can someone please explain to me why aftermarket suspension...

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by confusion

... just because something subjectively feels better doesn't mean it actually performs better...

You nail the point exactly for anyone that drives their car on the street; track times and g-meters are frikken irrelevant, or haven't you ever taken your car for a fun drive? Subjectivity is the only thing that matters on the street. If the owner is happy, then it's a complete success, period.

[menotakoala]

For me, the only suspension company I will plan on using is maybe AC Schnitzer and Alpina. If they do not come out with anything for the 135i, I won't bother. With the amount of time that BMW spends on the Nurburgring for their R&D on suspension, I personally feel that other aftermarket manufacturers can't really do much to really improve the handling. (Again this is all on my own personal feeling).

[larryn]

Menotakoala, I agree with you if you never plan to track your car, or are not that serious about it. Btw, Schnitzer and Alpina are not known for their suspension tuning.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by menotakoala

For me, the only suspension company I will plan on using is maybe AC Schnitzer and Alpina. If they do not come out with anything for the 135i, I won't bother. With the amount of time that BMW spends on the Nurburgring for their R&D on suspension, I personally feel that other aftermarket manufacturers can't really do much to really improve the handling. (Again this is all on my own personal feeling).

Hopefully, you are talking about "handling" in terms of a "street" setup...rather than for the track....which is what this thread was about...

But in case you weren't...

You're right, you should tell all the guys in every BMW being tracked in a competitive series everywhere in the world that they'd be better off leaving the stock suspension on.

Bilstein can't get it right, but Alpina using Bilstein hardware can.


Sorry if that's coming off strong, but I can't help but wonder if you've put any thought into that opinion?


P.S. As I'm sure you've read in every review of the 135, the handling from the factory is far from desirable, at least from a performance standpoint. <-- So if you know that to be true, how could you think it can't be improved?

They put understeer into these cars to make them safe, their setups are FAR from ideal...

[menotakoala]

Originally Posted by larryn

Menotakoala, I agree with you if you never plan to track your car, or are not that serious about it. Btw, Schnitzer and Alpina are not known for their suspension tuning.

Larryn, yup. I don't have any plans to track this baby.

[confusion]

Originally Posted by Evolved

PrematureApex summed it for for me. Any properly set up aftermarket suspension will perform better than OEM, period.

the point is, what makes you, me, or everyone else that contemplates purchasing an aftermarket suspension qualified to take advantage of the hardware? just because the hardware CAN perform better doesn't mean that you know how to make it do so...

this quote really describes what i'm talking about:

The majority of enthusiasts want a low ride height to fill the ugly gap in their stock wheel wells. They also won't accept a ride that, for the most part, is a lot harsher than stock. Macho or not, most enthusiasts don't drive hard enough or well enough to realize that their cars actually handle worse than stock, mistaking reduced roll for better handling.

take from: http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/te..._geometry.html

great series of articles, btw. :P

[mikeo]

Having taken an E36 M3 through suspension changes from stock, to H&R OE Sport springs with Koni single adjustables, adding adjustable camber plates and UUC Swaybarbarians, and finally to Ground Control coilovers (440lb front - 550lb rear) with Koni double adjustables, I can assure you there were incremental handling improvements with each properly adjusted change.

My credentials are three consecutive SCCA Solo Regional and Divisional Class Championships with that very car.

[confusion]

Originally Posted by mikeo

Having taken an E36 M3 through suspension changes from stock, to H&R OE Sport springs with Koni single adjustables, adding adjustable camber plates and UUC Swaybarbarians, and finally to Ground Control coilovers (440lb front - 550lb rear) with Koni double adjustables, I can assure you there were incremental handling improvements with each properly adjusted change.

My credentials are three consecutive SCCA Solo Regional and Divisional Class Championships with that very car.

mikeo, i think it's pretty obvious that you're qualified. for the rest of us, there are those that realize we aren't and those that don't. it's great to have people like yourself bringing the rest of us up. thanks for participating.

[mikeo]

I'm happy to share any knowledge that I may have gained over the years. And there is really a huge body of information to draw from freely offered by many that have been through this long before most of us.

I look forward with great anticipation to the challenges offered by the 1 series cars. I have a feeling they will be extremely enjoyable, either stock or modified.

[sethchan]

Originally Posted by confusion

this is an honest question that i've thought a decent amount about and i simply cannot come up w/ a good answer. besides the ability to lower your car (admittedly awesome), why do people immediately replace the suspension on their new car (doing the work themselves) and then claim how much better it rides? i'm not debating that an aftermarket suspension can't be a whole heck of a lot better than stock (kw v2 looks like a sweet option!), but what i'm thorougly confused by is that people actually think that merely installing new hardware makes their car ride better. what about the countless hours of track time, dollars in r&d, and insightful knowledge from professional race car drivers given directly to engineers w/ years and years of experience? at what point does spending $2k on a suspension and installing it in a day in your own garage w/ a buddy and a six pack make your car so elite that it is instantly, and undeniably better than the oem setup?

can anyone really explain this to me? i understand the feeling of pride in doing it yourself but i simply do not understand this arrogance. this is not a simple butt dyno of throwing on a procede. i've yet to see lap times w/ track tested proof. people just think that their new setup is better and i don't get it. please help! i want to be a gifted personal race engineer, too!

