[badgerbrock72]

Im sure you are all aware of the scandal rocking the VW Group (USA) today - basically they have admitted to rigging 2.0TDI engines across their range in order to cheat emissions testing

It will most likely lead to all manufacturer's being checked out, globally. Even talk of bringing forward strict(er) emissions laws in UK already.

Should us BMW diesel owners be worried..? and also - what could this mean for the future of the diesel powered car? (and of course values of these cars)

debate started......!

[OGM2LCI]

There's been talk of the demise of the diesel car for a while now, I just think this has sped it up big time.

Paris was going to place an out-right ban on all diesel cars by 2020, with this I reckon it will've been brought forward significantly

Is this now the time to try and get rid of the dervs before it all kicks off?

Hopefully we shouldn't be worried, but what will we diesel drivers get if it does happen, would we be entitled to compensation as a result? Or will we suddenly all have to stop driving our cars in certain cities?

[djgandy]

It would be such a shame if the clattering sound of diesel died out.

On a serious note, I've always noticed Audi MPG is pretty poor compared to BMW, and even Ford etc.
Maybe their engines are just shit?

Even on fuelly they are quite a bit lower than BMW engines.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/audi/a4/20...=&submodel_id=
http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/320d/2013

[OGM2LCI]

Originally Posted by djgandy

It would be such a shame if the clattering sound of diesel died out.

On a serious note, I've always noticed Audi MPG is pretty poor compared to BMW, and even Ford etc.
Maybe their engines are just shit?

Even on fuelly they are quite a bit lower than BMW engines.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/audi/a4/20...=&submodel_id=
http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/320d/2013

This has been true for my dads most recent A4. His previous was a 59 plate 2.0tdi and he regularly got 55mpg. Then upgraded to the newer facelift, 62 plate and is getting 41mpg.

When we drove over to Kent from Plymouth to pick my car up he got 46mpg which is poor for a car with 20,000 miles on it!

[gangzoom]

What VW has done is nothing short of criminal....

I think a fitting punishment would be to lock the VW broad in a warehouse with a few of their ultra-clean diesel cars running, and see how long before they start banging on the door for fear of their health.

[Rally_chris]

They might be the first manufacturer to be caught out, however I doubt they will be the last and this scandal could turn out to be the just tip of the iceberg for manufacturer emissions 'optimisation' across the globe.

[djgandy]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

What VW has done is nothing short of criminal....

I think a fitting punishment would be to lock the VW broad in a warehouse with a few of their ultra-clean diesel cars running, and see how long before they start banging on the door for fear of their health.

This is the effect of diesel subsidies and unrealistic emissions targets. The targets for 2020 are even more ridiculous. Manufacturers have few options other than to game the benchmarks, or stop selling cars.

[half Colin]

I can't believe that VW are the only manufacturer doing this. Watch this space over the next few weeks. Also, road tax and company car tax is based on emissions and if they've been fiddled to show lower values than they actually are ..... what happens here.

A friend of mine works in a VW garage and he's already had a couple of customers canceling new cars due to this - one was due to collect his car this week.

[makkan00]

I am not surprised and BMW / Merc will be next if investigation is done thoroughly!

[old grey steve]

It's quite disturbing really for a fair number of reasons, one being the cars software was written to understand when it was being specifically tested(steering wheel straight, specific engine tests being processed which when interpreted by the cars ECU seem to indicate that an emission test if some description was being undertaken and then therefore a specific mode with in the written programme within the software was requested to become due to what the car was seeing)

Very cleaver stuff and IMO was written to sit behind a "cloak"where it simply wouldn't of been detected, which for years it hasn't has it, til now. Whether this is market specific(USA/China)as reported to meet their stringent emission and pollution regulations we don't know.

The mere fact it was done tells you that perhaps the engine and its software alone were not able or indeed ever able to fulfil the marketing bods targets, therefore without some sort of skullduggery they maybe we're never going to sell their cars in certain markets. America for instance as we know is hardly a diesel safe haven, therefore for VW to sell cars there needed to be a carrot dangled in front of prospective customers noses. Fuel economy being one and in certain states in the U.S I guess emmissions was the other. Add the 2 together I guess and market it accordingly you create the 'in' you need to sell these cars.

I see this slightly differently perhaps to many and a few months ago in a post made a comment as such.....If you take our market for instance, we test diesel cars on smoke and smoke alone...... but for how long? Lookmat Paris! By 2020 thry are looking to ban diesels from the city, London was talking about a higher emission/congestion charge for diesel cars (we know the lorry and other good vehicle charges already exsist in London already re pollution related lorries etc.)

