[parabola]

BMW M3 Quattro, 2.0T

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Alpine F31

Totally agree but this is never going to happen. All of us that agree with you will be the guys restoring E30's, E36's and E46's because those are the cars we really pine for, only in a modern package. Those cars are not coming from BMW. The M235i is the closest thing, and it's not really that close.

You know, I've been really thinking about a E30 M3 build lately. Drop a S54 w/ paired 6MT into it, add interior from E9X/E82. Might be my perfect car. Only downside would be the maintenance required on the S54. Maybe a DISA N52 would be a better bet.

[F32Fleet]

No big deal. Half the M3/4 guys can't handle the HP/TQ in the RWD platform and they whine.

[M3 n X5M]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Its funny to hear people whine about not having AWD in something like M cars but then the big wigs mention the possibility and its met with mostly negativity.

Some of the AWD nutswingers ONLY talk about launching and bad weather conditions on why its better the RWD. Ok, thats great but RWD cars still handle better and are easier to control when pushed to their limits, just for starters.

How many AWD race vehicles do you see? Exactly, because thats too much extra weight and rotation mass and harder to control. RWD cars CAN handle the extra power as long as you have a proper tire for it.

Both have their cons and pros but neither one is "superior" than the other. But the whole I can drive my 1000whp Lambo in the snow! Means jack to me because someone else is driving their 1000rwhp CTS-V to work in the snow too.

Besides, are you trying to race someone in those adverse conditions just to "prove" how better AWD might be while looking like a douche when you crash?

I agree with all of what you state here. Folks need to think really carefully about the implications of AWD on driving dynamics in the dry, wet and snow. Also, the weight implications when further increasing weight by 250 or 300 lbs.

I alternate driving of my E90 M3 and X5M during the week. One is RWD and ~3500lbs, while the other is AWD and ~5300lbs. Big difference!!! The X5M is fantastic to be assault-like through traffic, and rainy conditions. The other is nimble, stealth and drives like a joy every time. There is no comparison in the extremes of weather and speed. The AWD holds its own in snow and rain, as it should. The RWD is so alive in the dry and at very high corner speeds, or braking hard.

The new M5 and M6 will be luxury competitors to the largest AMG sedan that is also AWD... and they will drive similarly from the standpoint of unbelievable power, torque and traction. But the dynamics will have to give up a lot.

Frankly, it is more work to drive the X5M than the M3. It just feels more draining and less entertaining. The M5 and M6 will be lighter than my X5M by at least 900 lbs... but the effect should be somewhere between my E90 and the X5M.

These are my thoughts... and let us not mention tracking etc. On that subject, we can only speculate what these future AWD M5 and M6 cars will do.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by earlfocht

As a former 1M owner and current F10 M5 owner, AWD would be a welcome improvement.

I really enjoy xDrive, which apparently is a rare opinion in this thread. If the 550 xDrive were available with a manual or DCT, I'd have gotten it instead. (It's a shame the M5 also doesn't have ceramic-control or radar-cruise options.)

AWD didn't make a lot of sense on the previous-gen naturally-aspirated M cars, but the new turbos bring so much torque so quickly at the low end, most of which can't be used off the line and at at low speeds without breaking out the rear end or being cut by DTC.

It's hard to fully enjoy or use the power of the current M5 day-to-day because it has so much more power than traction. I see little reason to add even more power in the next-gen one without adding AWD —*most M5 customers, most of the time, wouldn't see any usable gain.

Sure, AWD isn't as good for purists or track use. But most M5 owners, most of the time, aren't on tracks, and as purists go, the M5 is too big and heavy anyway (and likely to remain so, even with weight-saving measures in the G series).

BMW M's recent statements have been pretty clear: RWD purists and track drivers should be looking at the M3/4, which will remain a purist's car. The M5/6 will not be afraid to serve the *actual* market demand for $100K+ super-sport executive sedans, most of which will never see a track, and whose current buyers usually demand AWD and are often buying another brand to get it.

