[Robotechnology]

I am a staunch manual transmission supporter and all 3 new cars I have purchased have been BMW cars and have been manual (I know manufacturers don’t care about used purchases so I am not going to mention the multiple dozen of those). Between last year and this year i have put about 1,000 miles on M2 & M3 M-DCT competition models and you know what? I finally get it. Needed to give it a fair shake which at this point I have. M-DCT’s are faster and get better highway mpg at the cost of a little bit of driver involvement (manual paddle shifting lessens the difference in involvement though).

Anyways, I am TRULY disapointed in BMW’s decison to put conventional automatic transmissions in M cars. I have always thought of the price premium of an M to stem from 4 differences vs. the non M model each one is based on:

Engine
TRANSMISSION
Suspension
Brakes

So now to go along with the aproximate 25% M price premium, we now only get 3 of the 4 things that make BMW models an M (in my opinion).

So now with the change over to ZF automatics with torque convertors, I feel the M brand is cheapened (literally and figuratively). The thing is, I hear no noise being generated about this. Why does no one communicate with BMW and automotive publications and say HEY! I want dual clutch technology in my M5/M8... that why we pay big bucks for them and is huge part of the reason of why we don't purchase M550/M850 models?

Am I the only one that thinks like this? I am so tired of hearing the ZF transmission is so smooth I want to hear BMW’s dual clutch version is on par with or even superior to Porsche’s PDK. Not that a ZF has software changes and is strengthened over a regular grocery getter vehicle transmission

Rant over I guess but, unless BMW goes back to supporting purpose built performance oriented transmissions, I guess I have already purchased my final new BMW.

PS Same goes for the upcoming Corvette and the Supra (and any other manufacturer that pulls the same crap). I was SO looking forward to the new Supra. Light at the end of the tunnel for the Vette though as I hear a Dual Clutch is now in development for it

[dardeca]

Have you driven the F90 M5? I had an E92 M3 with a DCT and I cannot tell the difference in shift speeds between the ZF auto transmission in the F90 M5 and the DCT. It is lightning fast.

While the F90 has an automatic transmission, it is nothing like the standard auto transmission you'd find in the non M models.

[Elanderholm]

The dct in my f10 M5 was a worse transmission than the auto in my f90. The dct wasn’t smoother or faster shifting. Neither is a true manual, rowing your own, so who cares? Weird post. Have you even driven an f90 m5 vs f10 m5 to see if you cAn even tell the difference? I’d rather my transmission handle more power, reliably.

[windtendo]

Sounds like you should just wait for the Vette then.

[JDC PDX]

I had an F80 M3 with DCT and absolutely hated that transmission. I sold the car after 4 months of ownership. I just purchased my M5 Comp on Tuesday and only considered it because it didn't have the DCT.

[m630]

Of course its brand dilution and the decline of driver focused cars. Who cares if the new M5 can shift faster with the ZF? Its not like you are racing a luxobarge as a career? Any enthusiast on the street would gladly sacrifice the .1 sec shift time between dct and zf, its ridiculous to suggest other wise.
While I actually preferred SMG to dct if an MT was not to be offered, there is just no comparison to the feeling those transmissions provide when you get to feel the engine and gears vs a zf slushbox in an M.
Yes its mass appeal, but no its not motorsport.

[Efthreeoh]

Zzzzzzzzz

[Greer]

To OP: You need to take an extended drive with the 2019 M5 Comp with the automatic transmission and I bet you would change your mind.

[av.7447]

Sorry to say this, but the new Porsches are automatic 😅. The DCT/PDK is an old, dying tech which is just not as good as the new auto! We needed those DCT’s temporary until engineers can figure out how to make auto transmissions
to work and shift fast! Before you complain more, go and drive the new M5! I never thought that DCT can replace the manual! It cant and no auto transmission will ever be able to replace the manual for me! 3 pedals is just a different kind of fun and I can care less that it’s slower and gets worse gas mileage! For example, I will never order a 911 or similar car with 2 pedals.. That new Supra/BMW is a complete disaster for me!

[Nikolov]

I completely agree with you OP. I've test driven two F90s and I absolutely hate the torque converter. You don't feel any connection to the drivetrain and with a torque converter you essentially aren't directly connected.

I love the DCT in my F10. I'm used to shifting manually from the SMG in the E60 and I absolutely always drive my F10 in manual mode. As someone above very well put it, the DCT gave some motorsport feeling to the F10, even if it was a boat. The F90 feels like a souped up 550i

Yet, I'm picking up my F90 next week, because you know.. traction. My F10 is pushing 650whp and I have no traction up until 3rd/4th gear depending on road conditions. I'm sure I'll get used to the F90, there's definitely a lot of improvements compared to the F10, but I'll never say a good thing about a torque converter transmission.

[somer]

Originally Posted by Nikolov

I completely agree with you OP. I've test driven two F90s and I absolutely hate the torque converter. You don't feel any connection to the drivetrain and with a torque converter you essentially aren't directly connected.

I love the DCT in my F10. I'm used to shifting manually from the SMG in the E60 and I absolutely always drive my F10 in manual mode. As someone above very well put it, the DCT gave some motorsport feeling to the F10, even if it was a boat. The F90 feels like a souped up 550i

Yet, I'm picking up my F90 next week, because you know.. traction. My F10 is pushing 650whp and I have no traction up until 3rd/4th gear depending on road conditions. I'm sure I'll get used to the F90, there's definitely a lot of improvements compared to the F10, but I'll never say a good thing about a torque converter transmission.

Pretty much same situation here, will end up in a LCI F90 but also don't like the transmission at all. I've test driven the car now 3 times, and it will be a 4th when the M-Town Tour comes to my town at the end of the month. The bog down the car has when shifting gears is so apparent to me coming directly out of a DCT, the whole car bucks just like a RS7 on gear changes. Also the way redline is handled with it just holding RPM and the fact you have to pull the shift paddle so early considering its just a slushbox and the ratios are so close just annoys me.

