[doccyber]

Originally Posted by goj

You can be tactile and raw with AWD. It's not just about 0-60 times. It's about getting the power down all the time which the current M5 has issues with.

I'm sure this will be an excellent car, especially from an enthusiast perspective.

From an enthusiast stand point, the best M5 has and will be the E39 M5. The new M is just too fat to be anywhere close to the pure driving pleasure of that older M5.

[Germanauto]

More tech for the sake of having more tech. Will it make the car any more fun to drive? Absolutely not.

[nike001]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

I should have clarified, *REAL* M cars. The original M cars.

That said, the ZF 8 speed is a great transmission. Jag uses it on the F Type RS, and it nails every gear. I think it will all just come down to software tuning.

That non-real M car uses the same engine as the 'real' F10 M5 you're referring to, so I could argue that the X5/6M is just as much real as the F10 M5. I, personally, think 'real' M cars died with the E60 M5 & E9x M3. Just IMO; But that's the age we live in. Old tech dies.

*BUT* It will absolutely come down to tuning. BMW has always tuned their transmissions well. Jeep, on the other hand, has had numerous issues with their ZF transmissions that have gone through numerous recalls.

[StealYourFace]

Originally Posted by AWSB328iM

I was expecting at least 650hp.

Sure, at 600hp this thing is dangerously underpowered.

[StealYourFace]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

I guess my days exploring this part of the forums is over. AWD shit. Sucks because it really looked good.

Also, didn't the head of M say this wasn't happening? What a cocksucker.

Hey I agree with what you say but easy on the cock sucker hate.

[StealYourFace]

Its amazing how time moves by so quickly.

It seems like just months ago, BMW stuck an M5 mule with a stick shift in california, to the delight of us 'purists.' (the last get car, which seemed like a gem and will be a bargain as resale plummets)

Now, M5xiA

[nike001]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

More tech for the sake of having more tech. Will it make the car any more fun to drive? Absolutely not.

Are you new to BMW? This is what they've always done. They build new cars for the sake of building new cars; they build entirely brand new engines for the sake of... building entirely brand new engines. That's what makes the brand premium, and that's one of the reasons they cost so much: Incredible amounts of R&D. If you wanted a stagnant brand, Toyota/Lexus, Honda, or Subaru might be more your speed.

[dba1t]

Originally Posted by BMWonlyZone

I just turned in my 2014 M5 for a 2017 X6M I went from the DCT to the Zf/Xdrive setup Granted, the X6M is a huge pig, but anyone who compares the performance of the double clutch to the ZF has never driven one after the other for extended periods The double clutch is SO superior it's not even close Don't believe what BMW is trying to tell you. There is nothing I miss more from my M5 than the tranny.

It's good, but it's not close to the double clutch. Trust me on this.

Agreed. A torque converter will water down the experience, no matter how well the transmission is tuned/programmed. The AMG E63 S uses an MCT, which removes the torque converter from the equation. It is a middle step between a pure automotic and DCT. Perhaps BMW will do something llike the MCT. Not perfect, but better.

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by dba1t

Agreed. A torque converter will water down the experience, no matter how well the transmission is tuned/programmed. The AMG E63 S uses an MCT, which removes the torque converter from the equation. It is a middle step between a pure automotic and DCT. Perhaps BMW will do something llike the MCT. Not perfect, but better.

MB's old 7G was absolutely horrible, but they seem to have fixed the complaints that people had about slow gear changes. The new 9G I hear is pretty darn responsive too.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by nike001

Are you new to BMW? This is what they've always done. They build new cars for the sake of building new cars; they build entirely brand new engines for the sake of... building entirely brand new engines. That's what makes the brand premium, and that's one of the reasons they cost so much: Incredible amounts of R&D. If you wanted a stagnant brand, Toyota/Lexus, Honda, or Subaru might be more your speed.

You don't know the first thing about me. There are ways to keep pushing the buck forward while allowing your cars to still feel communicative and have a soul, see Porsche, Ferrari, and Alfa Romeo.

Outside the M2 and M4, I can't say BMW's technological advances have done anything positive for the driving experience but produce faster lap times.

[jeremyr4]

I couldn't be more disappointed with the move away from DCT. As most people here have said, you just can't compare it to anything auto - even the Merc MCT feels very different (not as good). I do think, however, that the AWD will be less of an issue because you can make it 100% RWD so I think people are over-reacting to that.