I agree with you 100%. Good to hear from someone who, you know, actually owns one. Most of the people complaining drive 328i's and 128i's and are merely complaining because they think M cars should be just carbon copies of what they were 10 years ago they don't actually own a current M car, it's why they do what they do and the engineers over at BMW M do what they do.

Mercedes AMG did the same thing with their cars a few years back. Adding twin turbo V8's made them much more difficult to control so they began making their AMG cars AWD (the larger ones anyway).

From reading the interview, seems like he's saying the M2, M3 and M4 will be more "traditional" M cars and will remain RWD while the others will simply be too powerful and will need AWD to make them more manageable. I don't see anything wrong with that line of thinking. If they were going to go back to high revving NA engines then I'd think that was a foolish idea, they probably would too. Sadly due to more stringent emission requirements, high revving NA engines are going the wayside but I don't fault manufacturers for that.

Face it, that's where the performance market is headed with the larger luxury cars. Fast capable cruisers while the smaller performance cars are geared more towards track duty while still being capable of being driven everyday.

M decided to become more mainstream the second they decided to make M variants of their SUVs. I don't really care that they did that. Range Rover Sports and Porsche Cayenne's make hand over foot in money and sales (yeah you read that, Porsche, the brand everyone on here convinces themselves is the only "true" performance brand and that BMW sells out, makes an SUV...two of them in fact as well as a sedan). They'd be dumb not to try to get a slice of that pie. They have the resources, brand recognition and engineering know how so why not?

But what do I know? They should just go back to doing what they did 10 years ago and never change, that'll surely work out for them in the long run.

Hell even Cadillac admitted that their beastly new CTS-V will be more geared towards highway cruising and bruising performance. Track oriented buyers, they said, would be better off looking at the upcoming ATS-V. Just seems to be what the market is moving towards. Since everyone is doing it, it seems that's what people want.

[doug_999]

Casual observation here guys - many of you make it sound like the M series cars are these lightweight racing machines. They are not, especially the M5/M6/M6GC - they are luxury touring cars that weigh more than two tons. Audi manages to make the the RS7 weigh a whopping 30lbs more than the M6GC and they of course have AWD. It can be done and it can be done well.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by doug_999

Casual observation here guys - many of you make it sound like the M series cars are these lightweight racing machines. They are not, especially the M5/M6/M6GC - they are luxury touring cars that weigh more than two tons. Audi manages to make the the RS7 weigh a whopping 30lbs more than the M6GC and they of course have AWD. It can be done and it can be done well.

You missed the point. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Its funny to hear people whine about not having AWD in something like M cars but then the big wigs mention the possibility and its met with mostly negativity.

Some of the AWD nutswingers ONLY talk about launching and bad weather conditions on why its better the RWD. Ok, thats great but RWD cars still handle better and are easier to control when pushed to their limits, just for starters.

How many AWD race vehicles do you see? Exactly, because thats too much extra weight and rotation mass and harder to control. RWD cars CAN handle the extra power as long as you have a proper tire for it.

Both have their cons and pros but neither one is "superior" than the other. But the whole I can drive my 1000whp Lambo in the snow! Means jack to me because someone else is driving their 1000rwhp CTS-V to work in the snow too.

Besides, are you trying to race someone in those adverse conditions just to "prove" how better AWD might be while looking like a douche when you crash?

This.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

You missed the point. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

No, I think you might have missed the point. That being, you don't need/want to put AWD on a car until you must. And you must when the car has too much power for two wheels.

From R&T
"The M3 is the only car to actually scare me at the Motown Mile. Going around the fast final turn, the torque spikes and sends me into a long, lazy, 100-mph slide that I don't recover until well down the front straight. Forget this being a German Trans Am; it's a German Corvette. "This car is nightmarish to control under power," concurs Cammisa. "It's so much work, and there's no joy to be had as a result." Having driven the M3 before, on a larger track, I suggest that it needs a bigger venue to shine. Cammisa agrees."
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...r-of-the-year/

or the summary
http://labmw.com/2015-road-track-per...ts-for-f80-m3/

or heck, just ask Spy...

