[stefan]

Originally Posted by Zippster

Are you saying that the batteries cannot be recycled? There is just a small amount of Lithium but there are other metals more valuable that factor into the recycling of the Li-ion batteries. It's an economic problem not chemistry, were you paying attention?

Such as? Feel free to point me in the direction or large battery manufactures who are currently recycling. Last I checked it makes zero sense to recycle lithion batteries when mining it or brine extraction is so cheap.. That's even if it did make sense from a potential energy standpoint.

[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by stefan

Such as? Feel free to point me in the direction or large battery manufactures who are currently recycling. Last I checked it makes zero sense to recycle lithion batteries when mining it or brine extraction is so cheap.. That's even if it did make sense from a potential energy standpoint.

Do a Google search for "Recycle lithium ion batteries in (your town)." You'll probably get a list of local businesses, waste management services and even city/town/county offices that accept all sorts of rechageable AA, AAA and mobile device lithium-ion batteries - except ones used in cars. The only choice for those is OEM dealers in my area.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

A car is a tool and it's all about matching the right tool to the job. My wife drives a Nissan Leaf and we both love it. It beats the snot out of my M2 in several areas:

- It's nearly silent
- It has a plush, comfortable, ride
- Superb in bumper to bumper traffic which is 99% of the time on Seattle roads
- it hauls significantly more cargo
- I dont worry about where I park it, door dings, if someone is going to steal it
- Our dogs can track dirt and hair inside and I don't have to spend hours detailing it
- In 30,000 miles it's cost us $0 in repairs and $14 in maintenance (cabin air filter)
- Saving over $100/month in gas
- Our aging parents can get in and out of the back seat
- it's awesome in the snow without having to invest in dedicated specialty tires and rims

Would I trade my M2 for the Leaf? Not on your life. But then again, I wouldn't trade my skis for a bicycle, or my tablesaw for a drillpress, or my rock climbing shoes for running shoes. Different tools for different jobs, people.

This is my thinking as well. Electric cars today, while not great performance wise, should make great beaters. A 10-year battery life today with replacement costs by that time being much lower and with significantly improved energy density. In the future, they should surpass ability of any ICE in any area and will probably supplant most ICE on the road in the next 20 years.

BMW is smart to invest heavily in the tech, although the i3 is just an awkward looking platform - presumably done on purpose for product positioning reasons. They would have sold 10x more with better styling alone...

[STK]

Originally Posted by heart_doctor

Well, I took my 2017 BMW m2 with 1700 miles on it to my favorite detail shop and they gave me a BMW i3 as a loaner. All I have to say is if this is the future of the automotive industry im keeping my m2 for the next 50 years. I know it was an i3 and not a "high performance" EV but it's absolutely awful ...

What I don't understand is how a company like tesla which sells only 80,000 cars per year, has some quality issues, looses hundreds of million dollars a year has a market cap bigger than GM and Ford motor company.

I personally never see EV's as more than a niche product for tree huggers who are fooling themselves as they plug their cars into outlets supplied by coal burning power plants. Oil is cheap and plentiful and evs are expensive to build and do absolutely nothing for the environment.

Give me and ICE any day of the week over an electric car .... even a tesla.

What do people think?

If you live in or very near a city you probably won't own a car in 15 years or you'll keep one around for track or city to city road trips. An autonomous electric car will pick you up and drop you off. Traffic will be coordinated and much faster. It'll be safer. They'll be laws about driving in or near the city that become more restrictive over time to the point where they won't let you drive first in city center, then city limits, then close burbs. It will be cheaper unless they allow monopolies. The vast majority of people will be happy- faster commutes, working or goofing off during commutes, less stress. Unlike public transport, it will be door to door. You can pay extra to have the car to yourself or less if it picks up others along the way. So have fun the next 10-15 years. Buy a space at the teach country club and really drive on the weekends when driving becomes a hobby just for enthusiasts. That's what happened to horses.

