[lemetier]

Originally Posted by Nordkeyz73

I agree and am hoping this autonomous stuff is left out of M and even M Performance models (option only). On a side note, is it 550e or 550i? Still hoping for that V8...

There are clearly some updated "Active Driver Assistant" features on the F90 and Autonomous is a tricky word to use in relation to M Cars. Some of the same features that are Fully Autonomous in G30, could be programmed differently or implemented in a partially Autonomous way on the F90 and future M Cars. ACC for example could require steering wheel contact (as it does currently) with the active lane change assistant requiring some type of driver confirmation (turn signal activation for example). I can only speak from personal interest, but ACC with active lane change/overtaking, is long overdue; M5 or not.

For the US/CAN Market, the lineup will be something along the lines of:

525i
530i/e
540i/e/d
550i (possibly M550i in lieu)
M550d
550e Performance.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by nirvanayoda

Are you suggesting, then, that there is still a possibility that the next M5/M6 may still have an AWD option or is that possibility foreclosed at this point?

There is no doubt that a drivetrain capable of powering all 4 wheels is coming with the F90. As Scott mentioned, what markets receive it as standard, what markets will have it as an option, and special variants with or without it will vary. Still a while to go, but the regional model offerings might actually be surprising rather than "disappointing" to the "purists".

[germancarfan]

Originally Posted by miamiten

First, I don't have a "beef" with the other guy. Someone with 5 total posts that all have phrases "this is a BMW Blog but...., the Mercedes xxx did xxx compared to xxx" is fanboy-ism.

There is a current gen CTS-V Nordschleife time. It's also been removed from easy online search (GM is not the only company to spend the money to do so). During the attempts, the car did experience a significant crash. This was the final straw for Nurburgring owners after a slew of incidents that put their insurance coverage at risk and implementation of the most restrictive speed limits were carried out. Waivers to speed limits were granted in certain areas with the warning any documented official lap time records by Manufacturers were not allowed.

As to the M5 CP/MDP under 7:30, I know most, if not all of the driver's. This one in particular is the most humble and least "competitive" of the group. There is no reason to lie. I've driven it in 7:39.42 myself using a car from the same identically equipped fleet. I also do not drive the Nordschleife frequently enough to feel comfortable pushing the limits on certain sections given the situations where the F10 M5 has some unpredictable traits that appear in several areas of the circuit.

The CTS-V and ATS-V are amazing cars. Both are a better overall package than the F10/F80/F82 M's.

Where the Fxx M5/M6's show something spectacular is an area (speed range) where most can not experience.

On the M760i (and Alpina B7), my estimates are not just pulling numbers out of my ass. They also are very surprising to me as to how small evolutions of vehicle dynamics have such an immense impact. There is something called Physics from which vehicle performance can be calculated using the principles of it. It requires some technical information to be available to do so. With both of those cars, there are public figures that have not been released where reverse extrapolation can be used. Direct calculation requires internal knowledge of certain values and component operation and use would violate my ND agreements. As soon as the preliminary asterisks and TBD figures convert to MFR Estimates, I'll happily use those and provide the evidence. The Fxx M5/M6 could be significantly faster both in time and velocity if they weren't hampered by the significant tractive force limitation and drivetrain resistance at lower velocities. The tricks the Nissan GTR utilize to achieve its high figures appear in the B7, M760i, and upcoming M's. Some already appear which is why the current M5/M6, when equipped a certain way, have very different acceleration values above a particular velocity point.

Like i expected, I'm a troll because i have an objective view of cars. I'm sorry that I don't live in the past and think because BMW use to make the best sports/luxury car in the segment back in the 90's that fact still remains true today. I love the BMW brand and honestly wish they would go back to the original formula that made them who they are today but that's just not our reality. I've only posted a couple times and misquoting me by saying, "I know this is a BMW board but" doesn't gain your any credibility in my book. That being said I love this forum amongst all the german brands because of some of the bloggers passion and knowledge. That said I also believe it's quite disingenuous to label someone a "troll" because their opinion or "fanboyism" as you like to call it is different from yours. What i stated wasn't anything but the truth. The FACTS while sometimes being the lightest BMW's are not always the best handling cars in the segment and to label a car that you haven't driven as such is jumping the gun.

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

A very crude 1st render on how the M5 bumper might look like based on my G30 M sport render...

I've advanced more on this render, but since the new G30 will be released soon with official pics, I believe I'll be able to make a much more realistic one of the F90 based on the official G30 pics...

[Boss330]

Short clip of the F90 M5 testing at the Nurburgring on May 17th. Watch from ca 6:31 to see the M5

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Short clip of the F90 M5 testing at the Nurburgring on May 17th. Watch from ca 6:31 to see the M5

2er Gran Tourer coping well there.

