[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

How do you know it was almost as good versus just as good?

Mobil 1 0W40 is a great oil — I ran it in my E90 M3 that specified 10W60. Of course it originally specified Castrol 10W60 and people would say the engine was designed around the Castrol oil, but when Shell took over BMW’s oil contract, Shell 10W60 became good enough.

Oil analyses were how we knew. Copper and lead levels were lower in the Motul 300V analyses. But it was SMALL. Real small. Silicon was higher in the Motul, but it's thought that Motul uses it as an antifoaming agent (from Virgin oil analysis).

And your point about Mobil and Castrol and Shell is JUST like I've said before. So long as you're not WAYYY off on weights, and it's a good manufacturer, you're good.


Shawn

[Danny D]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Other than missing the BMW certification (that's a pain to get), it's effin awesome. Equivalent is Mobil 0W-40, which is the factory fill for many a car.

Why would you want to put it in an M5?

Shawn

I'm due for an oil change - been using redline 0-30 for 4 years, thought I would try something new,,, thanks to you, lol.

My car has almost never seen the dealer, and I'm out of warranty - so my options are whatever my heart desires .

Give me a recommendation - I'd like to see what you purpose, thanks.

I heard good things about total oils as well.

[Danny D]

Interesting LM recommends 5w-30

https://www.liqui-moly.com/en/ca/spe...847.html#20442

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Danny D

I'm due for an oil change - been using redline 0-30 for 4 years, thought I would try something new,,, thanks to you, lol.

My car has almost never seen the dealer, and I'm out of warranty - so my options are whatever my heart desires .

Give me a recommendation - I'd like to see what you purpose, thanks.

I heard good things about total oils as well.

Redline is great. If you've been happy, don't change.

Questions:
1. Do you track or drag race?
2. Will the car see freezing temps or greater than 105deg F sustained? (and be expected to start and run frequently)

If you do neither, I'd stick with the Redline, it's fine. If you do either, I'd think about it before I said something stupid.

But if you run around town, and don't really see high temps, or freezing, the liqui-moly recommendation from DannyD is AWESOME.

That ALSO being said, people wonder why 5W-30 vs. 0W-30. The 0W-30 requires more "tricks" to be played to make the oil do THAT. It wears out quicker. Honestly. If we could REALLY make sure our cars only started at 75deg F or above all the time, and never ran stupid hot, we'd run a straight 30weight oil. Truthfully. But, we live in the real world. Where things aren't so easy.

DannyD, this is why Liqui-Moly says 5W-30 over 0W-30. Less additives that wear out.

Shawn

[Danny D]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Redline is great. If you've been happy, don't change.

Questions:
1. Do you track or drag race?
2. Will the car see freezing temps or greater than 105deg F sustained? (and be expected to start and run frequently)

If you do neither, I'd stick with the Redline, it's fine. If you do either, I'd think about it before I said something stupid.

But if you run around town, and don't really see high temps, or freezing, the liqui-moly recommendation from DannyD is AWESOME.

That ALSO being said, people wonder why 5W-30 vs. 0W-30. The 0W-30 requires more "tricks" to be played to make the oil do THAT. It wears out quicker. Honestly. If we could REALLY make sure our cars only started at 75deg F or above all the time, and never ran stupid hot, we'd run a straight 30weight oil. Truthfully. But, we live in the real world. Where things aren't so easy.

DannyD, this is why Liqui-Moly says 5W-30 over 0W-30. Less additives that wear out.

Shawn

Thanks buddy - I guess I'll stick with the redline since I change my oil every 7,500KM anyway so its fairly clean between changes from what we can tell.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

I'm a big fan of 2 cans of LiquiMoly Mos2 additive with every 5k with every oil change as it adds protection for crank & rod bearings that cannot be had with oil alone. But just don't take my word for it, I brought receipts. Below is a video I just did testing a intake I made for my 10 year old X5 with the original 182k mile n63, the OG engine that started it all and what all S63's are based off of (they still share a few things like crank bearings).

Even after a brutal life with its previous owner, then I get a hold of it, tweaking, modding, and tuning it for the past 5 years to S63TU3 power levels despite its inferior stock turbos and cast pistons, and driving it like I stole it every single day, it still is as fast as new 2022 X5M. That is saying something on a 182k mile engine that pushes a 5300lb tank. Again highly recommend the MoS2, just check with your SA before using to make sure it wont mess with your warranty.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

I'm a big fan of 2 cans of LiquiMoly Mos2 additive with every 5k with every oil change as it adds protection for crank & rod bearings that cannot be had with oil alone. But just don't take my word for it, I brought receipts. Below is a video I just did testing a intake I made for my 10 year old X5 with the original 182k mile n63, the OG engine that started it all and what all S63's are based off of (they still share a few things like crank bearings).