[M+M]

Originally Posted by Dee Pee

Well here's an interesting read about EV. I loved my i3 loaner bc I live in a city. What I didn't like was the lack of charging options.
http://www.nov79.com/elvp.html
IMO Tesla is a Ponzi that will collapse soon. The real potential value is in its battery and autonomous driving tech. I can see those divisions being bought out in a bankruptcy if their competitors don't surpass them outright (they will). Tesla thinks the Model 3 (which isn't even in beta yet) will scale up to 500,000 units and outsell every comparable car in its class--not gonna happen. It takes them a year to sell just as many cars that any one of the Big Five does in a couple of weeks.

In the end I do think folks who like manual transmissions, internal combustion engines, and full driving control at all times--the types who refuse to cede any control to an invisible hand (be it government, technological, or social)--will be anachronisms. Personally I can live with that.

I am much more worried about autonomous drive than battery tech because the best benefits of automomous cannot be achieved unless there is widespread or near complete adoption. Say reducing congestion in cities and increasing safety. Can't have a few renegades running around trying to drive their own cars and endangering the masses.

So forget about no manual transmission - may not be able to drive your own car in some places. GRRR...the rest I may be able to live with - by just keeping the old cars that will be classics/ dinosaurs - but not being banned!

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

BMW is smart to invest heavily in the tech, although the i3 is just an awkward looking platform - presumably done on purpose for product positioning reasons. They would have sold 10x more with better styling alone...

Being a Leaf driver, I'm not one to pass judgement on styling.

I actually think the i3 looks better than the Leaf, but at the end of the day it's kind of like debating Roseanne Bar vs. Rosie O'Donnell.

[STK]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

Being a Leaf driver, I'm not one to pass judgement on styling.

I actually think the i3 looks better than the Leaf, but at the end of the day it's kind of like debating Roseanne Bar vs. Rosie O'Donnell.

Here's Edmund's take - By 2030, 95% of miles will be in autonomous cars.
https://apple.news/AtTgMAX47MQG01mL1EARiQg

[akkando]

Originally Posted by heart_doctor

Well, I took my 2017 BMW m2 with 1700 miles on it to my favorite detail shop and they gave me a BMW i3 as a loaner. All I have to say is if this is the future of the automotive industry im keeping my m2 for the next 50 years. I know it was an i3 and not a "high performance" EV but it's absolutely awful ...

What I don't understand is how a company like tesla which sells only 80,000 cars per year, has some quality issues, looses hundreds of million dollars a year has a market cap bigger than GM and Ford motor company.

I personally never see EV's as more than a niche product for tree huggers who are fooling themselves as they plug their cars into outlets supplied by coal burning power plants. Oil is cheap and plentiful and evs are expensive to build and do absolutely nothing for the environment.

Give me and ICE any day of the week over an electric car .... even a tesla.

What do people think?

Tesla is priced high partially because they make a great electric vehicle, they are committed to keep advancing the technology, and the price reflects future potential, but the price is also driven by hype. When people notice shares rising quickly in value people just buy it trying to make an easy buck before a correction.

You don't personally see EVs being more than a niche product? To me it's obvious it's going to be mainstream barring some extreme event that stops humans from progressing (nuclear war etc). I find it very difficult to understand why this is not obvious to other people, but it makes it very very easy for me to make a lot of money. I mean to be fair a lot of hybrid and electric cars look like garbage on purpose as Zenmaster pointed out because the car companies were not motivated to disrupt their own industry, and they assumed people in the market for an EV preferred a vehicle styling that made it clear to everyone else that they hated cars. Now here comes Tesla honestly trying to make a great vehicle not just have a test bed for new tech.

Remember when most people thought buying things on the internet was ridiculous?

Remember when the iphone came out and people thought it was stupid to have a phone without physical buttons and no one saw a market for apps?

Remember when Netflix was a company that sent out DVDs in the mail and streaming seemed like a stupid destined to fail side business?

So much of the future seems so easy to see for me, but most people lack any vision or imagination. They don't ever see potential or value in something until the product has become perfect then they use it every single day. They go from "who would want to sit in front a of a stupid computer everyday" to "this asshole on the internet forum of my choice has such stupid arguments! I'll show them!! "

Suddenly they develop amnesia and forget when they said "oh, that will never be anything, niche at best"


Anyway, EVs are not going to take fun away from you, but cars that drive themselves will.

