) will run circles around M4-GTS.
Which facts do you use to back that claim up?

M4 GTS - 7:28 Nurburgring lap time
991 GT3 - 7:32 Nurburgring lap time

The GTS seems more than capable of hanging with the GT3 over a long track like the Nurburgring at least



http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/s...29.html?show=2
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      10-10-2015, 08:28 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Which facts do you use to back that claim up?

M4 GTS - 7:28 Nurburgring lap time
991 GT3 - 7:32 Nurburgring lap time
GT3 ran at least 7:27
https://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-times-top-100/

GT3-RS in 7:20
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...-and-info-news

But those times are still pretty close to GTS time.
The really interesting question is: on what tires were those times set?
M4 GTS and GT3-RS were on Michelin Pilot Cups 2's = R comps.

Not sure about base GT3.

a
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      10-10-2015, 08:31 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afadeev View Post
You are right - running circles was a figure of speech.
However, all things being equal (similar HP, torque, suspension prep, tires, driver), a 3500 lbs car (GTS) will not keep up with a 3100 lbs car (GT3) for long.



I do love the work BMW had put into the GTS package.
Unfortunately, the price point and product spec vaults it into an entirely another category of track warrior cars.
That extra weight will require WAY more of a HP compensation than what the water tank provides. How long before BMW starts boring out that 3.0L to 3.2+L ... ?

a
I think the bore spacing of the S55 doesn't allow much larger bore (but it's been a long time since I studied the S55 spec sheet, so I might be mistaken).

And don't forget that the area under the curve for both hp and torque is more important than just looking at a peak number for both HP and torque...

And the GTS has 600Nm of torque vs 440Nm for the GT3...
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      10-10-2015, 08:36 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afadeev View Post
You are right - running circles was a figure of speech.
However, all things being equal (similar HP, torque, suspension prep, tires, driver), a 3500 lbs car (GTS) will not keep up with a 3100 lbs car (GT3) for long.
Look at the numbers more closely. Using the EU weight for power to weight comparison is more representative because it factors 75kg (165b) for a driver.

991 GT3: 1505kg/475ps = 3.1684kg/ps
M4 GTS: 1585kg/500ps = 3.1700kg/ps

Further, considering that the S55 is turbocharged, the M4 GTS has a beefier power curve and puts down more average power that the GT3 does. The cars are very evenly matched.

That being said, for the price, I would likely still pick the GT3 as it has been a dream car of mine for so long .
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Last edited by CanAutM3; 10-10-2015 at 08:51 AM..
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      10-10-2015, 08:38 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afadeev View Post
GT3 ran at least 7:27
https://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-times-top-100/

GT3-RS in 7:20
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...-and-info-news

But those times are still pretty close to GTS time.
The really interesting question is: on what tires were those times set?
M4 GTS and GT3-RS were on Michelin Pilot Cups 2's = R comps.

Not sure about base GT3.

a
GT3 time in your link at 7:27 was prev gen GT3 RS 4.0 (still a very good time though )

The C&D link states 7:20 (no source provided) and claims that the RS is 5s quicker than the GT3. If correct, the GT3 should be 7:25 so slightly quicker than the GTS. I'd still say that being so close to the GT3 and GT3 RS is super impressive

Have Porsche officially announced the 7:20 and 7:25 times anywhere? If not then the time we have confirmation of for the GT3 is the Sport Auto 7:32 time...

But we will probably know more if and when Sport Auto does a Supertest of the GTS since we then can compare to confirmed independently set lap times
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      10-10-2015, 08:41 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
And the GTS has 600Nm of torque vs 440Nm for the GT3...
That is irrelevant though, it all depends at what RPM those N-m are generated .

But I agree about your point about the beefier power curve of the GTS.
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      10-10-2015, 09:30 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afadeev View Post
You are right - running circles was a figure of speech.
However, all things being equal (similar HP, torque, suspension prep, tires, driver), a 3500 lbs car (GTS) will not keep up with a 3100 lbs car (GT3) for long.

a
Wait a second - the Nordschleife is approximately 12 miles long. The M4 GTS "kept up" with the GT3 (and surpased its 7:32 time - almost matching its other time in the mid-upper 7:20's) and was only about 8 seconds behind the GT3 RS - AFTER 12 MILES....

So how much longer of a "race" would you need to have any appreciable difference between the two?? Just curious because the objective data is completely contrary to your claim above. Also - the weight of the M4 GTS is under 3350 lbs (without driver) - so the weight difference vs. the GT3 and GT3 RS is not as profound as you claim...
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      10-10-2015, 10:48 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I think the bore spacing of the S55 doesn't allow much larger bore (but it's been a long time since I studied the S55 spec sheet, so I might be mistaken).

And don't forget that the area under the curve for both hp and torque is more important than just looking at a peak number for both HP and torque...

