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      07-20-2020, 01:54 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticBlue View Post
So.... I'd like to see it in black and white. I would like to see it in writing. It's 1200 miles, but obviously it can't be exactly 1200 miles.
It has to be 1200 miles, plus or minus...what? So is 1300 miles OK? But at 1301, your warranty is void? Or is it 1400 miles? Maybe it's 1637 miles? What's the magic number? Has anybody ever seen it in writing? Since tens of thousands of dollars can be in question here, it must be in writing somewhere. One of you lawyer types must have read all the small print somewhere.
Over 2000 miles your warranty is voided in the UK.
I px’ed mine and they checked service history and mine was done at 1998 miles. The dealer told me that, had it done 3 more miles for that service, the value would have been drastically reduced and he wouldn’t have takeN it for BMW approved.
He showed me the details in writing. That service is a big deal in the life of the F90 engine.
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      07-20-2020, 05:08 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by DocWeatherington View Post
Actually, that is your second oil change ( Unless the dealership messed up) ...

Break-in service includes an oil change and changing of a few different fluids. The second one is based upon the onboard diagnostics system saying we need to do it again - the oil/filter is dirty. Once broken in the system could allow for 10k plus before it needs to be changed.

Again, were are talking a high end sensitive but strong almost 700hp crank german motor
The oil change at 4500 miles would not have been because the oil or filter was dirty as the the engine does not monitor the condition of the oil but it based on time and I believe the oil is changed every 12 months in the US. So if you check the build date or registration date you will find that the car was 12 months old at the requested oil service.

I think another problem is that when you buy your new M5 the service warning light is on from day 1 (and told to ignore until 1200 miles)for the running in service and I think it should come on near the 1200 mile to remind you with a stronger warning if you go past it.
Everybody on the forum is well aware about M cars having a running in service but the salesman my not have told the customer this and as we all know not many new cars have this requirement.

I don't know what is wrong with this engine but it sounds a big strange to me.I am in the motor trade and it's not unheard for someone to start the engine before refilling with oil!

I don't think going over the 1200 mile service should be that catastrophic and believe it or not I have across quite a few of second hand M cars that have never had the running in service completed, this does effect warranty and price but I have never seen any evidence that this has been detrimental in the long term.
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      07-20-2020, 08:37 AM   #69
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Interestingly, I just brought my M5 for service, and I was over by 2k km for recommended oil change by the car. The service department warned me that they flagged my car for future complications/warranty work with the engine due to this.

But I change my oil outside the dealer often, so they said to keep those receipts. If something will happen, they will need those to offer any service....
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      07-20-2020, 09:30 AM   #70
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replacing the oil every 2k miles would be fine if you wanted to, as long as you keep the receipts showing it done. the issue is blowing by or ignoring the car telling you to do it for whatever reason.

as long as the 3rd party or dealer is resetting the oil change interval, it should not matter.

when in doubt, take things in EARLY vs late. why risk it with a $120k car?

i hope it works out for OP. its an expensive lesson if not!
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      07-20-2020, 10:17 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by F90Joe View Post
Other than the fact that I was never told the dire importance of doing so, this was during the entire pandemic - working from home and was not rushing to go into unnecessary places.

When I brought it in for the service, no one said "hey btw your warranty is voided now" - and the car has been there 3x since that service, all of which were covered under warranty. Now that there is a larger issue, they are claiming no warranty - how do you pick and choose?
Which SoFla dealer?
Sound a bit crazy since the break-in service is optional
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      07-20-2020, 10:31 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VERAF90 View Post
Sound a bit crazy since the break-in service is optional
what? since when?
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      07-20-2020, 10:39 AM   #73
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I recall BMW putting a sticker on the windshield regarding the break in period and the 1200 mile service. Can't remember if it was on the E60 or F10 that I had but it was put there for a reason. My F90 had no sticker.
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      07-20-2020, 11:55 AM   #74
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OP, pull the service papers on your oil change that occurred right before you were having these problems. See what kind of oil is being used on the service documents. This is a major problem at BMW service, you have to let everyone(SA, technician) know that this is an M car especially if like me you had it debadged. I went in for an oil change an this new lady SA that was there told me my run flats probably needed to be changed in the front.
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      07-20-2020, 03:55 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian335xd View Post
The oil change at 4500 miles would not have been because the oil or filter was dirty as the the engine does not monitor the condition of the oil but it based on time and I believe the oil is changed every 12 months in the US. So if you check the build date or registration date you will find that the car was 12 months old at the requested oil service.

I think another problem is that when you buy your new M5 the service warning light is on from day 1 (and told to ignore until 1200 miles)for the running in service and I think it should come on near the 1200 mile to remind you with a stronger warning if you go past it.
Everybody on the forum is well aware about M cars having a running in service but the salesman my not have told the customer this and as we all know not many new cars have this requirement.