[Spa2k]

Reminds me of Popular Mechanics from the early '60s that said we'd all be driving flying cars by the year 2000 ... or the great oil crisis of 1974 that said we only have 20 years of oil left.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

Reminds me of Popular Mechanics from the early '60s that said we'd all be driving flying cars by the year 2000 ... or the great oil crisis of 1974 that said we only have 20 years of oil left.

Except that EVs already exist and billions are being spent on improving the tech.

[WAY]

I don't know why car enthusiasts would hate EV other than exhaust note. For me, throttle response is one of the most important aspect of driving enjoyment, and my i3 has better throttle response than any GT3 I've owned.

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

Reminds me of Popular Mechanics from the early '60s that said we'd all be driving flying cars by the year 2000 ... or the great oil crisis of 1974 that said we only have 20 years of oil left.

That's possibly the worst comparison ever.

I really don't know why so many feel threatened by EVs. Mostly elderly gentlemen 55+ years old. I get so many angry looks from these when I drive my i3. It's almost funny.

For me the EV is superior as a DD, especially in the city. It's cheap to run and you basically have instant access to all the power. You sit high, almost like in a SUV, and have excellent overview. The turn radius is amazingly small so you can turn on a dime. The steering is direct and the car changes direction instantly. The centre of gravity is low and it's actually quite fun to drive around town.

Also you can make a fool out of many sports cars at red lights.

The i3 has many drawbacks but as long as you use it like BMW envisioned it's superb.

[johnnydad]

Originally Posted by WAY

I don't know why car enthusiasts would hate EV other than exhaust note. For me, throttle response is one of the most important aspect of driving enjoyment, and my i3 has better throttle response than any GT3 I've owned.

Agree - love the silent push, love the regenerative braking and the extra level of control it gives. But then I love the styling and the interior. Seriously considered a range-extender version for our second car but cost and lack of rapid charge infrastructure here in AUS limits practicality at times.

Must say the Tesla P90D was pretty exciting to drive but the range certainly drops when driven hard.

[WAY]

Originally Posted by Verdi

That's possibly the worst comparison ever.

I really don't know why so many feel threatened by EVs. Mostly elderly gentlemen 55+ years old. I get so many angry looks from these when I drive my i3. It's almost funny.

For me the EV is superior as a DD, especially in the city. It's cheap to run and you basically have instant access to all the power. You sit high, almost like in a SUV, and have excellent overview. The turn radius is amazingly small so you can turn on a dime. The steering is direct and the car changes direction instantly. The centre of gravity is low and it's actually quite fun to drive around town.
.

Yeah I also live in the city and the i3 is the best car for me. That's why I take it over all my other cars around town every day!

[WAY]

Originally Posted by johnnydad

Agree - love the silent push, love the regenerative braking and the extra level of control it gives. But then I love the styling and the interior. Seriously considered a range-extender version for our second car but cost and lack of rapid charge infrastructure here in AUS limits practicality at times.

Must say the Tesla P90D was pretty exciting to drive but the range certainly drops when driven hard.

Yes we could do with better charging infrastructure in this country!

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by WAY

Yes we could do with better charging infrastructure in this country!

It really depends on how you use your i3. I have never charged my i3 outside my home and my workplace. I don't even have a public charge cable. (should get one, I know)

[Zippster]

Originally Posted by STK

If you live in or very near a city you probably won't own a car in 15 years or you'll keep one around for track or city to city road trips. An autonomous electric car will pick you up and drop you off. Traffic will be coordinated and much faster. It'll be safer. They'll be laws about driving in or near the city that become more restrictive over time to the point where they won't let you drive first in city center, then city limits, then close burbs. It will be cheaper unless they allow monopolies. The vast majority of people will be happy- faster commutes, working or goofing off during commutes, less stress. Unlike public transport, it will be door to door. You can pay extra to have the car to yourself or less if it picks up others along the way. So have fun the next 10-15 years. Buy a space at the teach country club and really drive on the weekends when driving becomes a hobby just for enthusiasts. That's what happened to horses.

Not sure it will happen that soon, but I agree it will most likely happen - in large cities. There are way too many IC cars out there for the EV to overcome. The Government would have to apply a very high tax on Gas and other such means that allow the IC to continue to be driven, but make it very uneconomical. We bought these cars legitimately so they can't really make them unlawful to use. At some point you might not be able to buy a new car that is not EV.