Sorry, but it is. Obviously, every suspension set up is a compromise between contradictory factors, tightness, smoothness, stability, comfort, price, etc. Everyone has his or her own preference about how to balance these factors. There is no single solution that's perfect for everyone.

[ichiban]

Originally Posted by confusion

the point is, what makes you, me, or everyone else that contemplates purchasing an aftermarket suspension qualified to take advantage of the hardware? just because the hardware CAN perform better doesn't mean that you know how to make it do so...

So from what I've read. I think your statement should be pointed at a more specific person rather than stating everyone as a whole. Sure there are some out there that buys the first set of suspension that a tuner shop tells him is good. But for most of us, I think we do a little research before spending 1000 - 2000 (or more).

I for one have been through my fair share of suspension work and tweaking. Even though i have not had any track time, but i have had some Autox and spirited mountain driving on my hands. I can honestly say I do not regret upgrading my suspension as my first mod.

It gave the car a responsiveness that I loved and have continued to love. So when my Tein Flex blew, I got a set of Whiteline Group4s, and after a few adjustments found they were too soft for my liking and the only way to get whiteline competition springs installed and revalved was to send the unit back to aussie. I couldn't afford the down time so i sold my group4s for Ohline Sportlines with custom swift springs (12kgF/10kgR) revalved by cusco USA with Cusco adjustable rear camber plates.

So basically, i'm saying that most ppl with a head on their head will think things through before spending their hard earned cash. I think the ones that dont understand the value of money are the ones you should be directing your statement to.

just my 2 cents

[sethchan]

There isn't even a single best set-up for the track, since the ideal set-up would differ depending on the track and the weather conditions. So obviously, people's preferences would differ.

[MZWIE]

On my E34 and E46 I changed the suspension. Springs, sways, bushings, etc.

When the amount of body roll, dip and bounce are noticeably less, then I say that aftermarket is better.

Now for some theyj ust want a cushy "cadillac" type ride. For those I say get a 7 series.

On the occasion that I drive another E46 it is amazing how much different it feels.

From what I read the 1 is going to need some suspension work. I happen to be one of those that likes the car to feel like a go kart.

This is simply what I like, YMMV......

Very little suspension travel and no body roll.

[juniormint]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Subjectivity is the only thing that matters on the street. If the owner is happy, then it's a complete success, period.

That right their is why I have complete aftermarket suspension on my mini, because it is my car.

And yes you can get factory like tightness and fit with aftermarket parts you just have to use the correct parts, dont cheap out and take your time building it. Teflon tape or lock tight, grease and proper torque all help build a reliable suspension.

To me the suspension is one of my favorite parts because their is no real exact way to measure it, it is all built to the drivers style. What makes me faster around a track may make another person slower. I can adjust my car to how I want it and I think thats what I should be able to do given that I pay for it. Factory is nice but I want my own settings.

for the record my car has, PSS9 coilovers, Helix adjustable camber plates, 25mm three way adjustable rear sway, Ireland rear control arms, m7 understruts, Rota wheels, BFGoodrich rubber. And most important, months of continuous tweaking and testing of setting.

And that is enough to scare the piss out of some unsuspecting passengers and even those that expect it.

[mjovic]

OP's SN says it all. Confused.

[Advevo]

i am racing driver. I race bmw M3 GTR and 1 series widebody cars and i have 130i race car. Just for youre info.

I have tested many suspension other than stock. I tried to find the compromise. I never found one better than stock with eibach pro kit. Eibach kit is only for looks like the car to sit a little lower.

A compromise suspension kit is to soft on track if you compare it to a race car. And it s way to hard for daily driving. I have made a suspension setup for my 130i street car which you could dail into hard and soft. Soft was to hard for street use and hard was to soft for track use. So i stopped with aftermarket suspensions. I have my 135i on eibach sport springs added a little extra camber i have lots off fun on street en occasional trackday.

hard suspension setup is nice on trackcars

I also had a recaro race seat in my car. I have ditched that one too. Getting in and out of the car isn t that easy anymore and after time youre fed up with it.

so race seats are nice but in a race car you dont use everyday.

[bradford]

Originally Posted by Advevo

i am racing driver. I race bmw M3 GTR and 1 series widebody cars and i have 130i race car. Just for youre info.

I have tested many suspension other than stock. I tried to find the compromise. I never found one better than stock with eibach pro kit. Eibach kit is only for looks like the car to sit a little lower.

