M235 viable alternative to M4?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

firstly the F2X chassis is derived from the E8X underpinnings....so there really isn't THAT much difference in the fundamental architecture aside from increased wheelbase and additional small dimension tweaks.

I am curious where you've learned this information from. Can you provide a link?

All previous indications I've seen indicate that the F2x is a relative of the F3x modular architecture, similar in a way to the F0x/F1x platform. For example, SCOTT has used the phrase "F20/F30 platform" such as in this post: http://f20.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536650

Some construction methods were likely changed to reduce costs as the E8X was an 'expensive' car for BMW to build as it was essentially a 3-series underneath. The structure of the 2-series is very very similar underneath to the 1-series. The bushings and stuff....sure that may have changed...but are not hard to modify aftermarket anyways.

But the fact that E8x was derived from the E9x is at least as likely (if not more so) to keep costs low as it is to increase them. A similar situation should hold for the F2x/F3x.

[IEDEI]

what I know is based off conversations with someone who often works for BMW as a product consult.....BMW really screwed up their profit margins with the E8X 1 series by having a really expensive to produce car that couldn't be sold at a premium price in every market----there's no way they would want to repeat that mistake with the F2X.

From what I've been told in the past, the 1-series was never profitable enough to develop a new chassis for this generation, so they had decided on just tweaking the old chassis with more efficient production costs instead of putting the 2 on a whole new chassis design.

I have actually emailed the source of this info to see if I can get further clarification on this matter.

EDIT: OK so just had a conversation with someone in the loop and he said there is a lot of carryover from the E8X 1-series to the F2X 1 and 2-series----however the electric system and suspension architecture has been modified, hence those systems will have the most significant performance differences. Otherwise, there's not a lot different. The suspension differences will be the primary difference here it seems.

[shaz1410]

guys thanks for the advice, current update is my local dealer who ive done a fair bit of business with recently have given me a 135 to test over the next few days, the logic being that mechanically the 235 will be near enough identical, first impressions fantastic engine and handling, feels fast enough,fun but maybe lacking in solidity, kinda hard to explain maybe down to the suspension settings but il stretch the legs on it over the next few days and experiment with the settings.

with regards to the m4 now im not sure if this info is out there already but the dealer phoned me yesterday and confirmed that hed just received a set date in june thats going to be the international launch date, cant remember exactly but will ask again tomorrow, but he said this is when the first deliveries will take place. what he did say was if i hold of till jan when the pricing and options on the m4 are confirmed if i place an order i should have the june delivery, theres no need for a test drive if it falls in my budget then i will order however he also said if its outwith my budget come jan then if i place an order on the 235 i will should receive the car in the first batch of deliveries in march, dealer also confirmed absolutely no deals on m4 for first year, deals available on 235

so the moral of the story, i dont need a test in the m4 i know its going to blow me away, so if i can afford it i will order, if its outwith then i will go with the 235 and stick with for a couple of years, enjoy it then find a deal on m4, either way I MUST HAVE THE M4, i will not make the same mistake

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

The f80 m3 will be the size of the e39 m5.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. That's like saying an F30 335i is the size of an E39 M5. It isn't! The dimensions of the M3 aren't that much bigger than the lesser 3-Series that it's based on.

[Eddien123]

Originally Posted by paddy335

If you are keen on the compact 235i, why not wait a bit longer and get the M2.

Or, get a 1M.

Don't count on an M2

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

OK so just had a conversation with someone in the loop and he said there is a lot of carryover from the E8X 1-series to the F2X 1 and 2-series----however the electric system and suspension architecture has been modified, hence those systems will have the most significant performance differences. Otherwise, there's not a lot different. The suspension differences will be the primary difference here it seems.

Electric steering? Capability of AWD?

Looking past those fairly large omissions, what you describe is fairly typical for platform evolution. The same changes resulted in the switch from E9x to F3x, so I still don't see the evidence that the E8x is derived from the F2x as you had said formerly.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Electric steering? Capability of AWD?

Looking past those fairly large omissions, what you describe is fairly typical for platform evolution. The same changes resulted in the switch from E9x to F3x, so I still don't see the evidence that the E8x is derived from the F2x as you had said formerly.

as I mentioned, there is a lot of carryover. BMW minimized profits on the E8X because it was pretty much as expensive as the E9X to produce but they couldn't charge as much. Keeping the basics of the old platform and retooling it to be more efficient, yet upgrading certain components were the way forward. The E8X was capable of AWD but it was not seen as a production desire. Electric steering is part of the electrical reworking.