[STK]

Originally Posted by Zippster

Not sure it will happen that soon, but I agree it will most likely happen - in large cities. There are way too many IC cars out there for the EV to overcome. The Government would have to apply a very high tax on Gas and other such means that allow the IC to continue to be driven, but make it very uneconomical. We bought these cars legitimately so they can't really make them unlawful to use. At some point you might not be able to buy a new car that is not EV.

It really depends on what happens to costs. Of it's cheaper per mile to ride autonomous than even people w/ICE cars will leave them at home. (Sunken cost.) That includes the per mile cost of the car, upkeep, electricity, and insurance. As Buffet pointed out the other day, insurance costs would plummet driving down ride costs.

And to the extent that autonomous cars are really safe, anyone causing an accident in a regular car, especially fatal, will be pilloried. Right now on the US, about 35K die in car crashes a year. If most fatal accidents are due to regular cars, there will be a big public outcry to eliminate them. Just like w/metro systems, there will be parking lots on the outskirts of the city where you drop your ICE car and are forced to switch to autonomous.

As for the pollution, there is a breakeven point. It takes a lot of energy to make a solar panel. However, as they become more efficient the trade-off tilts toward solar panels and away from natural gas (coal is dead in the US - just legacy.) It uses semiconductor technology after all.

Actually, I don't think my earlier horse analogy was all that bad in many respects.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Zippster

Not sure it will happen that soon, but I agree it will most likely happen - in large cities. There are way too many IC cars out there for the EV to overcome. The Government would have to apply a very high tax on Gas and other such means that allow the IC to continue to be driven, but make it very uneconomical. We bought these cars legitimately so they can't really make them unlawful to use. At some point you might not be able to buy a new car that is not EV.

There is a tendency in Europe to ban highly polluting cars out of cities, except if you got a residence permit. Could be problematic if you got an old(er) car (especially with a diesel engine).

For Europe the M2 got the EU6 emissions standard, so should be no problem for the moment.

[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by WAY

Yes we could do with better charging infrastructure in this country!

In the U.S., it's not just charging infrastructure, it's the electric grid for the entire country, which is made up of everything from brand-new technologies to pieces that were designed 75 years ago. It is very fragile, with the possibility of one breaker being tripped, one piece of equipment failing or one programming mistake being made that can instantly black out a multi-state region of the country. Massive adoption of electric cars would cause the grid - which is, in reality, the largest machine in the country - to collapse. So, if we're serious about electric cars, we need to push our legislators to pay significant attention to upgrading the grid.

For now, the smartest thing to do for load management on the grid (and to cut costs for vehicle owners) is to recharge electric vehicles overnight, when demand is lowest on the grid and thus the cost for producing (and using) electricity is lowest. During the day in winter and summer, many electric systems across the country already are "peaking" - approaching or surpassing their capacity for producing enough electricity to meet demand, and the worst thing that can happen is for a bunch of electric vehicles to be added to the load before, say, 9 p.m. The goal has to be educating the public to help even out demand to more of a 24-hour basis than exists now; if that doesn't happen, electricity rationing is a possibility in some areas.

[CosmosMpower]

Holy crap did not realize Tesla's market cap is larger than GM and a good bit larger than Ford. I passed a regular F250 towing a Tesla Model S on an open flatbed trailer and on the side it said "Tesla Factory Services" or something like that. How ghetto.

[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

Holy crap did not realize Tesla's market cap is larger than GM and a good bit larger than Ford.

Market cap is a lousy way to evaluate a business, unless you're a Wall Street promoter, selling your company or borrowing money to continue operations. Tesla is bleeding red ink. The company has never posted an annual profit. Its worldwide sales are minuscule, compared to GM - less than 1% of GM's total production. Return on investment is negative at Tesla - but setting records at GM.

Some "experts" think Tesla is headed down the same path toward bankruptcy GM followed several years ago. Who knows? You've definitely got to give Tesla credit for developing new technologies and having the biggest cajones in the world of auto manufacturing, but at some point the company has to start making money.