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by doug_999

No, I think you might have missed the point. That being, you don't need/want to put AWD on a car until you must. And you must when the car has too much power for two wheels.

Impossible for me to miss my own point.

BUT..

Go ahead, get your panties in a twist over it.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Go ahead, get your panties in a twist over it.

That might be the definition of torque and thus the reason for AWD!

[R_lara]

Awd is for mud. X5 M X6 M Now make an x3 M its all good, but dont let this guy touch the cars.

[R_lara]

Originally Posted by doug_999

No, I think you might have missed the point. That being, you don't need/want to put AWD on a car until you must. And you must when the car has too much power for two wheels.

From R&T
"The M3 is the only car to actually scare me at the Motown Mile. Going around the fast final turn, the torque spikes and sends me into a long, lazy, 100-mph slide that I don't recover until well down the front straight. Forget this being a German Trans Am; it's a German Corvette. "This car is nightmarish to control under power," concurs Cammisa. "It's so much work, and there's no joy to be had as a result." Having driven the M3 before, on a larger track, I suggest that it needs a bigger venue to shine. Cammisa agrees."
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...r-of-the-year/

or the summary
http://labmw.com/2015-road-track-per...ts-for-f80-m3/

or heck, just ask Spy...

Scary fast is Fun, hey it scares you just dont play with it or get a 335 xdrive. Yes man that wil do it for you.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by R_lara

Scary fast is Fun, hey it scares you just dont play with it or get a 335 xdrive. Yes man that wil do it for you.

Or go back to an NA engine. The mass amounts of torque comes on too early in a FI application. Although I'd argue you can still handle it in an M3, but once you get upwards of 600+ HP and torque, it's too much.

[R_lara]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Or go back to an NA engine. The mass amounts of torque comes on too early in a FI application. Although I'd argue you can still handle it in an M3, but once you get upwards of 600+ HP and torque, it's too much.

Sorry I don't agree with anyone here that see that ///M cars beeing all wheel drive is a good thing, I do live in the Caribbean (no snow) I do get all year round ///M use but to be honest if you can't drive or can't behave in public places because you do know where and when u can use you lead foot. I Just hope it does not happen.

I will be I Hockenheim in May for the inauguration of the DTM season so I will try to catch up with this fellow and try to talk him out of this CRAZY idea.

I recommend to everyone here on the AWD team to wach the documentary called "Adrenalin the BMW touring car story" and after that cream pie of BMW racing history let me know if you still want AWD ///M cars.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by R_lara

Sorry I don't agree with anyone here that see that ///M cars beeing all wheel drive is a good thing, I do live in the Caribbean (no snow) I do get all year round ///M use but to be honest if you can't drive or can't behave in public places because you do know where and when u can use you lead foot. I Just hope it does not happen.

I will be I Hockenheim in May for the inauguration of the DTM season so I will try to catch up with this fellow and try to talk him out of this CRAZY idea.

I recommend to everyone here on the AWD team to wach the documentary called "Adrenalin the BMW touring car story" and after that cream pie of BMW racing history let me know if you still want AWD ///M cars.

Yeah...if it has 600+ HP and torque, I'd still rather it be AWD, I'd prefer to drive for pleasure, not for fear of that if I make a mistake it'll wrap me around a tree. At that power output level, that becomes tricky on a RWD car. No idea what the point would be to watch that documentary, it's absolutely and completely irrelevant. Unless it has heavy land yachts with twin turbo V8's pushing 600+ HP and RWD only.

Not that it matters, I'd never buy an M5 or M6 anyway, which are the only ones going AWD. AWD would be silly on an M3/M4, even at it's high power output. They're just too big of a car for my preference.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by R_lara

Scary fast is Fun, hey it scares you just dont play with it or get a 335 xdrive. Yes man that wil do it for you.