The MOT test I feel will change, I think with the pressures placed on reducing smog and other stuff that diesels 'may' produce pressure may come for a change. The mere fact that this has taken place by one of Europe's biggest car manufacturers in Europe's own back yard and done deliberately it would seem to ensure a target set out by law by a U.S State was achieved means the whole process could be turned on its head.

We've all read about what's gone on, VW's governing board has admitted, publicly that they've got it wrong, very wrong, VAG Groups chairman has today resigned.

Question you have to ask is who knew what, when and who in effect signed off the the concept of the car entering the market place? I dare say over the coming weeks/months a lot of info will come out in the wash.

I worked for VW from 97 to 2001 selling cars when the MK4 Golf emerged in to the market place along with the MK2 Passat, VW even then had their sights set on diesel domination at the time they had 'the diesel engine' their on,y challenger was PSA Group and as the 2 were at different scales of the market VAG Groups aim was to ensure certainly in the UK that it was the No1 player over here and to be fair that's what they've achieved with all the brands thry operate through.

I know on the fuel economy side of things from what I can see the slightly older diesels sold by the VAG Group seem to be in my eyes as James B-93's stated sure more fuel efficient or seem to be than the newer 'greener'ones they are producing now.

Question is just how green are there cars and has this damaged the VAG Groups overall reputation?

Could go many ways IMO, from cancelled orders to a potentual residue value freefall should the market react in a more negative manor then perhaps we are seeing now.

And re the question re other manufacturers singing from the same hym sheet? I suspect some who feel thry have nothing to hide might 'volenter' the authorities to test their cars to prove thst theyve hot nothing to hide, think about it, if proven to be whiter than white this exercise could well be one of the best publicity and marketing tools for a potentual rival manufacturer. One things for sure, I think it's gonna get messy.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by djgandy

This is the effect of diesel subsidies and unrealistic emissions targets. The targets for 2020 are even more ridiculous. Manufacturers have few options other than to game the benchmarks, or stop selling cars.

There are other options for diesel, or if your ready to take the leap go EV. 2018 is the target Audi/Porsche was aiming to have full battery Tesla competitor for sale.

The head of Porsche is rumoured on the BBC website to be up for the new head of VW....A Golf GTE - R. It'll take that over a GTD any day of the week

[Sparky68]

[badgerbrock72]

Think I saw this morning that JLR had issued a statement saying their cars are not affected (they have some extra filter post-DPF i believe)

I bet the BMW / Merc executives have had some tense meetings today checking their ducks are nicely in a row (hopefully!!) cause the authorities will soon be checking.

[OGM2LCI]

Out of curiosity...what was the actually purpose of the swirl flaps fitted to the BMW diesel engines? Was it not to cause the inlet air to tumble making it easier to combust and reducing emissions on idle? Anyone able to confirm this?

I know this would be seen as very different from software that actually picks up that a test is being carried out and changes exhaust emissions this way, but if the above is correct would it still not be a way of passing emissions tests as surely they would change as the car is driven?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by James-B93

Out of curiosity...what was the actually purpose of the swirl flaps fitted to the BMW diesel engines? Was it not to cause the inlet air to tumble making it easier to combust and reducing emissions on idle? Anyone able to confirm this?

I know this would be seen as very different from software that actually picks up that a test is being carried out and changes exhaust emissions this way, but if the above is correct would it still not be a way of passing emissions tests as surely they would change as the car is driven?

Swirl flaps are part of emission control strategies, something which BMW refer to as part of "measures inside their engine". They also assist a more complete combustion, so add to torque and economy within the working range.

In fact, tumble and swirl control have their place both for low and high revs, hence the ability to change the flap positions under different loads.

Even engine design without flaps still have head profiles, porting and inlet tracts which change tumble and swirl characteristics across the engine working parameters to assist combustion and emission levels.

To be blunt, removing swirl flaps is tampering with emission controls, same as removing the DPF or EGR systems.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by badgerbrock72

Think I saw this morning that JLR had issued a statement saying their cars are not affected (they have some extra filter post-DPF i believe)

I bet the BMW / Merc executives have had some tense meetings today checking their ducks are nicely in a row (hopefully!!) cause the authorities will soon be checking.

We get back to the full exhaust after treatment, using SCR (Selective Catalyst Reduction) with urea injection (AdBlue), typically being in a different league to the cheaper LNT (Lean NOx Trap) solution, the system fitted to the VW's under investigation.