Put it this way...the F3X doesn't carry over like the F2X carried over.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

as I mentioned, there is a lot of carryover. BMW minimized profits on the E8X because it was pretty much as expensive as the E9X to produce but they couldn't charge as much. Keeping the basics of the old platform and retooling it to be more efficient, yet upgrading certain components were the way forward. The E8X was capable of AWD but it was not seen as a production desire. Electric steering is part of the electrical reworking.

Put it this way...the F3X doesn't carry over like the F2X carried over.

I think he is asking for actual evidence of this

anecdotal evidence that there are substantial changes between the two are the performance times and reviews that the European M135i has been able to generate on the new platform (despite the fact that it is hideous)

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

I think he is asking for actual evidence of this

anecdotal evidence that there are substantial changes between the two are the performance times and reviews that the European M135i has been able to generate on the new platform (despite the fact that it is hideous)

the evidence is in the conversation with people in the loop...i'm not sure how to create that evidence aside from tell you! i will keep an eye out for any concrete evidence about the E8x chassis and the F2x chassis though, as i'm sure more information will come out as this car is released in the US market.

on the flipside...where is your evidence that the M135i differs greatly from the outgoing 135i coupe in terms of performance times? The 135i was always an extremely capable car....so in terms of a 'night and day' difference it is likely not going to be there. I don't really care at all for the underwhelming 8 speed automatic...so when equipped with a manual there are no real spec differences in speed between something like a 135is and a M135i. If you put a DCT on a 135is (a much better gearbox than the ZF autobox), then you're back in the same realm as an Automatic M135i.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

on the flipside...where is your evidence that the M135i differs greatly from the outgoing 135i coupe in terms of performance times? .

per fastestlaps among other track times

135i - nordschlieife time

8:39.20

M135i - nordschleife time

8:18.00

Pretty clear that it is the quicker car. Its also 2 seconds quicker on hockenheim short.

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/bmw_m135i_f20.html

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/bmw_135i_coupe_e82.html

[Klepper1]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

per fastestlaps among other track times

135i - nordschlieife time

8:39.20

M135i - nordschleife time

8:18.00

Pretty clear that it is the quicker car. Its also 2 seconds quicker on hockenheim short.

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/bmw_m135i_f20.html

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/bmw_135i_coupe_e82.html

Did you see this comment on that site though, regarding the 135i time:

"The 8:39 northloop laptime was driven by a 135i with Perfromance package and it was a full lap by a not so skilled driver.. same driver did a 8:31 with a Cayman S (295hp)in the same test a car that was already tested with 8:11 ...most likely the 135i would be 20seconds faster with a better driver at the wheel..."

[DentalBoy]

Originally Posted by E92_SID

Just wait for the m4 otherwise you are going to regret it.. AGAIN! I'm in a similar place as you. I traded my M3 in 3 months ago for a 2014 Jeep SRT and almost immediately regretted it. I'm already on the list to get my M4 ASAP! Even though I know I'm gonna take an ugly hit on the jeep after less than a year of ownership. Oh well. It only money right...life is too short not to enjoy it to its fullest potential. And in my book, that means I need an M again!

Dang Sid! Didn't know you dumped the M3 for a jeep?? of course , I did get Christy a Range Sport.. Still shopping for the new Bimmer! Hows life brother??

[pruettfan]

I think the M235i will be an excellent car but the M4 will likely be spectacular. If price is not an issue clearly the M4 would be the way to go. The M235i is an excellent value and I think will be a pure drivers car. The M4 will be spectacular and very special. You can't make a bad choice here in my opinion but if you have your set on the M4 it would be a mistake to get anything else.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

BMW minimized profits on the E8X because it was pretty much as expensive as the E9X to produce but they couldn't charge as much.

We could assume for the sake of argument that it's true. Yet it is at least one level of indirection removed from the matter of the cars' capabilities. It is certainly possible to reduce the production costs for a product while still reengineering it for improved performance. In fact, as I said before, parts sharing with other products currently in production may be no less likely to increase cost as it is to decrease it. This is both from a process and components perspective.

as I mentioned, there is a lot of carryover... Keeping the basics of the old platform and retooling it to be more efficient, yet upgrading certain components were the way forward.

Well we're going in circles with this it appears. This sums up generational improvements for any number of real world examples with wildly varying levels of performance improvements over their predecessors between them.

Put it this way...the F3X doesn't carry over like the F2X carried over.

I think we might be able produce something tangible to support or refute this with a little research on parts sites as well as other sources, but it would be time consuming. In the meantime I am going with what I said before about the F20/F30 shared architecture and the link to SCOTTs language I posted earlier.

The E8X was capable of AWD but it was not seen as a production desire. Electric steering is part of the electrical reworking.

