[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I scratch my head on this issue. Land Rover is now in the premium sector. The original Defender was not. Traditional 'Land Rover' users and 'anoraks' are not looking at premium, but a vehicle fulfilling pretty much its original brief, factors which made it famous and successful.

JLR is not going to make the same money (if any) on a basic low end model. As we all know, optioned higher end models make the money. Making money is one of the reasons the original Defender died, required a big investment, just to keep up with current regulations, emissions, etc.

Will be interesting to see where the Defender gets parked. Farm yards, building sites, or on the drives in suburbia.

For me it’s good car and will sell well. I just think that most of the sales will come at the expense of others cars in in the LR range.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by Lynxi2k

It's interesting that when it comes to utilitarian vehicles we all suddenly wonder who "needs" this type of vehicle, when we are happy to drive big engined saloons or coupe's for driving to work and back...

If you want it, then buy it.

Good on Ineos for this, I don't need this anymore than I need an M3, but I'd like both!

LoL never a truer word said!

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

For me it’s good car and will sell well. I just think that most of the sales will come at the expense of others cars in in the LR range.

Yup JLR better be worries about the value of this. There's a made in Britain, supporting British jobs element too.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

BMW have loads of cars in loads of sectors.

Land Rover don’t.

And the people who cared about the Defender name and tradition aren’t the ones being catered for, so why not let it die? Or, bring it back in a different guise, more workhorse like the original? It wasn’t compulsory to make it how it is.

And you’ve said yourself that the Disco is struggling at the moment, and this might not help, and could kill it off. Is that any better than letting a model already gone, stay gone?

No one really wants a 2 litre, doesn’t suit them, so the Disco does end up competing with the RR Sport on price and now this on space and function. And yes they’re different, but not massively so. Didn’t you sit in both a Disco and RR Sport before you decided which suited you better?

Yes, I drove both extensively before buying. The RRS and Disco are very different propositions. Far more different than a X3 and X5, for instance. I spent 24hrs plus in all four in 3 litre diesel form.

You are also seeing the Defender and Discovery through the lens of today, rather than when they were signing off those two plans. I'd imagine that they wanted the Discovery to sell more 2 litres and to take a bigger bite globally out of the Q7/XC90/3 row SUV market.

You are also assuming you are right about the Defender only cannibalising sales - let's judge that in 3 or 4 years, if the car market returns to a form of normality.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Yes, I drove both extensively before buying. The RRS and Disco are very different propositions. Far more different than a X3 and X5, for instance. I spent 24hrs plus in all four in 3 litre diesel form.

You are also seeing the Defender and Discovery through the lens of today, rather than when they were signing off those two plans. I'd imagine that they wanted the Discovery to sell more 2 litres and to take a bigger bite globally out of the Q7/XC90/3 row SUV market.

You are also assuming you are right about the Defender only cannibalising sales - let's judge that in 3 or 4 years, if the car market returns to a form of normality.

I’m judging it through a lens that makes the new Defender look and feel a lot like a Mark 4 Disco. That would have been known at sign off.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I’m judging it through a lens that makes the new Defender look and feel a lot like a Mark 4 Disco. That would have been known at sign off.

Correct. And said as much when they launched the Discovery 5.

It's a strategy, just one that you happen to disagree with.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Correct. And said as much when they launched the Discovery 5.

It's a strategy, just one that you happen to disagree with.

Yes, that’s right. What other point did you think I was making? I was giving an opinion.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

Yes, that's right. What other point did you think I was making? I was giving an opinion.

Yes, it's just a bit odd that you support the idea of BMW competing in as many sectors as they can, but not JLR. I think that you probably just don't realise how diverse each model is from the other. I've not been near a new Defender, but if I did spend some time with one I would expect it to be as different from the Discovery as that is from the RRS.