BMW's X5 (highlighted in the saga) was running the SCR system, hence passing the EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 test and little difference in emissions in real world independent tests.

BMW like many others, also use the LNT type product across most of the range for EU6 compliance. BMW's system NSC (NOx Storage Catylist) is in the same can as the DPF. It requires a rich phase to burn off/convert the NOx.

It will be interesting to see how BMW models with NSC perform under any independent tests, due to the VW scandal. There are reports (from before this all blew up), that even BMW models with EU6 compliance, although passing the test, like many other makes still emit excessive NOx in real world conditions.

What the bigger issue is, EU5/6 compliance might not be in any way flouted, but are the engines clean outside of those parameters? The similarity is like CO2 and mpg figures, cars are tuned to pass the relevant tests, but we all know the real world is different.

Projected environmental NOx levels and "air quality" is based partly on NOx emission levels from the tests, not from actual driving. Therefore the issue expands out from the car manufacturers to the regulators, and ultimately to what air quality do we all want to be breathing.

HighlandPete

[mowflow]

Originally Posted by djgandy

This is the effect of diesel subsidies and unrealistic emissions targets. The targets for 2020 are even more ridiculous. Manufacturers have few options other than to game the benchmarks, or stop selling cars.

Is it not the case that it's more difficult to meet the US Nox emissions regulations on the smaller diesels but relatively easy on the larger diesel engines (if a 6l V8 diesel can pass what does that say for how skewed the US tests are?). I'm sure I read somewhere that VAG and BMW were the only 2 manufacturers selling 2l or lower 4 pot diesels in the US. Inability to meet the standard, reluctance to cheat and low demand being the reasons other manufacturers don't bother.

[djgandy]

Originally Posted by mowflow

Is it not the case that it's more difficult to meet the US Nox emissions regulations on the smaller diesels but relatively easy on the larger diesel engines (if a 6l V8 diesel can pass what does that say for how skewed the US tests are?). I'm sure I read somewhere that VAG and BMW were the only 2 manufacturers selling 2l or lower 4 pot diesels in the US. Inability to meet the standard, reluctance to cheat and low demand being the reasons other manufacturers don't bother.

I agree. The whole thing is being blown out of proportion a little due to US laws being very strict as they are very petrol oriented. I still think there is some BS to all these data sheets though. The results on the specs are very different from what can be obtained in the real world. That is the fault of the tests IMO rather than the manufacturers.

Fact remains though, NOx in diesel is orders of magnitude higher than petrol.

[The0pportunist]

Great reason to laugh at my smug diesel audi owner friends!
Hopefully BMWs are unaffected, the decline of VW group cars can only mean our cars will hold value better?

[mowflow]

Originally Posted by The0pportunist

Great reason to laugh at my smug diesel audi owner friends!
Hopefully BMWs are unaffected, the decline of VW group cars can only mean our cars will hold value better?

What an amazingly appropriate username you have

[The0pportunist]

Originally Posted by mowflow

What an amazingly appropriate username you have

[gangzoom]

By the looks of things ALOT of VW group diesels are pretty much 'illegal' interms of emissions, even the European cars.

If you look at the way the 'software' hack works, it changes the engine mapping when it thinks the car is been tested in an emission centre. There is no reason to believe European cars don't do exactly the same thing, so come MOT time, the ECU recognises it's indoors and about to be tested for emissions, so switches to a different map to produce the legal emissions, but once back on the road it switches back to 'normal' setting and the emissions go through the roof.

IF this is proven to be the case in Europe, VW-group are in big big trouble. Lets not forget these laws aren't there for no reasons, and it's not the consumers fault they been tricked.

But essentially all these cars are pumping out extremely high levels of harmful chemicals. Regardless of what you think about 'emissions laws' would anyone here honestly be happy to sit behind a car producing more NO than what ever the legal safety limit is??

Would you be happy for your kids to walk past a line of cars in traffic all emitting substantially more NO than what would they are legally allowed to emit??

Would anyone here like to sit in an enclose space with one of these 'clean' VW diesel engine running for more than a few minutes?? - I know I wouldn't, frankly I'll would love if all the diesels buses/vans/lorries get pulled off the road tomorrow.

I spend my days working in hospitals looking after all sort of people with end-stage (about to die) lung disease due to smoking. The adverse affects of chemicals on the body takes many decades to show up, but once the damage is done there is no going back. I hope the regulators make a example of VW's blatant disregard for emissions laws. This is going to be very very very costly for VW, and I hope it will serve as determent to all other manufactures thinking of doing the same thing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34345210