While the move to ZF8 is surprising and extremely disappointing, what is truly SHOCKING to me is that this model, which will start as a 2018, will likely NOT be a hybrid electric (at least not in its base form - maybe the next cp or cs will have that) until at least 2026 if you assume that it won't change significantly through its lifecycle like all previous Ms. Most people here wanted more than another reworked S63 and that's what they should have done to be a leader and differentiate from the competition (like they used to back with the E60, E46, etc). All I can say is that this is very disappointing but I shouldn't be surprised, as most here know and agree that M has been disappointing us since the E60 and E46/E9x (depending on who you ask!).

And here I thought the next gen M3/M4 might have hybrid electric to get rid of the turbo lag. Now I am just hoping they will have a DCT!!!!

[stvding]

Originally Posted by mc3456

Huracan does not make huge torque like turbo motors do.

911 turbo?

[Nar]

I'm not even gonna read what all these 7 pages say. I'm gonna sit back, relax, and wait for official BMW released information or at least a more credible source

[No Boost]

Lots of bitching and moaning pertaining to DCT vs ZF8. What about the clear, present, and all but confirmed debacle? No more driver engaging MT?

[OverDrive]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

No they don't. The 8-speed PDK is a ZF unit. Porsche may have helped develop the 8-speed PDK with ZF but it's definitely not their own.

Oh damn you're right!
I figured since they're naming it "Porshce" doppelkupplungsgetriebe that it would be their own design and production since I remember reading an article about the history of Porsche and developing the PDK for motorsports.

Although after some research it seems that all PDK's are co-developed between ZF and Porsche.

[trey100]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

I should have clarified, *REAL* M cars. The original M cars.

That said, the ZF 8 speed is a great transmission. Jag uses it on the F Type RS, and it nails every gear. I think it will all just come down to software tuning.

This.

I was about to post the same.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by OverDrive

Oh damn you're right!
I figured since they're naming it "Porshce" doppelkupplungsgetriebe that it would be their own design and production since I remember reading an article about the history of Porsche and developing the PDK for motorsports.

Although after some research it seems that all PDK's are co-developed between ZF and Porsche.

No worries. It's all just a bunch of marketing. BMW uses the "M-DCT" but the unit is a Getrag unit. A lot of people seem to think that manufacturers make their own unit (some do) but I find it strange when I'm reading this thread and I see "BMW should improve their transmissions to handle the torque". Improve what? BMW doesn't make the DCT in their M cars. They might calibrate the software but they have nothing to do with the actual hardware.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

No worries. It's all just a bunch of marketing. BMW uses the "M-DCT" but the unit is a Getrag unit. A lot of people seem to think that manufacturers make their own unit (some do) but I find it strange when I'm reading this thread and I see "BMW should improve their transmissions to handle the torque". Improve what? BMW doesn't make the DCT in their M cars. They might calibrate the software but they have nothing to do with the actual hardware.

Most people surely know that firms like GKN/Getrag/Ricardo/ZF etc... are making these transmissions/drivelines but they do that in conjunction with the vehicle manufacturers, they don't spend many millions on development without having a partner willing to buy it or one that at least thinks it's a good idea.

Lets take the MDCT gearbox from Getrag, which other brand takes that gearbox with the same ratios and control software?

[superchargedman]

I was always torn between manual and dct. The zf auto would definitely make me go manual immediately...if only it were offered.

[jeremyr4]

Originally Posted by Stage IV

Lots of bitching and moaning pertaining to DCT vs ZF8. What about the clear, present, and all but confirmed debacle? No more driver engaging MT?

The order rate on manuals is just too low so I can understand that. The real confirmed debacle is that they are using a reworked S63 just to keep up with competition vs a hybrid electric to be a true leader in this segment. Merc will be using hybrid electric in its GTS sedan in 2020 and we will have to wait until at least 2025 for that setup. Huge mistake by BMW M that will put it years behind its competition very soon, which clearly doesn't align with its claim to be focused on being a tech leader going forward!!

[YungDro]

thread closed....

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by YungDro

nope its a brand new AWD/RWD system that will be first introduced into the M5. future M cars will adopt this new system also. its a M car man.. not a 120d xdrive lol.

You have no idea what the M system will be like is my point, hence my post that I "hope" it's totally different.

Which for some strange reason you took exception to and tried to argue with/educate me on from a position that gives you no clue.