In general, a lot of the Bobisthoilguy people wait until 4-5 years of engine wear on these before throwing in the molybdenum disulfide in high concentrations. Their argument is that the moly sits as a dry lubricant and it needs room that's worn off for it to sit.

I've tried both ways. Can't tell a difference personally. But that's probably because I've done a lot of really good oils and not much garbage.

I'm being lazy. What does Liqui-moly say?

Shawn

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

In general, a lot of the Bobisthoilguy people wait until 4-5 years of engine wear on these before throwing in the molybdenum disulfide in high concentrations. Their argument is that the moly sits as a dry lubricant and it needs room that's worn off for it to sit.

I've tried both ways. Can't tell a difference personally. But that's probably because I've done a lot of really good oils and not much garbage.

I'm being lazy. What does Liqui-moly say?

Shawn

That is an interesting way to look at things and perhaps I am missing something but the goal is to not have any wear on any of the bearing surfaces so are they talking about the piston rings /timing chain with this logic? I mean you generally never want any type of wear on crank journals and bearing surfaces and piston rings should all be broken in after first 3k miles. I assume LM will reply back with its safe to use once the manufactures break-in period is complete but I will reach out to them to get the official word.

[pbonsalb]

No one is disassembling the motor to look. They are just doing blackstone sample tests. Those can be good if done from new but maybe not as much if started on a used car.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

That is an interesting way to look at things and perhaps I am missing something but the goal is to not have any wear on any of the bearing surfaces so are they talking about the piston rings /timing chain with this logic? I mean you generally never want any type of wear on crank journals and bearing surfaces and piston rings should all be broken in after first 3k miles. I assume LM will reply back with its safe to use once the manufactures break-in period is complete but I will reach out to them to get the official word.

I trust the company, but the whole "additive" idea begs a VERY SPECIFIC question.

WHY NOT HAVE IT IN THE OIL ANYWAY?

If it isn't in the oil that's BMW approved, there's a reason. They know it, and just get them to cop to it.

My buddies at Exxon/Mobil say it makes the oil a little abrasive in too high a concentration. It works great at startup (cause it's sitting on the surfaces), but the higher the concentration gets the less likelihood that it helps.

A lot of oil makers have gotten away from high moly suspect for these reasons. Liqui-moly doesn't put it in the "off the shelf" products mostly. And it's in their name. So, WHY?

Shawn

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

No one is disassembling the motor to look. They are just doing blackstone sample tests. Those can be good if done from new but maybe not as much if started on a used car.

Eh, blackstone is okay, but you're better off with a micrographic as well...

If you REALLY care...

https://testoil.com/

But that may be too much for many. I'm not sure I agree with the premise that it's not helpful on a used care. Might be VERY helpful for which "used car" to avoid.

Shawn

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

I trust the company, but the whole "additive" idea begs a VERY SPECIFIC question.

WHY NOT HAVE IT IN THE OIL ANYWAY?

If it isn't in the oil that's BMW approved, there's a reason. They know it, and just get them to cop to it.

My buddies at Exxon/Mobil say it makes the oil a little abrasive in too high a concentration. It works great at startup (cause it's sitting on the surfaces), but the higher the concentration gets the less likelihood that it helps.

A lot of oil makers have gotten away from high moly suspect for these reasons. Liqui-moly doesn't put it in the "off the shelf" products mostly. And it's in their name. So, WHY?

Shawn

Look no further then why BMW tells your transmission oil is lifetime (directly against what ZF recommends) or why your engine compartment is locked up like a tomb, ensuring all those nifty plastic and rubber bits fail soon after 5-6years, just in time for a new loan/lease. The goal is not to make a car that lasts forever, the goal is to get you coming back in a reasonable amount of time. 100k miles or less is that number. You driving around in a 10 year old BMW does them no good. As the masses transition to electric, it's the very reason why battery tech will never surpass 5-6years or 100k miles without significant degrading performance/reliability. Morals and ethics aside, It is absolutely horrible for business to create a product that rarely needs replacement. And here we are.

With that being said, I can see the abrasive argument for Mos2. However protection from LSPI bearing damage and startup wear tips the scales in it's favor by a large margin IMHO.

But all of this is just bench racing, let's talk real world results. Are there many users posting examples of 10 year old 180+ mile engines outputting 150+hp per liter pushing 5500lbs (think about that, it's like pulling a 1000+lb trailer in your M and then flogging it all the time) running just straight oil up on Bob's? Or is just all hypothetical?

I will acknowledge that my experience is anecdotal and could just be a lucky fluke, but considering this is on the original n63 engine, the engine that BMW lost a class action lawsuit over....well then it's one hell of a fluke.