[Danny Fireblade]

I might be the odd one out here as I own a 22 year old 300tdi 110. I use this for my hobby and i actually love driving this, albeit not as quickly as the 430d, but it is so useable and I didn't think I would want to change it, even with all its quirks and foibles.

Then Ineos go and design the Grenadier. Depending on pricing etc I can quite easily see me in one, and I think if they stay true to what they have promised then they will easily sell all they can make, not just here but all around the world.

If JLR had the balls to go this route then they would have been on a winner for sure, but unfortunately I think the new Defender is destined to sink and be discontinued in a few short years.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Danny Fireblade

I might be the odd one out here as I own a 22 year old 300tdi 110. I use this for my hobby and i actually love driving this, albeit not as quickly as the 430d, but it is so useable and I didn't think I would want to change it, even with all its quirks and foibles.

Then Ineos go and design the Grenadier. Depending on pricing etc I can quite easily see me in one, and I think if they stay true to what they have promised then they will easily sell all they can make, not just here but all around the world.

If JLR had the balls to go this route then they would have been on a winner for sure, but unfortunately I think the new Defender is destined to sink and be discontinued in a few short years.

Good to have the Defender owner view!

What are the killer points for the Grenadier over the new Defender for you? Is it just the ladder chassis?Genuine question - I've never off-roaded.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Yes, I drove both extensively before buying. The RRS and Disco are very different propositions. Far more different than a X3 and X5, for instance. I spent 24hrs plus in all four in 3 litre diesel form.

You are also seeing the Defender and Discovery through the lens of today, rather than when they were signing off those two plans. I'd imagine that they wanted the Discovery to sell more 2 litres and to take a bigger bite globally out of the Q7/XC90/3 row SUV market.

You are also assuming you are right about the Defender only cannibalising sales - let's judge that in 3 or 4 years, if the car market returns to a form of normality.

Most Discos I see (hear) seem to be the 4 pot these days, although that could just be the new estate I live on...

Interestingly (or not..) didn’t the mk1 RRS sit on a disco 4 chassis but the new one owes more to FFRR?

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Yes, it's just a bit odd that you support the idea of BMW competing in as many sectors as they can, but not JLR. I think that you probably just don't realise how diverse each model is from the other. I've not been near a new Defender, but if I did spend some time with one I would expect it to be as different from the Discovery as that is from the RRS.

I do support JLR competing in as many sectors as they can, that was my point.

This is competing with themselves in the same sector.

A car that by your own admission is a lot like the old Disco is not a leap forward into a new area. It is just filling the same space with a slightly different car.

If you think they’re all radically different then that’s your choice. I don’t think they are.

And JLR told me directly that the Velar and Evoque stole sales from each other, and their prices are different and sizes are different, but they’re still in the same general space.

[Danny Fireblade]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Good to have the Defender owner view!

What are the killer points for the Grenadier over the new Defender for you? Is it just the ladder chassis?Genuine question - I've never off-roaded.

To begin with the looks. The Grenadier actually looks like how the new Defender should have looked, and not how someone with no idea what Defender owners actually wanted thinks it should look like. There are so many defender owners out there that would have purchased the replacement if it was vaguely similar however JLR seems to have discarded that.

The Grenadier looks like it can handle steeper approach and descent angles, and looks less plasticky. I am sure the new defender will be excellent off road, however it just looks like bits will be falling off it as soon as a branch brushes against it.

JLR have gone for the market where people won't venture off tarmac, where I think Ineos have gone for the market where there will be a fair bit of off road use, be it on building sites, farms or even the likes of the large utility companies.

Let's just hope they get the pricing right. If it undercuts the Defender by at least 5k then JLR will have a very big problem on their hands.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I do support JLR competing in as many sectors as they can, that was my point.

This is competing with themselves in the same sector.

A car that by your own admission is a lot like the old Disco is not a leap forward into a new area. It is just filling the same space with a slightly different car.

If you think they’re all radically different then that’s your choice. I don’t think they are.

