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      12-26-2014, 04:59 PM   #1
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Interesting info RE : KW v3 and clubsport for F8x (F80 M3 / F82 M4)

EDIT : revision to point number one. KW has clarified the difference between the KW v3 and clubsport dampers. quote from them below

Quote:
I was finally able to get the measurements for you for the front struts on the V3 and Clubsports.

V3 extended from rod to lower mounting point is 405mm

Clubsport from rod to lower mounting point is 362mm

V3 housing length is 282mm

Clubsport housing length is 267mm

The rears are nearly the same which I have listed for you below.

V3 Ext - 453mm/Housing – 297mm

Clubsport Ext – 450mm/Housing – 294mm

Chad Gordon

Technical Advisor
I contacted KW to ask a few key questions, and will list the answers below.

I have to say, i got a quick reply via email and they were helpful on the phone. Good customer service

1) they do NOT have any info immediately available concerning how much, if at all, the shock and strut bodies are shortened to accomodate for the lower static height. this is a critical question, and they are inquiring with the engineering department to get an answer. perhaps a vendor who has these in stock can answer this for us. IMO it is CRITICAL in determining how to best set up the car for maximum handling and ride quality.

2) the KW v3 has progressive front (no helper springs) but linear rear springs with helpers. Rear spring rate is 645lb/in (compared with 800lb/in on clubsport). No rate is available for the progressive fronts.

3) the shocks and struts are identical in construction, material, and internals between the v3 and clubsport. this shocked me (pun intended) as i thought the clubsport had superior materials and internals vs the v3. this is a big advtage for the v3 imo. the clubsport is valved differently to accomodate for the higher spring rates and does offer camber plates vs the v3 using the OEM top mounts.

4) the v3 range is .2 inches lower than the clubsport, which imo kinda sucks. .8 minimum front, 1.0 rear. clubsport offers a more reasonable .6/.8 range. perhaps due to the height of the camber plate stack, but thats speculation

I may decide to try the v3 upon learning about this. my main hangup was the fact that i believed the clubsport had higher quality dampers, and thus would be able to control the body motions better.

It would be a HUGE help to our community if a vendor could measure the length of the v3 or clubsport shocks and struts, and even better measure them vs the oem setup.

Looks like a .8/1.0 drop would allow a reasonable drop from stock and allow the car to still maintain the stock F/R weight distribution after a proper corner balance.

Learning more, but looking good.
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      12-26-2014, 06:28 PM   #2
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Good to know. Another indication that KW kits are overpriced. For similar performance, a koni based kit like TC Kline and ground control would be more bang for the buck and you get choose your own spring rates. If you are spending +4k, you might as well go with JRZ or Motion Control.
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      12-26-2014, 11:39 PM   #3
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To my best knowledge, you can choose any spring rate with KW, and if it they are outside the range that shocks can support, they will revalve them, but revalving is done only on club sports.
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      12-27-2014, 12:27 AM   #4
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I went with KW CS because I needed a drop desperately, didn't want to ruin my suspension with H&R springs and KW CS served me resonably well on the track before. Ultimately I would like to get AST, JRZ or Motons.
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      12-27-2014, 01:43 PM   #5
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Nice info, thanks for sharing.

I wonder when Ohlins Road & Track will be released for the F8x?
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      12-27-2014, 01:52 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
Nice info, thanks for sharing.

I wonder when Ohlins Road & Track will be released for the F8x?
I have no idea but I would buy it immediately

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      12-27-2014, 07:28 PM   #7
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FYI i sent an email to ohlins inquiring about the road and track kit development for the F8x chassis.......
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      12-27-2014, 08:10 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post

3) the clubsport is valved differently to accomodate for the higher spring rates

...

my main hangup was the fact that i believed the clubsport had higher quality dampers, and thus would be able to control the body motions better.
They probably are. The valving IS what determines how stiff the dampers are and how well they control the body. The V3 is most likely softer than the clubsport.
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      12-27-2014, 09:35 PM   #9
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Exactly what do you want measured? I have my KW V3 kit just sitting here in my living room in the box still. How often do you guys track your cars?
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      12-27-2014, 09:37 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tooch View Post
Exactly what do you want measured? I have my KW V3 kit just sitting here in my living room in the box still. How often do you guys track your cars?
The length of the shock and strut bodies and the total length of the entire assembly (for both a single shock and strut). And how much shorter the body and total length is than stock.