I don't know what is wrong with this engine but it sounds a big strange to me.I am in the motor trade and it's not unheard for someone to start the engine before refilling with oil!

I don't think going over the 1200 mile service should be that catastrophic and believe it or not I have across quite a few of second hand M cars that have never had the running in service completed, this does effect warranty and price but I have never seen any evidence that this has been detrimental in the long term.

I beg to differ. You do realize at the brake-in service the oil is changed (among other fluids) around 1200 miles?

Additionally, I had a second oil change within 6 months based upon the CBS system making the determination. I think in the US its 1yr or 12k max between changes, however, I've never had a modern BMW that went a year or beyond 8k before the car called for an oil change.
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      07-20-2020, 04:03 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocWeatherington View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3PGH View Post
my understanding is that M cars that have their BIS after 2000 miles can't be certified , but I have never heard that warranty denied for delaying that service
though having done multiple M school over the years and talked to multiple instructors and mechanics, they always do the break in service before they put the car in service for the school, so it seems BMW sticks to that religiously as it cost them money to run these cars for 1200 miles before using them
hope your case will be resolved promptly
I can also confirm this when I did ED on the F80, they were like do not drive over the break-in miles, if your close take it to any dealership and have it serviced, and they would reimburse later. I only did 1100 miles and they completed the service at the port.

Let us know what the outcome is, but I think they void your stuff if they believe your at fault for not following the maintenance schedule and it caused/enhanced the damage.

Hopefully, BMW of NA steps in and is like no...
Why would the dealer have to reimburse you for the BIS. Isn't it covered?
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      07-20-2020, 04:28 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Maverik259 View Post
Why would the dealer have to reimburse you for the BIS. Isn't it covered?
It is covered... under the BMW NA maintenance plan. However, when you're in Europe on ED that doesn't apply. Thus, they want you to get it done at any service center then you just submit the paperwork back to BMW NA and BMW NA reimburses you.


Or when your car is checked before delivery to the dealership once off the boat at the factory extension they will do this or fix any repairs/damage.


Well, this isn't the case anymore because NA ED is dead so.. yeah...
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      07-20-2020, 05:17 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by euro* View Post
Interestingly, I just brought my M5 for service, and I was over by 2k km for recommended oil change by the car. The service department warned me that they flagged my car for future complications/warranty work with the engine due to this.

But I change my oil outside the dealer often, so they said to keep those receipts. If something will happen, they will need those to offer any service....
What dealership? I'm in Toronto and haven't gone in for service through COVID; left the car in storage longer as there was no need for me to drive it. I'm past the time clock on an oil change (March) but nowhere close on mileage. My vehicle is over a year old and has less than 10K KMs.
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      07-21-2020, 03:22 PM   #79
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Apart of BMW's break-in rules it makes zero sense to me that running the engine oil for another 1000 miles could possibly produce metal shavings in the engine.

Logic prevents that 1200 miles = good and 2200 miles = get a new engine.
Porsche break-in is at 2000 miles and AMG is at 10000 miles. AMG has a 1500 mile fluid change for the LSD on some models (E63s) but when asked they say it's not needed.

As for the low amount of driving distance (1000 miles) and COVID, the OP will have a good case in court.
Given the timing and the lack of safety procedures or closed shops, it could be considered an undue burden and safety risk. 1000 miles after all equals less than a month of average driving.
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      07-21-2020, 03:41 PM   #80
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are there "break in fluids" vs normal?

is the oil put in the car initially the same exact oil you get at the break in service or is it special? i have no idea myself, but maybe someone does.

I highly doubt they just came up with 1200 miles on a whim. maybe YOUR logic does not want it to be that way as far as when BMW wants break in service done, but it obviously does to a giant car company.

what if, during break in, a lot more metal and other contaminates are generated. it would seem they would have to have done significant research and engineering to determine that 1200 miles maximizes the break in process while minimizing additional wear.

if someone told you to stay in the sun for 30 minutes and come in for a break, but you blew it off and stayed for 60+ minutes, whose fault is it that you got burned?

why would dropping a car off at a service center for a day or so be a safety issue or undue burden? Is it any more dangerous or a burden than driving the car to the grocery store, the office, or anywhere else?

How much lawyer time and cost is it worth to fight it? how many people on this forum have pockets deep enough that BMW would consider capitulating? my guess is it would cost far more to litigate this than deal with out of pocket expenses at a decent indy repair shop.

BMW makes the rules, no one else. it is what it is.
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      07-21-2020, 04:57 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfman64 View Post
Apart of BMW's break-in rules it makes zero sense to me that running the engine oil for another 1000 miles could possibly produce metal shavings in the engine.

Logic prevents that 1200 miles = good and 2200 miles = get a new engine.
Porsche break-in is at 2000 miles and AMG is at 10000 miles. AMG has a 1500 mile fluid change for the LSD on some models (E63s) but when asked they say it's not needed.