Sure, any chassis can accommodate AWD, but they actually build and sell an AWD F2x. That clearly required R&D, engineering, testing, not to mention changes to the manufacturing process. And electrical steering requires not just changes in the electrical system but numerous changes in the mechanics, which obviously can impact tooling as well.

It is true we can look at the M235i at the high level and estimate some level of incremental improvement over the 135is. To me, it requires more analysis to attribute the result to commonality between those two cars' platforms rather than to some of the same things that seperate the performance of an F30 335i and an E90 335i, whatever those might be.

[bm323]

Originally Posted by Eddien123

Don't count on an M2

looks like it http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=922022

[aus]

Found this on Yahoo of all places.

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/bmw-m2-l...164326487.html

They seem to get the feeling there will be a lighter M2.
I didn't realize the M235 is a little heavier than the F8x M3/M4??

That thing's a porker, but if it's making 375hp and weighs 3,300 lbs, that would be REALLY interesting since it'll probably have the F8x M3/M4 suspension arms and fixed caliper steel brakes.
I'm willing to bet someone will be able to get the full power out of the S55 wtih a tune eventually, maybe even a little more. Similar to the AMG C63 or was it the C55??

If it does have the F8x M3/M4 suspension and a detuned engine and one doesn't need all the lux in the F8x, I'd say this is pretty tempting.

.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by shaz1410

Hi guys long time lurker. Bit of background my last car was a manual Audi s5 was meant to be an m3 but changed my mind because I felt the m3 interior didn't live up to the price tag. Loved the Audi but always regretted not getting the m3 especially after borrowing my cousins m3 for a week. Decided to grow up and bought diesel auto evoque and straight away I realised I don't care one ounce for practicality or economy I just want a fun fast car that can make me smile. So now my dilemma is order a 235 for march delivery for a decent price or hold hire for the m4 with no chance of any deal and wait till late next year for delivery, I don't think I can live with this evoque much longer and I know if I hold fire on the m4 then in a couple of years it will be a bit more affordable, so what I'm asking is how you guys feel on the 235?? Any feedback is welcome

Hi Shaz, well a nice dilemma to have mate! I feel very similar to yourself, and the M2 renders have not helped, that car looks perfect to me. I have a feeling I'm going to go for the M235i manual for now and try it on 2.5 years PCP deal. Then could pick up the M2 if it exists or see what deals are around on the M4. No doubt M3/4 superior interior and vastly superior performance....but how much of that is accessible on a daily drive (mine will be DD car and fun car in one) and for at least £20k less. Still not sure though, currently getting my deposit back from Porsche on a Macan...what was I thinking, similar to the Evoque...too soon for pipe and slippers

Good luck.

[hwelvaar]

Originally Posted by paddy335

If you are keen on the compact 235i, why not wait a bit longer and get the M2.

Or, get a 1M.

M2: 2 years ahead. And how good will it be ?

1M: not on sale

[paddy335]

Originally Posted by hwelvaar

M2: 2 years ahead. And how good will it be ?

1M: not on sale

M2: CLA45 AMG and RS3-beating good. Lighter too.

Sorry I should have said a used 1M. Or even better for similar money, a used CSL.

[Chill72]

Well it turns out that M235 is heavy and soft (it should really be called 235). I thought that car would weight 3200 lbs at most...what's the point of smaller car if it almost weighs the same as M4.

Bottom line, wait for M4.

[shaz1410]

Originally Posted by ChesterX5

Hi Shaz, well a nice dilemma to have mate! I feel very similar to yourself, and the M2 renders have not helped, that car looks perfect to me. I have a feeling I'm going to go for the M235i manual for now and try it on 2.5 years PCP deal. Then could pick up the M2 if it exists or see what deals are around on the M4. No doubt M3/4 superior interior and vastly superior performance....but how much of that is accessible on a daily drive (mine will be DD car and fun car in one) and for at least £20k less. Still not sure though, currently getting my deposit back from Porsche on a Macan...what was I thinking, similar to the Evoque...too soon for pipe and slippers

Good luck.

Chester have you had any quotes on the 235?

[SW19]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

the evidence is in the conversation with people in the loop...i'm not sure how to create that evidence aside from tell you! i will keep an eye out for any concrete evidence about the E8x chassis and the F2x chassis though, as i'm sure more information will come out as this car is released in the US market.

on the flipside...where is your evidence that the M135i differs greatly from the outgoing 135i coupe in terms of performance times? The 135i was always an extremely capable car....so in terms of a 'night and day' difference it is likely not going to be there. I don't really care at all for the underwhelming 8 speed automatic...so when equipped with a manual there are no real spec differences in speed between something like a 135is and a M135i. If you put a DCT on a 135is (a much better gearbox than the ZF autobox), then you're back in the same realm as an Automatic M135i.

Who are your people in the loop?