I didn't write that it was scary - R&T did. I merely pointed out that when you start to get that much HP & Torque, you need AWD to get the power to the ground.

PS - you do sound a bit like the guy who curb jumped his M3. He had several posts along those lines about scary fast being fun

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by bcl0328

why is everyone so against AWD?

Some people still actually enjoy driving......


I'd counter, with the question why do so many people 'think' they 'need' awd...

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

Some people still actually enjoy driving......

I'd counter, with the question why do so many people 'think' they 'need' awd...

I would counter with "how many AWD haters have actually have had it?" I know I was dead set against it -until I got a vehicle with it. Now I'm really struggling with going back to 2WD.

[DCG]

Originally Posted by R_lara

Sorry I don't agree with anyone here that see that ///M cars beeing all wheel drive is a good thing, I do live in the Caribbean (no snow) I do get all year round ///M use but to be honest if you can't drive or can't behave in public places because you do know where and when u can use you lead foot. I Just hope it does not happen.

Dude the Caribbean witch I totally love, but try living in New York State or the tri-state area or North East for that matter. On Long Island alone last year Winter 2013/2014 we had 23 snow storms. I know it is nice to where flip-flops all year round, but come on, really.

This weekend here in the mornings we have lots of black-ice, mad accidents and it is 52 degrees out at sea level. Any bit of traction adds up. Our rides are not just weekend toys they are every day drivers. And as of the past years we have had more and more erratic weather to contend with.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by doug_999

I would counter with "how many AWD haters have actually have had it?"

I don't think you need to have had it.......

However, I had a mildly tuned Audi Quattro for 2 weeks about 20 years ago........and got shot of it quickly, as it was just a stupid car for the road......it just gave you a false sense of security, whereby you just 'thought' you were a better driver than you were, and when it was going to go horribly wrong (as it would have eventually) it was going to be a VERY high speed ending......

Not for me.

My next door neighbour has a Audi RS3 and drives it like a dangerous lunatic, because, in his words, 'It's four wheel drive innit, so I can drive faster and not crash"

Muppet.


This is the only reason for needing awd

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

I don't think you need to have had it.......

However, I had a mildly tuned Audi Quattro for 2 weeks about 20 years ago........and got shot of it quickly, as it was just a stupid car for the road......it just gave you a false sense of security, whereby you just 'thought' you were a better driver than you were, and when it was going to go horribly wrong (as it would have eventually) it was going to be a VERY high speed ending......

Not for me.

My next door neighbour has a Audi RS3 and drives it like a dangerous lunatic, because, in his words, 'It's four wheel drive innit, so I can drive faster and not crash"

Muppet.


This is the only reason for needing awd

I'm sorry, but this is one of the worst arguments against AWD that I can imagine. Basically, it boils down to: "AWD makes the road holding so competent that you'll be tempted to drive like a hoon." That's like blaming the gun for shooting deaths (which plenty of people do, I guess). I just can't get on board for that.

IMO, the arguments for/against AWD all come down to what you want out of the car. AWD is unquestionably an advantage as HP increases with respect to road holding capabilities. If your goal is to go-fast around a track, look no further than the Nissan GTR to prove how effective AWD can be. However, if you are more focused on the *experience* of going around a track (slow or fast), then RWD is what you want.

The argument that you "don't need AWD because it's too fast for the road" is a dangerous line of reasoning, because it requires a value judgement to be made. You draw the line at a modified AWD Audi, but what happens when someone else draws the line at a V6 Maxima? I'm not even willing to enter in to that debate.

Having said that, I'm a little disappointed at where the 5 and 6-series M-cars have ended up. The mere fact that they need AWD to remain competitive speaks volumes about what the cars have become. I'm not sure that's a problem anyone can solve though. You can't very well make the 5-series an E28 again. So if the 5er keeps headed down the path its on, I don't see how BMW can avoid going AWD. My solution is to never own an M5