And the GTS has 600Nm of torque vs 440Nm for the GT3...
while BMW can and has done many things. Including I6's with more than 3000cc, in today's world that has consequences. Namely 2:

Emissions are lower with smaller engines and with performance cars this is a real issue. In the US if you don't make certain levels you can't sell your car in the US (unless you game the system as well as if you don't certain mpg, you have to tack on extra taxes.

The other reason is also about taxes but this time, import taxes. Many countries charge different rates for importing a foreign car and that is sometimes tied to the cc of the motor with =>3000cc being line. In some cases the import tax can add another 10%+ of the car price in tax.

In some Asian countries this $120USD car would be $346k at 2990cc and $394k at 3000cc+. So they just don't even sell in those countries and BMW is a global brand and they want to sell their cars wherever customer live.
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      10-10-2015, 11:06 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schnazzy View Post
while BMW can and has done many things. Including I6's with more than 3000cc, in today's world that has consequences. Namely 2:

Emissions are lower with smaller engines and with performance cars this is a real issue. In the US if you don't make certain levels you can't sell your car in the US (unless you game the system as well as if you don't certain mpg, you have to tack on extra taxes.

The other reason is also about taxes but this time, import taxes. Many countries charge different rates for importing a foreign car and that is sometimes tied to the cc of the motor with =>3000cc being line. In some cases the import tax can add another 10%+ of the car price in tax.

In some Asian countries this $120USD car would be $346k at 2990cc and $394k at 3000cc+. So they just don't even sell in those countries and BMW is a global brand and they want to sell their cars wherever customer live.
BMW has had I6 engines of 3.8l (E34 M5) so it's not a issue of not being able to do so. My point was that I think the bore spacing of the S55 means there is not sufficient material (wall thickness) between the adjacent cylinders to have a large enough bore for 3.2l...

And emissions and taxation are valid points. However seems AMG still is able to sell and export their AMG models with a 4.0l V8... The 2015 C63 AMG even has a lower CO2 emissions rating than the M4 (192g/km vs 199g/km)...

BTW. Import taxes can add MUCH more than 10% to the value of the car... My line of work is to do with vehicle approvals in Europe and Norway. Here in Norway import taxes can easily double the price of some cars. Denmark is the same. Many Asian countries also have extreme taxation on vehicles.

Last edited by Boss330; 10-10-2015 at 11:16 AM..
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      10-10-2015, 02:16 PM   #16
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Don't forget the GT3 sounds better
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      10-10-2015, 04:31 PM   #17
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Along with everything else,

GT3 Fuel Consumption Highway - 20 mpg
GTS Fuel Consumption highway - 26 mpg

GT3 GGT $1,300
GTS GGT - 0

Just sayin'
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      10-10-2015, 04:49 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickFinga View Post
US M4 - $63,200
UK M4 - $87,400 (57,055 GBP)
DE M4 - $82,300 (72,500 EUR)

UK M4 GTS - $186,500 (121,700 GBP)
DE M4 GTS - $166,100 (146,200 EUR)

I'm guessing M4 GTS will be around $125,000-130,000 USD in the US which is about the same as 911 GT3.
Base plane jane price maybe, but you'll be hard pressed to find a brand new 2015 GT3 going for under $140k and $150k is more likely.

The M4 GTS seems more collectible and resale will be strong just like the GT3. The M4 GTS is a pure enthusiast car and made for someone who can track it to enjoy, but to the masses it will seem like a "fast and furious" 3 series. The Porsche on the other hand brings the same track credentials, will hold great resale, and can pull up anywhere and even soccer moms will take note, not that I care but the GT3 makes me seriously rubber neck.

I'd choose the GT3.
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      10-10-2015, 04:52 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuddman View Post
Along with everything else,

GT3 Fuel Consumption Highway - 20 mpg
GTS Fuel Consumption highway - 26 mpg

GT3 GGT $1,300
GTS GGT - 0

Just sayin'
Wow, so the water injection makes it more fuel efficient. Whey don't they add that to the stock M3/M4. We probably get close to 30mpg
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      10-10-2015, 05:25 PM   #20
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I love the looks of my M4 the sounds has to grow on you. The GT3 sound is unreal, and just mean. With limit production of the M4 if it taps 200k I wouldn't touch it .....actually the look it not a looker, and that wing is terrible. Less than. 1000 units it will possible be a collectible, but I buy cars to drive and could care less about resale. As I have said before M4 GTS go for a used 458!
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      10-10-2015, 05:27 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtr View Post
... so the water injection makes it more fuel efficient.
I think it's more a weight deal. The two cars ( M4 & M4 GTS) weigh about the same. GTS Engine souped up but not much added weight there. that's my guess.
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      10-10-2015, 09:20 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green///Hell View Post
Don't forget the GT3 sounds better
I've driven the GT3 on the track - and holy scheit!!! It sounds amazing between 7000-9000 rpm at full throttle!!!

But - I would still take the GTS over the GT3 - only because the GTS is more limited in production, much more unique looking, and offers what appears to be the same level of performance for approximately the same price (need a raise at work first though)...
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