Ideally it should be shorter than the stock strut and shocks to accommodate for a lower static ride height so that full travel can be achieved. Otherwise the shocks would be already overly compressed at static height.

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      12-27-2014, 09:41 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
They probably are. The valving IS what determines how stiff the dampers are and how well they control the body. The V3 is most likely softer than the clubsport.
I'm not talking about valving, which you can modify on any shock. I'm talking about internals, materials, compression and rebound control etc.

There is bo difference in any of these characteristics from the v3 to the clubsport 2 way. So essentially you are paying 1200 dollars for camber plates and stiffer springs snd different valving.

When you jump from kW v1 to v2, you get redesigned shocks that allow for rebound adjustments. From v2 to v3, better shocks that control rebound and compression.

I am disappointed in the modifications provided for the clubsport from the v3.
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      12-27-2014, 10:05 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
I'm not talking about valving, which you can modify on any shock. I'm talking about internals, materials, compression and rebound control etc.

There is bo difference in any of these characteristics from the v3 to the clubsport 2 way. So essentially you are paying 1200 dollars for camber plates and stiffer springs snd different valving.

When you jump from kW v1 to v2, you get redesigned shocks that allow for rebound adjustments. From v2 to v3, better shocks that control rebound and compression.

I am disappointed in the modifications provided for the clubsport from the v3.
Compression and rebound control are determined by the valving. If they have different valving, they have different compression and rebound control. They have different damping forces and will perform differently in terms of ride and handling.

To illustrate this, consider that the Mustang GT350 (without performance package) and the new Ford Edge have nearly identical shocks and struts with basically the same valve design, the only difference is the valve tuning. Valving can make all the difference in the world between one shock and another.
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      12-28-2014, 11:55 AM   #13
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Here ya go. Lemme know what u find out vs the stock set up. Isn't there a way to get a diagram of the stocks? Funny angle on the pics, but the tape measure is all the way to the bottoms just looks a little off in the pictures for some reason.
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      12-29-2014, 05:54 AM   #14
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Apart from the calving and spring rates, the CS have external reservoirs with adjustment wheels which are much more accessible than the V3 which are on top

Had v3 on a few cars and can say the CS is better
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      12-29-2014, 06:59 AM   #15
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I still think the Clubsports are worth it over the V3's. Without camber plates, I don't really see any point in running coilovers unless it's for show. And with correct valving for the linear springs on top of that it is worth the extra money. That being said, your concern regarding weight distribution is a little off course. Static ride height has little effect on weight distribution. Even if you slam the front end and prop the rear up the overall weight distribution is not terribly effected, getting proper cross weight is what it's all about.
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      12-29-2014, 08:57 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
Compression and rebound control are determined by the valving. If they have different valving, they have different compression and rebound control. They have different damping forces and will perform differently in terms of ride and handling.

To illustrate this, consider that the Mustang GT350 (without performance package) and the new Ford Edge have nearly identical shocks and struts with basically the same valve design, the only difference is the valve tuning. Valving can make all the difference in the world between one shock and another.
I get what you are saying, but the thing that makes a certain set of shocks or struts more expensive or well built is not the valving necessarily, its the physical components of the shock and design. I would argue in your example that both shocks are excellent, the calibration is simply different. one should not necessarily be more expensive than the other.

that said, IIRC you work in this field, so you I do know you have more experience than I do.

I do have a basic working knowledge of how valving works, and the different types of valving that can be used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tooch View Post
Here ya go. Lemme know what u find out vs the stock set up. Isn't there a way to get a diagram of the stocks? Funny angle on the pics, but the tape measure is all the way to the bottoms just looks a little off in the pictures for some reason.
that's really helpful! hopefully you can also nab some lengths of the OEM shocks and struts, or we can get a vendor or someone else to get them so we can compare.

ill try to do some research to find these dimensions if we cant get any info in the meantime.

thanks for doing this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob MG View Post
Apart from the calving and spring rates, the CS have external reservoirs with adjustment wheels which are much more accessible than the V3 which are on top

