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      01-13-2021, 01:58 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
From the article -

the team let the Australian know that his car's newly-developed front wing will go to his teammate Sebastian Vettel for the weekend, which brought the Aussie's frustrations to a high sky level.

They gave the best wing to the driver leading the driver standings. Not even close to the idea that they purposely sabotage one drivers car so he will fail.
His frustration came from the fact that he had the wing first and it was decided after the fact to remove it from his car and place on VETs. And yes, VET was leading the championship but still crappy to take it from WEB and give it to VET.

And we won't even bring up Multi-21. They plainly favored VET at the expense of WEB. This is Red Bull and what they do to their 2nd drivers. Not even a whiff of fairness. This is why I'm quite interested to see Checo in the team. I suspect that fireworks will erupt very soon.
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      01-13-2021, 01:59 PM   #46
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^^ It was like a scene from keystone cops running around but with tyres,George and Bot must have thought -'don't bring me down'...
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      01-13-2021, 02:34 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
This is why I'm quite interested to see Checo in the team. I suspect that fireworks will erupt very soon.
I hope Perez gets a fair go.
In any case...He is less likely to put up with any nonsense from Red Bull than a lot of other drivers.
its the dodgy calls to box that he has to watch out for.
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      01-13-2021, 02:49 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
His frustration came from the fact that he had the wing first and it was decided after the fact to remove it from his car and place on VETs. And yes, VET was leading the championship but still crappy to take it from WEB and give it to VET.

And we won't even bring up Multi-21. They plainly favored VET at the expense of WEB. This is Red Bull and what they do to their 2nd drivers. Not even a whiff of fairness. This is why I'm quite interested to see Checo in the team. I suspect that fireworks will erupt very soon.
From a team perspective, I can see why tho. Reality is results pay the bills, so giving the front runner more advantage at the pole for overall team notoriety makes sense. It sucks for individual drivers, but reality is the team's glory is what's important. The drivers' need to be appeased because they help bring that reality to fruition and a consistent car and driver should create more consistent results (if they are both worth their salt).
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      01-13-2021, 03:48 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewater328 View Post
From a team perspective, I can see why tho. Reality is results pay the bills, so giving the front runner more advantage at the pole for overall team notoriety makes sense. It sucks for individual drivers, but reality is the team's glory is what's important. The drivers' need to be appeased because they help bring that reality to fruition and a consistent car and driver should create more consistent results (if they are both worth their salt).
Agree, if you are the star quarterback that isn't performing or maybe there is a better option and get benched as the team feels it gives them the best chance to win it sucks for you. Coach and team have a different goal than your individual goals.
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Last edited by David70; 01-13-2021 at 03:59 PM..
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      01-13-2021, 04:03 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Agree, if you are the star quarterback that isn't performing or maybe there is a better option and get benched as the team feels it gives them the best chance to win it sucks for you. Coach and team have a different goal than your individual goals.
To win? Possibly to play the best?


I don’t think the coach and team should have different goals. Success will be at its height when both are aligned and it’s measurable.

I believe a coach may have a different idea about HOW to achieve this result, but everyone should have the same end game in mind.
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      01-13-2021, 06:00 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiveohwblow View Post
To win? Possibly to play the best?


I don’t think the coach and team should have different goals. Success will be at its height when both are aligned and it’s measurable.

I believe a coach may have a different idea about HOW to achieve this result, but everyone should have the same end game in mind.
Easy to say, but coach sets the terms. It's the drivers that need/want the individual glory. Driver wants to win not only for their own ego, but to keep their foot in the 20-person room. Driver glory was at the heart of Max and Rico mash up and that's where principals lose their mind. Not everyone can be Bottas :P
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      01-14-2021, 03:15 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
I hope Perez gets a fair go.
In any case...He is less likely to put up with any nonsense from Red Bull than a lot of other drivers.
its the dodgy calls to box that he has to watch out for.
Thanks for starting this thread, it has triggered some fun debate, like others I cannot wait to see the RBR dynamics in 2021. A serious question.. do you genuinely think RBR are pulling nonsense with drivers (and yes I think the “joint blame“ stunt with Daniel was a factor in him leaving)?
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      01-14-2021, 04:46 AM   #53
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A serious question.. do you genuinely think RBR are pulling nonsense with drivers?
As I noted earlier
it seems like Red Bull have been trying to emulate (in part) the successful Schumacher Ferrari years.
The key element of which was focussing all their energy and resources on their #1 driver while (in Ferraris case) their #2 drivers actually did get screwed.

The principle target for Red Bull's F1 program is not exactly the same as Ferraris but rather to generate maximum media coverage.
As part of that, Red Bull have tried to create a narrative where Verstappen is the best driver in F1 (who would beat Hamilton in the same car) and "destroys" his team mates.
Its interesting that Red Bull/Verstappen are now trying to rewrite history to suit the narrative, claiming that Verstappen beat Ricciardo (in the end) when that is clearly not the case.

The excuse for not winning championships is because Mercedes have this massive performance advantage.
Dropping in the occasional suggestion that the Merc car is maybe not completely legal..the Dutch fans love that.

Prize money and position/points in the constructors championship while not incidental are not primary goals.

So back to the question...do [I] genuinely think RBR are pulling nonsense with drivers?
Sometimes they have...certainly in the past.
With Albon (hired under pressure from the Thai shareholders), at best they were just indifferent to his success. He was useful for testing parts and for playing his role in making Verstappen look good otherwise that was about it.
At worst, giving Albon a (sub optimal) contrary set up to Verstappen at nearly every race was a conscious strategy...maybe Red Bull didn't take well to having shareholders pick their drivers for them.

The next season with Perez should be interesting...with everything equal I don't think there should be that much between them...but I doubt it will play out like that.

Last edited by SenorFunkyPants; 01-14-2021 at 08:55 AM..
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      01-14-2021, 09:23 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiveohwblow View Post
To win? Possibly to play the best?


I don’t think the coach and team should have different goals. Success will be at its height when both are aligned and it’s measurable.

I believe a coach may have a different idea about HOW to achieve this result, but everyone should have the same end game in mind.

"Coach and team have a different goal than your individual goals." - the two of them may have different goals than your personal goals.

While everyone says the main goal is for the team to win, I think reality is almost no one would pull themselves from the game to make this happen. If you offered Bottas a way to win every race next year but MB would come in 2nd in the constructors points he would immediately take it but Toto would not.

In the RB example above the team wanted to win the constructors championship, next was to win the drivers championship and the best way to accomplish this goal was to take Webbers wing and put it on Vettel's car. Based on the teams goals Webber should have been happy to contribute but he was very irritated.
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      01-14-2021, 09:37 AM   #55
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I think I’m well aware of what should be and what happens. I was merely suggesting that when those two align it should be consistent. It should also be the expectation and what a good leader will ensure occurs. Weak leaders cannot provide what is necessary to complete this correlation between individual contributions and team contributions and the alignment of such.

The strong ones have, and those are the ones with a history of winning and not a fluke.
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