[swagon]

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by swagon

Looks like they are setting some timed laps as they are pushing quite hard in some of the shots.

Also, allmost looks like a square wheel setup from some of the angles?

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Looks like they are setting some timed laps as they are pushing quite hard in some of the shots.

Also, allmost looks like a square wheel setup from some of the angles?

Looks like both versions - RWD and AWD are present. Hearing that there will be an M5 at Paris in Oct.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by miamiten

Even though germancarfan is a troll, my statement wasn't brand biased. Any true car enthusiast who has seen the latest round of E63S spy vids at the Nordschleife would be nigh on impotent if they didn't get the fizzy feeling down below watching them. No doubt it's a monster and does handle quite well. It also will be quite a bit heavier. The C63S weighs as much as a 6cyl LWB 7 Series, the E43 as much as an 8cyl SWB 7 Series, and the new E63S will weight in the 4500 lb region. The F90 weight goal is quite a bit lower than that. It also will have some tricks up its sleeve. The current M5/E63S are fairly close and each one's benefit/detriment equal out most of the time.

Nordschleife times are the most manipulated times around and why BMW rarely makes the documentation public. There are 3 total configurations (Tourist, Manufacturer, and Race) and different speed restrictions depending on who the responsible party is for the car and the driver's license credentials. There isn't really a completely legal way to combine all of them and not violate a track restriction (Fines) while recording a time that isn't open for dispute.

AMS times are also very questionable in a way. They are the most consistent dude to Horst von Saurma as the driver, but he doesn't usually drive above 7-8/10's in the twisty bits.

The CTS-V Nordschleife "official" times are well known to be rigged through the use of performance enhancements (Pilot Sport Cup Tires, Magnesium wheels and UDM Wheels) and configurations made in the interest of "safety". Porsche did the same with the 918 by using a fixed roof prototype and de-contented interior. An F10 M5 with Competition Package and M Driver's Package, driven by one specific Factory Test Driver, with nothing but a more appropriate brake pad change on iron brakes, can complete a full lap in under 7:30. The other Factory Drivers can do it in the low 7:30 range.

Saying vehicle X is faster than vehicle Z all the time based off various recordings doesn't always work. Take the 918. One of the fastest production cars in the world. Yet it's slower on the Goodwood Hill Climb course than a Rolls Royce Wraith (which was within a few 10ths of a second behind the Bentley Continental GT3-R).

Not commenting on, or getting into, the "Nurburgring lap time" debacle. But IMO there's a few inaccuracies in your post.

Horst Von Saurma doesn't do the Sport Auto Supertest lap times anymore, and haven't done for some time now. Christian Gebhardt has taken over HvS' duties as their Supertest editor and lap time driver.

There currently aren't any speed limits on the Nordschleife. Lap times and lap records are fully legal to set.

Further, during industry pool sessions, speed limits was lifted last year. Which is why the M4 GTS was able to set it's time in a fully public and legal manner. Also, Sport Auto was allowed to set some laps during industry pool sessions without speed limits last year (they wrote about it in the magazine).

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by miamiten

Looks like both versions - RWD and AWD are present. Hearing that there will be an M5 at Paris in Oct.

But are you saying that the F10 M5 CP is as quick around Nurburgring as the M4 GTS????

(give or take a second since you said "under 7:30")

[somer]

gear changes sound more like the ZF-8speed in sound than the DCT

[SCOTT26]

Its an upgraded M-DKG.

[Baltic_M2]

Originally Posted by Jason

It's me at 01:50! :'D
Hype!

[spuntyb]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

The M5 is like the ultimate Swiss Army knife. You can drive the family, you can use it as a comfy cruiser in city traffic, and you can drive it like a maniac on the highway and in the mountains.

But if BMW thinks us M5 drivers are redlining it with paddle shifters in city traffic, then you are idiots! autonomous driving is useful for the occasions when you are stuck in traffic and doing the mind numbing stop go exercise. In this scenario I would love to switch to autopilot because then I can use my phone and relax a bit.

So yes I want autonomous features in my M5 and if BMW doesn't offer it then I will switch to a W214 E63S instead because Mercedes is going to offer it.

The kind of narrow minded comment you just posted is the kind of hubris that causes great companies to fail. If you think every M5 driver is driving flat out on country roads all the time then you know nothing about your customers.

This is why I'm leaning towards the E63 wagon when our F31 lease is up in 2018. Love the look of the M5, and the size would be right for us (although it work better as a wagon imho), but there's little reason not to offer this kind of feature. I disagree that it's the wrong move for the M5, as I'm sure they've done their homework, but I was kind of hoping in the back of my mind it might be offered at least. But I get it.