Had v3 on a few cars and can say the CS is better
I think the v3 is likely not as good because progressive springs are not ideal for performance applications and lack the ability to be consistent and control the body well. OEM springs are linear and all expensive kits run linear springs for a reason. however, I think you would come out even more ahead running linear swift springs on a kw v3 kit than the stock clubsport but JMO.

however, only the kw clubsport 3 way have external reservoirs, and those are in a different category in terms of price and performance than the clubsport 2 way and kw v3 I was referencing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterC17 View Post
I still think the Clubsports are worth it over the V3's. Without camber plates, I don't really see any point in running coilovers unless it's for show. And with correct valving for the linear springs on top of that it is worth the extra money. That being said, your concern regarding weight distribution is a little off course. Static ride height has little effect on weight distribution. Even if you slam the front end and prop the rear up the overall weight distribution is not terribly effected, getting proper cross weight is what it's all about.
it depends on how much camber you can run with the stock top mounts.

linear springs are better than progressive, no doubt. but the kw shouldn't be as expensive as it is because linear springs aren't necessarily any more expensive to make than progressive. and different valving doesn't cost any more money, its just a different calibration.

I disagree on the weight distribution, it is very real and valid from my research and discussing with race shops. it also makes a lot of sense in theory.

do you have any reference material that would suggest otherwise? I definitely could be wrong here and would love to learn more.

http://www.meganracing.com/tech/faqs...corner-balance
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      12-29-2014, 12:57 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
it depends on how much camber you can run with the stock top mounts.

linear springs are better than progressive, no doubt. but the kw shouldn't be as expensive as it is because linear springs aren't necessarily any more expensive to make than progressive. and different valving doesn't cost any more money, its just a different calibration.

I disagree on the weight distribution, it is very real and valid from my research and discussing with race shops. it also makes a lot of sense in theory.

do you have any reference material that would suggest otherwise? I definitely could be wrong here and would love to learn more.
The stock hats are 100% non-adjustable. Therefore, you can NOT run any more camber with the stock hats. What you get from the factory is what you get.

I agree on the cost aspect regarding the springs and the valving, but to change them out after the fact would cost more than just spending the money up front.

Regarding weight distribution I'm just talking from personal experience, but ride height does not change weight distribution much as long as it's done equally around. My point being, if you dropped the car 1" all around from stock ride height weight distribution would be more or less unchanged. Regardless, the coilovers are adjustable to compensate. I guess my point is you were bringing up ride height as a concern to which coilover to get. As both are adjustable, you will be able to corner balance to your desired spec regardless, so I wouldn't pick one over the other based on that. My other point however was that corner balancing can only change weight distribution a small amount.

Furthermore, while 50/50 weight distribution is considered "ideal" by many, in reality, especially considering the torque on this car, I'd much rather have a rear bias weight distribution.

EDIT: Double furthermore, dropping the ride height generally does not negatively effect (and in some cases improves) handling until the tie rod starts to point at an upward (as opposed to a downward or flat) angle. This induces what we call bump-steer which is a no-no. Otherwise, dropping the center of gravity is a positive and lowering the car also improves aerodynamics.
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      12-29-2014, 01:29 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90
Nice info, thanks for sharing.

I wonder when Ohlins Road & Track will be released for the F8x?
I've been communicating with them since the summer and it seems it'll be a while until they are released.

I had them on my E92 and as great as they were on the road, they left me uninspired during track use. The spring rates are way soft, even on street tires. Yes you can change the springs for Swifts but again you're limited by what the dampening can handle. Also the Ohlins are held only by one bolt up top where the KW's fit tight inside the uprights.

The KW Club's in general are a better choice for my use after my education with the Ohlins.
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      12-29-2014, 10:19 PM   #19
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I have KW v3 and notice a huge improvement over stock performance, even without adjustable camber. Stock front camber is -1.5 btw.

Of course if I planned to track this car more, I would go CS.

I also inquired about Ohlins and was told 1 year out.
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      12-30-2014, 08:43 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterC17 View Post
The stock hats are 100% non-adjustable. Therefore, you can NOT run any more camber with the stock hats. What you get from the factory is what you get.

I agree on the cost aspect regarding the springs and the valving, but to change them out after the fact would cost more than just spending the money up front.