A compromise suspension kit is to soft on track if you compare it to a race car. And it s way to hard for daily driving. I have made a suspension setup for my 130i street car which you could dail into hard and soft. Soft was to hard for street use and hard was to soft for track use. So i stopped with aftermarket suspensions. I have my 135i on eibach sport springs added a little extra camber i have lots off fun on street en occasional trackday.

hard suspension setup is nice on trackcars

There are a lot of aftermarket suspension kits with much stiffer springs that ride significantly BETTER than stock on the street. However, they're very expensive ($4k+). Kits from Penske/Ohlins/Moton with remote reservoirs and hi/lo variable compression dampening react far quicker to things like potholes and expansion joints than the inexpensive stock shocks ever could, due to dual hydraulic circuits in the shock internals.

Of course, if you're comparing brands like Bilstein and Koni, it's going to be very unlikely that you're not going to suffer a ride quality penalty when searching for better performance.

[ichiban]

but with those high end external reservoir coilovers, the upkeep is horrendous. You would have to change the oil and seals quite often compared to stock suspension. And just doing something like that costs a lot of money (usually around 200 - 400 per strut). so i think it's not ideal to go that high up for your daily driver. In my experience, coilovers with a helper spring such as the whiteline group4 for my suby felt a lot better than my stock suspension and lowered my car.

Just my 2 cents.

[bradford]

Originally Posted by ichiban

but with those high end external reservoir coilovers, the upkeep is horrendous. You would have to change the oil and seals quite often compared to stock suspension. And just doing something like that costs a lot of money (usually around 200 - 400 per strut). so i think it's not ideal to go that high up for your daily driver. In my experience, coilovers with a helper spring such as the whiteline group4 for my suby felt a lot better than my stock suspension and lowered my car.

Just my 2 cents.

I have not heard anything of any issues related to reliability on any of the quality remote reservoir systems, either on the net nor from any of my friends with such systems.

Do you have a link?

[CTB]

Originally Posted by TGrits10

Also, don't forget the all-important psychological factor. Even if it weren't true, we'd convince ourselves that our money hasn't been wasted.

This is the biggest reason right here! DING! Also, "better" is subjective. Some people like unyielding, harsh ride and call that "better." Others prefer the ability to soak up imperfections, round-off edges, and yet still offer a nicely-balanced handling setup. Some like the bigger window of recovery that a softer setup provides; others like the knife-edge, now-you-have-it now-you-don't of a very stiff, track-based setup. All personal taste, and of course BMW (and all manufacturers) pick where they want to be to satisfy the biggest percentage of customers. That makes the most money, and there you go.

I have extensive suspension tuning experience, and I just laugh at the assumptions that some super-stiff coil-over setup that ate up 2" of wheel travel will ride "better" than the honed-over-years-of-development setup that BMW is offering, esp for the given price that those OEM parts cost. I also laugh that the assumption is that it will handle better; unless you know where you have put the car in its kinematic behavior, you might have really screwed something up by lowering it so far. "Handling" is a lot more than just lateral g's on a skidpad. Perhaps now you have roll-oversteer because you flipped the tie-rod angle when you lowered it so much. Now you have a darty car in extreme situations, and that's not an improvement. Maybe you changed the roll center heights and/or the roll axis inclination in a way that makes the handling worse. Etc. It was also mentioned above that you could spend tons of money and get better components, but shock tuning is an abstract art that takes much interation to get what you want. You can't just slap on shocks that have 20% more damping across the speed range in both rebound and compression and say "there, that's better." You need to tune the speed ranges to find the optimal setup. Many of the aftermarket companies do minimal development work, and you pay for that with a harsher ride in many cases.

Anyway, I'm rambling.

[Yoot1]

Originally Posted by CTB

Anyway, I'm rambling.

I'd say you are exactly right.

[Boosted_N54]

i have a Mercedes C230k. coupe and my stock susspension was BAD, not a car for sharp turns or anything. BUT to make this into a super handling car i have installed AMG front & rear sway bars,
Bilstein pss9 coilovers, a camber kit + 18x9.5R and 18x8.5F
Brabus rims. and let me tell you THIS CAR NOW CAN OUT HANDLE ANYTHING THAT COMES IN ITS WAY... i can go 120mph and not even feel it, i once was racing a m3 on a good sharp turn and when he was entering the turn at 50mph i was entering it at 80+ you have NO IDEA how this car handles this is like a
roller coaster were it cant get off it rails. i do not have any body roll and i have KILLED the oversteer and understeer
as hard as i push the car in a turn it does'nt want to understeer or oversteer it just sticks and sticks in its lane. Now the ride quality on the car is not as my OEM setup was. it is not as soft.
it feels more hard but not to crazy hard only if i will hit a pothole or a bump, iswere i would feel it more then my OEM setup but i feel bad who ever sits in the back seats cuz you feel the bumps there alot more then in the front seats . i also feel the my ride is alot more conected to the road.