[gmfive]

Originally Posted by swagon

That beast needs better rubber and some suspension hacking. It does seem lighter and more willing to be thrown around than our F10 beasts.

[somer]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Its an upgraded M-DKG.

nice!

[bigbob86]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Sorry have I got this right?
You want an Autonomous M5?
The M5 is a car that has to be driven and not by itself.

I might be wrong, but a vehicle that you can ride in whitout having to drive it yourselve.....isn't that what others mean by taking the buss

a BMW should Always be the drivers choice of car, otherwise just go and buy a Benz.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

I think I know what the M5 is as I have owned one from E34 to the present day with an E61 M5 Touring and 30 Jahre. So I know all too well about its flexibility.
And that is the great thing about the 30 Jahre getting it onto the road after work and stretching its legs on the way home to Grünwald.
I use an i3 if I residence in Munich.
\

In America nobody who drives an m5 is going to have an i3 to drive around the city. Parking is not a problem, the roads are plenty wide in our large cities. I'd much rather by in traffic in my M5 with its seats (which are the best in the entire BMW lineup) than in any other BMW.

I don't see what's wrong with adding some autonomous features. Did you know that even the Porsche 911 Turbo S has active cruise control and radar-assisted pre-collision technology? And yet you think the M5 use case is too sporty for this kind of technology?

Get out of town. You (not BMW) are arrogant telling customers what they want instead of asking. In fact I can't think of a single instance where you as a BMW representative have ever asked for the opinions of your customers. As far as I am concerned you can continue to make what you want, and if its good I will buy it, but this upcoming generation of BMWs will not receive my business. I bought 3 F10 generation cars FWIW.

[BGR]

Looks to have a lot o under steer. Does pushing the current gen to the same limits induce that much?

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

In America nobody who drives an m5 is going to have an i3 to drive around the city. Parking is not a problem, the roads are plenty wide in our large cities. I'd much rather by in traffic in my M5 with its seats (which are the best in the entire BMW lineup) than in any other BMW.

I don't see what's wrong with adding some autonomous features. Did you know that even the Porsche 911 Turbo S has active cruise control and radar-assisted pre-collision technology? And yet you think the M5 use case is too sporty for this kind of technology?

Get out of town. You (not BMW) are arrogant telling customers what they want instead of asking. In fact I can't think of a single instance where you as a BMW representative have ever asked for the opinions of your customers. As far as I am concerned you can continue to make what you want, and if its good I will buy it, but this upcoming generation of BMWs will not receive my business. I bought 3 F10 generation cars FWIW.

I'm pretty sure BMW, like any other car company, does customer surveys to establish customer preferences for their various models. Just as they most likely follow internet forums to see public opinions. So I'm pretty sure that those questions have been asked. Perhaps not by Scott, and perhaps not to you, but why should we expect him to ask us? Is his role within BMW to conduct customer surveys? I'm glad he shares the details he can. Why attack the messenger?

Sometimes companies get their decisions wrong and create a product that fails. So far it seems BMW M is doing pretty well with their product line up as far as sales and commercial value goes. On subjective matters like handling, performance, sound etc, there will allways be different opinions amongst the public. But they have to offer what the majority is willing to buy or want in a BMW M. If not they go out of business.

I dont see that as arrogant, just being business smart.

[Jblack4083]

The real problem with this forum is everyone thinks they know what's best for BMW.

Autonomous M5 guy... I feel your pain as I too would love to text and drive safely in traffic while looking cool in my F90 M5. But this is BMW who has done studies, market resesrch, and gathered statistics on past experiences. Just because YOU personally have not been asked what you want in an M5 doesnt mean others havent. Scott26 is also not an intern and his job is not to collect surveys from bimmerpost.com

With that said. Don't shoot the messenger.

I would opt for my M5 without autonomous aids because I can't imagine a computer driving something this powerful for me. It doesnt seem safe and it also sounds like ZERO fun.

Most buyers buy an M5 with speed and driving pleasure somewhere in their mind. Where I work, there is almost always someone who enjoys going fast driving behind the wheel of an M5. Regular commute guys who are paid well typically end up in 535s and 550s regardless of salary. M cars are special cars still today, as much as forum members would love to claim they are not and how BMW has lost its way. You have to truly WANT to put up with the extra power, the moderately firmer suspension, the added noise (on the outside lol), etc...

If the cost benefit breakdown of providing autonomous aids on the next M5 dont line up correctly, I can see why. But this is completely BMWs prerogative. Not yours. Picking the vehicle you like, IS yours. If the BMW isn't that, you've got plenty of alternatives. I'll still be in my M car.