[pbonsalb]

There are always outliers. And even among cars considered lemons, some examples do just fine. 1 high mileage motor using moly does not convince me that any example of the same motor using moly would wear the same.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

There are always outliers. And even among cars considered lemons, some examples do just fine. 1 high mileage motor using moly does not convince me that any example of the same motor using moly would wear the same.

I understand where you are coming from. If you parse the previous gen M forums, you will find posts of random bearing failure with enough frequency to cause alarm. It is why I decided to use Mos2 in my engine, even though I had never used it before, I found enough positive posts like mine above to make me want to try it plus I knew being the first gen hot-vee from BMW that had already earned an infamous reputation, it needed all the help it could get.

Time will tell if the S63TU3 in the F90 suffer the same fate as previous generations. If they do, right around the 5-6 year mark is where we should start seeing reports of random engine failure in both tuned and non-tuned engines alike creep in.

IMHO, the randomness is not random at all but rather the culmination of wear on the bearings caused by LSPI and pre-ignition events breaking the oil film and destroying the bearings surface overtime until it eventually complete oil film failure and engine seizure/spun bearings.

Moly has been shown to decrease LSPI while at the same time having greatly increasing the shear strength of the carrier oil, adding a protective buffer against the crushing forces from a LSPI event.

Again just my opinion so take it for what its worth, however if I am right, others will eventually chime in and hopefully this info will help owners enjoy their M's for many years to come.

[pbonsalb]

It won’t hurt. I bought some and started adding it. Supposedly ZDDP is also helpful in reducing the likelihood of LSPI. I am not convinced LSPI is the sole cause of engine failures, but it may be responsible for some failures. There are several theories as to what causes LSPI and moly does not address all theories. There are also theories as to what kinds of engines are more likely to be affected by LSPI and moderate to larger displacement V8s are not first among those mentioned. Maybe the best thing is to stop chasing fuel economy. Turn off auto start stop. Use sport settings for the engine and transmission.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Look no further then why BMW tells your transmission oil is lifetime (directly against what ZF recommends) or why your engine compartment is locked up like a tomb, ensuring all those nifty plastic and rubber bits fail soon after 5-6years, just in time for a new loan/lease. The goal is not to make a car that lasts forever, the goal is to get you coming back in a reasonable amount of time. 100k miles or less is that number. You driving around in a 10 year old BMW does them no good. As the masses transition to electric, it's the very reason why battery tech will never surpass 5-6years or 100k miles without significant degrading performance/reliability. Morals and ethics aside, It is absolutely horrible for business to create a product that rarely needs replacement. And here we are.

With that being said, I can see the abrasive argument for Mos2. However protection from LSPI bearing damage and startup wear tips the scales in it's favor by a large margin IMHO.

But all of this is just bench racing, let's talk real world results. Are there many users posting examples of 10 year old 180+ mile engines outputting 150+hp per liter pushing 5500lbs (think about that, it's like pulling a 1000+lb trailer in your M and then flogging it all the time) running just straight oil up on Bob's? Or is just all hypothetical?

I will acknowledge that my experience is anecdotal and could just be a lucky fluke, but considering this is on the original n63 engine, the engine that BMW lost a class action lawsuit over....well then it's one hell of a fluke.

I got no problem with your logic.

But why doesn't Liqui-Moly make a BMW approved oil, and one that has JUST THE RIGHT AMOUNT of molybdenum in it with an explanation. I have no problems with Moly. It was one of the first really good dry phase lubricants that could be added to a liquid in suspension.

But, to your anecdotal question, there are certainly some guys on Bobistheoilguy and many other forums running REALLY HIGH hp/L cars on nothing but Mobil-1. Also Redline. And Motul. Which are all VERY different products. Head to head, who the hell knows.

As I've said before, what really distinguishes the "lasters" versus the "failures" are the conservative tunes, who change oil REGULARLY, and choose a premium off the shelf manufacturer oil. There are still failures. Just like there are always going to be.

Shawn

[pbonsalb]

And run only top tier fuel, preferably 93.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

And run only top tier fuel, preferably 93.

Holy mother.

I know we do ACTUALLY have to say this, cause I've seen guys in Lamborghini's putting Sheetz or Wawa gas in their cars. But yes, REALLY? Are you gonna debate whether or not you're going to use 5W-30 or 5W-40 oil in your car and skimp $0.15 per gallon on fuel? REALLY?

Shawn

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Haola86

Check out bobistheoilguy. com for 5W50

I risk being a dick here, but...

Castrol 5W-50
Valvoline 5W-50
Amsoil 5W-50
Mobil 5W-50
Schaeffer 5W-50
Motul 5W-50
Redline 5W-50
Ravenol 5W-50...
etc.

Which one? They're all VASTLY different.

Shawn

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

I got no problem with your logic.