And JLR told me directly that the Velar and Evoque stole sales from each other, and their prices are different and sizes are different, but they’re still in the same general space.

By my own admission, it's a lot like the old Disco because the new Disco is not like the old Disco. And the old Disco sold well.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Danny Fireblade

To begin with the looks. The Grenadier actually looks like how the new Defender should have looked, and not how someone with no idea what Defender owners actually wanted thinks it should look like. There are so many defender owners out there that would have purchased the replacement if it was vaguely similar however JLR seems to have discarded that.

The Grenadier looks like it can handle steeper approach and descent angles, and looks less plasticky. I am sure the new defender will be excellent off road, however it just looks like bits will be falling off it as soon as a branch brushes against it.

JLR have gone for the market where people won't venture off tarmac, where I think Ineos have gone for the market where there will be a fair bit of off road use, be it on building sites, farms or even the likes of the large utility companies.

Let's just hope they get the pricing right. If it undercuts the Defender by at least 5k then JLR will have a very big problem on their hands.

I don't know about not venturing off tarmac, on the D5 forum a lot of cars go a long way off-road - particularly the non-UK cars but not exclusively. Some of the damage makes me wince They also probably do a lot of on-road miles to get there though.

But can see certainly that the Ineos might be tougher and stand up to more body abuse than the Defender. Approach and departure angles key.

Hope the Ineos does well, it's good to see someone doing something like this.

ETA - on the looks, it's a bit too much of a photocopy to me. Again, I like it, but prefer the Defender. Don't really think of functional cars being bought for looks though (see my driveway for evidence!).

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

Most Discos I see (hear) seem to be the 4 pot these days, although that could just be the new estate I live on...

Interestingly (or not..) didn’t the mk1 RRS sit on a disco 4 chassis but the new one owes more to FFRR?

That's right. Old RRS was on the D4 twin-chassis. New D5 is on the monocoque FFRR/RRS platform (D7u in LR speak iirc).

The Defender is on a further evolution - D7x iirc. It's that that I had assumed was the most controversial point about the new Defender.

[RENT-A-GOAT]

I really like the grenadier it's got a lot going for it


1. A design team made up of ex Landrover & Mercedes engineers
2. BMW powerplants
3.ZF gearboxes
4. A rugged utility styling which has very much a classic Defender & Gwagen language
5. UK made with satellite operations in Germany & Poland

I have relatives who are in farming and they are saying if it does what is promised it could have them back in a defenderesque vehicle after switching out from years of defender ownership to various marques of better suited, less stolen to order & more up to the task pickups. Their comments about the new TATA "Defender" as they call it have been hilarious much to the upset of others in the family who are JLR workers involved in the project.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by Danny Fireblade

To begin with the looks. The Grenadier actually looks like how the new Defender should have looked, and not how someone with no idea what Defender owners actually wanted thinks it should look like. There are so many defender owners out there that would have purchased the replacement if it was vaguely similar however JLR seems to have discarded that.

The Grenadier looks like it can handle steeper approach and descent angles, and looks less plasticky. I am sure the new defender will be excellent off road, however it just looks like bits will be falling off it as soon as a branch brushes against it.

JLR have gone for the market where people won't venture off tarmac, where I think Ineos have gone for the market where there will be a fair bit of off road use, be it on building sites, farms or even the likes of the large utility companies.

Let's just hope they get the pricing right. If it undercuts the Defender by at least 5k then JLR will have a very big problem on their hands.

It already undercuts it by more then £5k from what I think I've seen.

JLR new Defender is from £45k and that's a base base model 90 (there is good standard spec though, it's almost ridicukojs, I think surround view is standard?)

INEOS is from £35k and top model is £45k?


PS Can't wait to see one rebadged

[Danny Fireblade]

Originally Posted by JustChris

It already undercuts it by more then £5k from what I think I've seen.

JLR new Defender is from £45k and that's a base base model 90 (there is good standard spec though, it's almost ridicukojs, I think surround view is standard?)