I absolutely adore the transmission in the F10. For anyone that only has driven the M-DCT in the F80 the M5/M6 have completely different software programming and the shifts feel much more crisp and faster. This may sound really snobby/elitist but most of the people who don't like the M-DCT were people who drove them in automatic mode, I'm not sure I've driven more than 100 miles of the 70k on my car in automatic mode, manual mode in S2 or S3 is the only way to go.

I think it said alot about BMW M division when the head boss Albert Biermann left BMW for Kia when they axed the DCT from the F90.

[kyrix1st]

I can assure you the guys here saying ZFat shifts as fast as M DCT have never driven M DCT at a track or driven hard enough to overheat the torque converter.

It is by far the worst transmission in terms of driver involvement in that it isn’t as fast or half as direct as the DCT. Why change the winning formula other than cost/to please complainers who can’t be bothered to shift using paddles or shift knob? These are the people who will leave for AMG or Audi if they came up with a more comfy transmission.

It is a perfect car for those who came from driving creeping autos. Best performance when left in auto mode.

[windtendo]

Y’all are seriously talking about “driver involvement” in a nearly 4400 lbs luxury sports sedan???

[JDC PDX]

Originally Posted by windtendo

Y’all are seriously talking about “driver involvement” in a nearly 4400 lbs luxury sports sedan???

This.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by JDC PDX

This.

Yeah we have gone on this type of discussion before, frankly if M5 is designed by people in this forum, it would have a V10, 3500 pounds, MT, 2WD, size of E39, and etc.

But it is obvious that hardcore enthusiasts is a tiny portion of the market. Just look at how Audi, Porsche, and Merc have evolved with their sports sedan, they have gone heavier and more luxurious with each generation. Probably only 5% of F10 owner love the speed of DCT while 95% of the owner probably complained to BMW what's wrong with the tranny? Why is it so jerky?

[Elanderholm]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Yeah we have gone on this type of discussion before, frankly if M5 is designed by people in this forum, it would have a V10, 3500 pounds, MT, 2WD, size of E39, and etc.

But it is obvious that hardcore enthusiasts is a tiny portion of the market. Just look at how Audi, Porsche, and Merc have evolved with their sports sedan, they have gone heavier and more luxurious with each generation. Probably only 5% of F10 owner love the speed of DCT while 95% of the owner probably complained to BMW what's wrong with the tranny? Why is it so jerky?

It was jerky and didn’t perform any better. It’s not a racing transmission in any sense. This is not a racing car, so an auto makes way more sense. It’s lighter and performs as well or better, so...a dct not being smooth isn’t a positive. It didn’t add to the driving experience or reliability or weight and was less smooth. Seems like an obvious choice to go with the auto.

[mundo74]

shift speeds are only part of the story. even if the auto shifted as fast the converter robs any driveline feel especially when coasting down even though it should be locked. drove a few f90s and still think the transmission is a downgrade.

at least Corvette had the decency to build a dct ground up instead of running to the available autos. must be something about the dct why ford and vette are sticking to it for their upper performance models.

I think the f90 will not be fondly remembered years to come as it will be hardly distinguishable from the more garden variety m550 and 550s.

[A Need For Speed]

Originally Posted by mundo74

I think the f90 will not be fondly remembered years to come as it will be hardly distinguishable from the more garden variety m550 and 550s.

Hilarious. I know I will fondly remember mine. lol I can't think of more different cars to drive. The first 4 wheel drive M5 is night and day different from either 550. Close to 700 horsepower tends to do that. The DCT of the F10 was cute but overall I found it a pain in the ass for daily driving. I am very happy with the current tranny and think it is an upgrade over the prior DCT. And btw what Chevy does in a car that is nothing similar to an M5 is irrelevant. You should keep your F10 and enjoy it but don't be surprised when my "forgettable" M5Comp smoothly blows by your ass.

[Hockeytyme]

Remember that the M5 is competing with the E63 and by going to all wheel drive they added a bunch of weight. One way to make the car quicker is by removing a few hundred pounds which was successfully done by going away from the DCT.

[brad850csi]

I'll drive an F92 M8 to see what it is like compared to my F13 M6 but the amount of X5M, F90 M5, M140i, M850i, X3 m40i and 650i I've driven with the zf8 is scaring me away at the moment.

[Nikolov]

Originally Posted by mundo74

shift speeds are only part of the story. even if the auto shifted as fast the converter robs any driveline feel especially when coasting down even though it should be locked. drove a few f90s and still think the transmission is a downgrade.

at least Corvette had the decency to build a dct ground up instead of running to the available autos. must be something about the dct why ford and vette are sticking to it for their upper performance models.

I think the f90 will not be fondly remembered years to come as it will be hardly distinguishable from the more garden variety m550 and 550s.

I completely agree with you, having put more than 7,000km on my F90 now. Most people here drive in D mode most/all of the time, so for them the ZF8 is an upgrade to the DCT For me, being used to drive in S3 all time time, the ZF8 is a massive let down.

[JCZ5]

For what the M5 is designed, a modern luxurious cruiser, the ZF8 fits perfectly for that purpose. I've tried both DCT and the new ZF8 and in "normal" driving, it is the same. Maybe on paper DCT is still faster, but can you feel it?

If you want more driver engagement, go with a M2 or Porsche. Car companies are segmenting vehicles for very different needs. No longer does the M line mean what it use to mean for all and that is not a bad thing, just revolution. After all, M5 sales have skyrocketed and as a business, M needs to sell as much car for people buying them. As oppose to a handful of us enthusiast, which is dwindling in number every year.