As for the low amount of driving distance (1000 miles) and COVID, the OP will have a good case in court.
Given the timing and the lack of safety procedures or closed shops, it could be considered an undue burden and safety risk. 1000 miles after all equals less than a month of average driving.
No... point missed...

The purpose of the break-in period is to allow the parts to break in. Not all motors do this the same nor have the same tolerances. If BMW wants it done at 1200, means they have a reason for it.

The fluid change is to remove all the containments

See the video below.




MikeStammer


See the link below. Note: Country-specific deviations

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...nce/1VncAGK9n5
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      07-21-2020, 05:40 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStammer View Post
are there "break in fluids" vs normal?

is the oil put in the car initially the same exact oil you get at the break in service or is it special? i have no idea myself, but maybe someone does.

I highly doubt they just came up with 1200 miles on a whim. maybe YOUR logic does not want it to be that way as far as when BMW wants break in service done, but it obviously does to a giant car company.

what if, during break in, a lot more metal and other contaminates are generated. it would seem they would have to have done significant research and engineering to determine that 1200 miles maximizes the break in process while minimizing additional wear.

if someone told you to stay in the sun for 30 minutes and come in for a break, but you blew it off and stayed for 60+ minutes, whose fault is it that you got burned?

why would dropping a car off at a service center for a day or so be a safety issue or undue burden? Is it any more dangerous or a burden than driving the car to the grocery store, the office, or anywhere else?

How much lawyer time and cost is it worth to fight it? how many people on this forum have pockets deep enough that BMW would consider capitulating? my guess is it would cost far more to litigate this than deal with out of pocket expenses at a decent indy repair shop.

BMW makes the rules, no one else. it is what it is.
Not a response I expected.

If an engine breaks due to a 1000 mile overage of a service, it is a crap engine with questionable lifespan.
Disregarding your sunburn reference for a moment, this is like equating to a couple more guys squeezing into a 15 person elevator and now it's OK to go down and crash?

Any engineer would tell you that safety margins will have to be set higher when dealing with humans as they rarely do what they are being told.

As for AMG at least I can say that the engines do not need that break-in. The break-in period is primarily for all other components...
Have done that many times; driven them hard (especially in Germany) and the cars were better for it.

Last edited by Wolfman64; 07-21-2020 at 06:10 PM..
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      07-21-2020, 06:10 PM   #83
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why are you guy arguing about this? This situation is VERY simple, and this problem is VERY avoidable.
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      07-22-2020, 12:26 PM   #84
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First I would research if the break in service is consistent globally. My gut is that this is now true (it did not used to be).

Second, if you choose to fight this legally BMW has to prove that the extra 1000 miles of usage caused the motor damage. What is the prevalence of metal shavings in the motor at the break in service on average? How much is caught in the filter or on the drain plug (I assume BMW uses magnetic drain plugs)? Is there scoring on the cams, bearings or in the cylinders?

I find it doubtful that BMW would win in court, but expensive to go through the process. Definitely lesson learned on the break in service going forward though.
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      07-22-2020, 01:06 PM   #85
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As other mentioned already by others, decent lawyer will win the case. Excellent lawyer will rip them off.

1. Bmw honored warranty all the way till 4700 miles, they didn't refuse right away.
That's where they made first mistake.

2. Bmw will have to prove that going 2200 miles on factory oil caused catastrophic damage to engine, from mechanical standpoint is complete BS.
Easy win in the court, just it will take time.
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      07-22-2020, 06:23 PM   #86
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lol so typical to get litigious.. of course.. that will solve everything..
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      07-22-2020, 06:26 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
First I would research if the break in service is consistent globally. My gut is that this is now true (it did not used to be).

Second, if you choose to fight this legally BMW has to prove that the extra 1000 miles of usage caused the motor damage. What is the prevalence of metal shavings in the motor at the break in service on average? How much is caught in the filter or on the drain plug (I assume BMW uses magnetic drain plugs)? Is there scoring on the cams, bearings or in the cylinders?

I find it doubtful that BMW would win in court, but expensive to go through the process. Definitely lesson learned on the break in service going forward though.
BMW war-chest outweighs any individual owner and you can bet they would spend the farm to win the issue. Too expensive for any individual owner to litigate against them.

The expert testimony and testing alone required to prove the case would be more than the value of the individual claim.

Last edited by Lawguy; 07-22-2020 at 07:35 PM..
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      07-23-2020, 06:06 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHunk View Post
As other mentioned already by others, decent lawyer will win the case. Excellent lawyer will rip them off.

1. Bmw honored warranty all the way till 4700 miles, they didn't refuse right away.
That's where they made first mistake.

2. Bmw will have to prove that going 2200 miles on factory oil caused catastrophic damage to engine, from mechanical standpoint is complete BS.
Easy win in the court, just it will take time.
I seriously doubt it. The OP didn’t perform the required break-in service. Engine failed. End of story.
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