INEOS is from £35k and top model is £45k?


PS Can't wait to see one rebadged

I had read about the pricing, but would like to see it confirmed before I get too excited, lol.

I am looking forward to the utility version if they end up doing one.

[Lynxi2k]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

My angle is not who "needs" one, (Defender or Grenadier), but more, where is the volume market? Will they take back a good share of the current and highly rated Japanese workhorses? Or is it going to be another lifestyle vehicle?, with the 'essentials' for mounting a pavement to park.

My comment was aimed at the "I know a woman who wants one and she doesn't own a farm" as if it is/should be a prerequisite for owning or wanting a utilitarian vehicle.

I'm not convinced there is a volume market for these either, but if interest(like this post) translate into sales it could do ok, or it will be a limited run cult vehicle that holds value very well! As everything else it will come down to price, if they price themselves out of the market then it will be a very niche vehicle.

[Lynxi2k]

Originally Posted by Danny Fireblade

I might be the odd one out here as I own a 22 year old 300tdi 110. I use this for my hobby and i actually love driving this, albeit not as quickly as the 430d, but it is so useable and I didn't think I would want to change it, even with all its quirks and foibles.

Then Ineos go and design the Grenadier. Depending on pricing etc I can quite easily see me in one, and I think if they stay true to what they have promised then they will easily sell all they can make, not just here but all around the world.

If JLR had the balls to go this route then they would have been on a winner for sure, but unfortunately I think the new Defender is destined to sink and be discontinued in a few short years.

I suspect that this is the reason that the Defender stopped selling as it did and a new route was taken.

I used to offroad a series 3 LR, you have a 22 year old defender. People that I met generally(odd exception) ran old defenders/90's/110's series landrovers and old rangies and disco's. Then you look at the other core defender users, probably running older models into the ground, not buying new defenders every 3 years to put to work.

There is silly amount of landrovers that are still in use, JLR may have terrible reliability, however the older LR models were easy to repair at home. When they stop passing MOT's they become farm vehicles or specialist offroaders, but still in use.

I think the fact that so many "proper defender buyers" likely still have an old defender or other LR to use for work or offroading is why new models didn't sell as well, as no matter what you do to the defender it was never designed to be an SUV. The market for someone willing to compromise on everything to drive a new defender(not latest) as a daily was a very nice market.

It makes sense for the new defender to be more usable everyday and appeal to SUV drivers. I'm not sure the Granadier makes sense, but I still like it!

[TiredGeek]

Some very interesting comments in here, valid points mostly, but it seems very few of you have ever actually driven an old Defender.

They're nothing at all like anything else on the road. To drive one regularly is a chore, and a chore the owners love.
There's just something about the driving experience that draws you in, it's like driving a 50's classic. It's fun. It's involving. It's bloody hard work. It's slow. The handling is awful. It's noisy. It's also more addictive than crack.

Personally I think sales of the last live axle Defenders tailed off was because the price started to creep up above the competition.
Who in their right mind is going to fork out £10k more for a Defender when there are much better vehicles around that arguably do the job better. Only dye in the blood owners, and as has been pointed out above, there's simply not enough of those around.

The new Defender is a modified Discovery with a name trying to capitalise on the heritage.
FAR too many computers, soft looking bodywork, designed for the city and maybe to tow a horsebox.
Great vehicle yes, misses the mark by a mile and waaaaaaaaaay too pricey.
If you see one in utility company markings then you just know they got a 50% discount.

I don't think it will sell well, classic Defender owners won't want one, even if they could afford it, and the people who do buy it will be buying into the lifestyle and would have bought a Discovery / Velar / RRS / Jaguar if they hadn't bought this.

I've had several Landies over the years, if it wasn't for the tax, fuel consumption and the fact that I regularly do a 500 mile each way trip I'd have another. But it would be a heavily modified live axle Defender. For a road car I'll stick with the 335 thanks