But why doesn't Liqui-Moly make a BMW approved oil, and one that has JUST THE RIGHT AMOUNT of molybdenum in it with an explanation. I have no problems with Moly. It was one of the first really good dry phase lubricants that could be added to a liquid in suspension.

But, to your anecdotal question, there are certainly some guys on Bobistheoilguy and many other forums running REALLY HIGH hp/L cars on nothing but Mobil-1. Also Redline. And Motul. Which are all VERY different products. Head to head, who the hell knows.

As I've said before, what really distinguishes the "lasters" versus the "failures" are the conservative tunes, who change oil REGULARLY, and choose a premium off the shelf manufacturer oil. There are still failures. Just like there are always going to be.

Shawn

CARB/emission and MPG requirements compliance is what dictates manufactures oil recommendation and thus the super lightweight oils in common use today. Engine longevity is a distant second. And again this is a company that tells you NOT to change your transmission oil. It is not in their benefit to increase reliability or life span past 100k miles. So a better question would be, why would BMW want to approve a moly oil? What would be the benefit to BMW if people could get 200k+ miles of their rides without major service? The bump in sales from positive word of mouth on brand longevity would not be more profitable then ensuring acceptable reliability to 100k, then car go boom, customer returns for new purchase.

Hmmm, Can you show me some receipts and provide some links to those examples? Looking for something comparable to mine as a N/A engine in a lightweight sedan is not the same. So examples of just oil (any oil) no additive, turbo charged engines with more then 180k miles on the clock pushing 150hp+ per liter in a heavy 2+ ton truck or SUV applications? If there are many of those examples up on Bob's, then it will be clear my experience is nothing exceptional and I'll go radio silent about Mos2.

I agree with you that regular oil changes and conservative tunes are key to engine longevity along with decent gas. IMHO, e30 should be the gold standard in all BMW twin turbo v8's or a mix of race gas with 91/93 with a 94+ aki goal. Would my tune be considered conservative though? ESS tuning would not push the boost/timing any higher then stage 2 with the original n63 so I had to add a jb4 on top of it to reach my goal (make it as fast as new X5M competition) I am pushing 50% more power over stock n63 rated 408hp and double the boost, I am dancing on the ragged edge of the stock turbos efficiency envelope, especially considering this not the M variant so it has cast pistons, less oil sprayers, and smaller non twin scroll turbos.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

CARB/emission and MPG requirements compliance is what dictates manufactures oil recommendation and thus the super lightweight oils in common use today. Engine longevity is a distant second. And again this is a company that tells you NOT to change your transmission oil. It is not in their benefit to increase reliability or life span past 100k miles. So a better question would be, why would BMW want to approve a moly oil? What would be the benefit to BMW if people could get 200k+ miles of their rides without major service? The bump in sales from positive word of mouth on brand longevity would not be more profitable then ensuring acceptable reliability to 100k, then car go boom, customer returns for new purchase.

You totally missed the question...

Why doesn't LiquiMoly make an oil with the appropriate amount of moly that's not approved by BMW. Why sell a "supplement"? Why not just the one that has what they think the right amount is?

Shawn

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

You totally missed the question...

Why doesn't LiquiMoly make an oil with the appropriate amount of moly that's not approved by BMW. Why sell a "supplement"? Why not just the one that has what they think the right amount is?

Shawn

I thought I did? I asked why would BMW approve it? It is at the sole discretion for BMW to approve any oil and is ruled by whatever internal mandate they have which can change at anytime without notice. In addition to this, modern oil recommendations are dictated by CARB/CAFE standards first and foremost. Where would long term engine longevity rank on that list? 3rd, 5th, 10th? Moly has never been shown to help with enough with mileage or emissions to outweigh the additional cost so what use is to BMW?

If you are in doubt, please see the BMW recommend extended engine oil change intervals and the outright lie of never needing to change your transmission oil as further evidence as to where drive train life ranks on BMW (or any high end auto manufactures) list of priorities.

So again what is in for BMW if an oil or additive shows outstanding wear and engine life performance past 100k miles?

Now in the past this was more acceptable, however we are living in the last days of the V8. The latest rev of the S63 engine in the F90 will be one of the last ever made. IMHO the F90 will become a collectors item in the future because of this and extending the engines life is more important then ever. And even if you don't care about such things, the bonus is trade-in/resale values will go through the roof.

All of this is a moot point though if just straight oil is all that is needed as you indicated to reach well over 100k miles in high performance forced induction engines pushing heavy vehicles. I need to see some real life examples to believe that however as parsing the previous gen M5 & X5M forums & speaking to previous gen owners, as well as the absolute dismal resale values past 100K miles appears to indicate engines go BOOM in the 100-130k mile range with engine bearing failure due to oil film breakdown being by far the dominant cause. Almost like its working as intended....