Regarding weight distribution I'm just talking from personal experience, but ride height does not change weight distribution much as long as it's done equally around. My point being, if you dropped the car 1" all around from stock ride height weight distribution would be more or less unchanged. Regardless, the coilovers are adjustable to compensate. I guess my point is you were bringing up ride height as a concern to which coilover to get. As both are adjustable, you will be able to corner balance to your desired spec regardless, so I wouldn't pick one over the other based on that. My other point however was that corner balancing can only change weight distribution a small amount.

Furthermore, while 50/50 weight distribution is considered "ideal" by many, in reality, especially considering the torque on this car, I'd much rather have a rear bias weight distribution.

EDIT: Double furthermore, dropping the ride height generally does not negatively effect (and in some cases improves) handling until the tie rod starts to point at an upward (as opposed to a downward or flat) angle. This induces what we call bump-steer which is a no-no. Otherwise, dropping the center of gravity is a positive and lowering the car also improves aerodynamics.
lowering is good, provided the shock bodies you have are shortened enough to still provide full travel with your chosen ride height. check my next post with details from KW. the clubsport bodies are shortened significantly over the kw v3 per my correspondence with KW. this is a huge advantage and could be why many are reporting much better body control with the clubsport, despite the much firmer spring rates and inclusion of ride quality degrading camber plates

maybe I was unclear in my discussion of maintaining appropriate weight distribution. I was saying that it is good that these coilovers allow for a small drop and the ability to close that gap, maintain good suspension travel, AND properly corner balance for ideal F/R weight distrbibution.

and I also 100% agree that 50/50 is not ideal. closer to 40/60 seems to be ideal, and is why the real exotic cars like the r8, lambos, and Ferrari are mid engined.

however, the BMW is never going to have a rear bias, and at best we can maintain the already too nose heavy distribution and not mess it up further by lowering the front more than the rear. in fact, I think that real world the car has been shown to be more like 51/49.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RingMeister01 View Post
I've been communicating with them since the summer and it seems it'll be a while until they are released.

I had them on my E92 and as great as they were on the road, they left me uninspired during track use. The spring rates are way soft, even on street tires. Yes you can change the springs for Swifts but again you're limited by what the dampening can handle. Also the Ohlins are held only by one bolt up top where the KW's fit tight inside the uprights.

The KW Club's in general are a better choice for my use after my education with the Ohlins.
can you go into a little more detail on the difference between the two on road and track? did you find the clubsport appropriate for road use? how much worse than the ohlins was the ride? and I remember seeing the weirdly soft front spring rates on the ohlins for the e92 IIRC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoopumpers View Post
I have KW v3 and notice a huge improvement over stock performance, even without adjustable camber. Stock front camber is -1.5 btw.

Of course if I planned to track this car more, I would go CS.

I also inquired about Ohlins and was told 1 year out.
I talked to ohlins yesterday and was given no timeline, but told they were literally at the top of their list.

what settings/ride height are your KW set at?
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      12-30-2014, 08:49 AM   #21
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Thumbs up

so, before I mentioned that KW told me that there was NO difference mechanically or physically between the clubsport shocks and struts and the V3. length is the same etc.

well, that appears to be wrong after getting confirmation from my contact at KW. per a request to the design engineers, here is what I learned.

Quote:
I was finally able to get the measurements for you for the front struts on the V3 and Clubsports.

V3 extended from rod to lower mounting point is 405mm

Clubsport from rod to lower mounting point is 362mm

V3 housing length is 282mm

Clubsport housing length is 267mm


Chad Gordon

Technical Advisor
HUGE advantage IMO for clubsports, and certainly supports many peoples comments that clubsports have more body control and control rebound much more effectively.

this, along with using linear spring rates, cements the clubsports for me. the shorter lengths of the dampers are clearly designed around the fact that the suspension kit will lower the car.

considering that the clubsport kit allows for a .6" drop front and .8" drop rear minimum, i will order the kit in the coming months and run this ride height calibration (corner balanced of course). this should provide maximum suspension travel and be very close to stock suspension travel.

great communication and info from KW.

the only question we have left is the total length of the stock shocks and struts.....
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      12-30-2014, 11:31 AM   #22
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Great info, definitely supports my decision to go with Clubsports over V3's in the future. Thank you!
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