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      03-23-2018, 10:11 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
Airflow on modern cars is highly optimized, especially on a turbo car. I know of one particular sports car that would not survive the OEM's track durability requirement with the grill badge logo in place, so they removed it in production for additional cooling air and it passed. Pulling that much power to protect the engine is definitely within the realm of possibility in an extreme situation like this.




I mean, look at the dyno chart. The torque peaks really low and drops sharply after 3000rpm. No torque at high rpm means the peak power will be low. There is clearly something going on with that car or test procedure. Either the car isn't working right or something in the ECU is pulling power because its on a dyno.

Are the reported numbers corrected in any way? If it was cold and rainy, they the numbers would likely be corrected down. I believe the F80's ECU corrects for atmospheric conditions itself though to guarantee rated power under all conditions (I would assume the F90's would do the same). So if the ECU is correcting the power level and the dyno operator applies another correction factor, the final number will over-corrected downward.
The Z28 Camaro is the car I'm guessing you are writing about.

I think your second point is the bigger issue; I have spotted multiple issues with the results from this test - the biggest question, beyond the WHP/WTQ swap power wise is how are these dyno's configured. I have been fortunate to have my Tuners remove correction factor - at least as much as possible - it creates too many final number issues.

In the end a dyno is only a tool - measuring before and after - but I just don't think this test is correct for many reasons. Is it because there is in fact a lock-out? Maybe - but then the torque numbers will be astronomical if that is the case once it is unlocked.

OP has not responded to this - so that doesn't help.
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      03-23-2018, 10:12 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by 135iDCT View Post
Marketing!
So they are fake? Lol.
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      03-23-2018, 10:22 PM   #91
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Marketing!
And here come the moronic posts starting to flow in...
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      03-23-2018, 10:43 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Hill Country F90 View Post
And here come the moronic posts starting to flow in...

Cut him some slack... only has enough brain power to afford a 135
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      03-23-2018, 10:55 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoM3z View Post
Complete your break-in period and complete your first service, then do another dyno session. My F10 M5 and M4 did not produce full power until my break-in service was completed.
Honest question... can you prove that? There's a lot of speculation on these forums, but no one has actually proven that their car was making lower power before their first service. I'm not choosing sides, I just want someone to prove it, one way or the other.
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      03-23-2018, 11:04 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by M2 Alex View Post
Honest question... can you prove that? There's a lot of speculation on these forums, but no one has actually proven that their car was making lower power before their first service. I'm not choosing sides, I just want someone to prove it, one way or the other.
not until you change your avatar
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      03-23-2018, 11:17 PM   #95
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These are two completely useless dyno graphs. What happens below 3400 RPM is relevant as well... .

Newbie dyno operator? Take it somewhere that knows how to properly set up a car (including fanning it and dyno calibration) and do a complete pull, then you'll have a dyno chart that has any relevance. This is garbage.

Oh, and the crap about the Mustang being the "best dyno in the world...". Uh, no. Maha, DD, Mustang... they all have their place and provide different results. Mustangs are absolutely not the benchmark though.
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      03-23-2018, 11:27 PM   #96
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why would the dyno operator start the pull at 3300rpm?? and these numbers seem low even for a mustang dyno.. as stated before this is garbage
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      03-23-2018, 11:31 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by m3less View Post
why would the dyno operator start the pull at 3300rpm?? and these numbers seem low even for a mustang dyno.. as stated before this is garbage
Yes - as I have commented - multiple issues with this pull. I have asked some of the most basic questions and there has been no response from the OP. That said - I am not trying to tear down the OP - it's great they are least attempting to dyno the car - but the information coming from it seems to be significantly off - and the expertise not at the highest level.
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      03-23-2018, 11:59 PM   #98
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These dyno runs are garbage due to obvious reasons mentioned by many others and it's not even worth arguing about it. However, I definitely don't believe the car makes more power after the break-in sevice, total BS in my opinion. Whoever claims this, please also provide your basis aside from your butt dyno.
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      03-24-2018, 12:08 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2 Alex View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoM3z View Post
Complete your break-in period and complete your first service, then do another dyno session. My F10 M5 and M4 did not produce full power until my break-in service was completed.
Honest question... can you prove that? There's a lot of speculation on these forums, but no one has actually proven that their car was making lower power before their first service. I'm not choosing sides, I just want someone to prove it, one way or the other.
I don't need to, that's beauty about the search function in this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M2 Alex View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoM3z View Post
Complete your break-in period and complete your first service, then do another dyno session. My F10 M5 and M4 did not produce full power until my break-in service was completed.
Honest question... can you prove that? There's a lot of speculation on these forums, but no one has actually proven that their car was making lower power before their first service. I'm not choosing sides, I just want someone to prove it, one way or the other.
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      03-24-2018, 12:39 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Brake_Late View Post
My boy ! Is that your new ride Bro ?
yeah bud, been working all day on the aero, we are planning to have it on for bimmerfest may 26th.
going to ecfest in 6 hours, death tired. I hope I have some good pics to post.
any one else going? who has new f90m5.
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      03-24-2018, 01:48 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoM3z View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M2 Alex View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoM3z View Post
Complete your break-in period and complete your first service, then do another dyno session. My F10 M5 and M4 did not produce full power until my break-in service was completed.
Honest question... can you prove that? There's a lot of speculation on these forums, but no one has actually proven that their car was making lower power before their first service. I'm not choosing sides, I just want someone to prove it, one way or the other.
I don't need to, that's beauty about the search function in this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M2 Alex View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoM3z View Post
Complete your break-in period and complete your first service, then do another dyno session. My F10 M5 and M4 did not produce full power until my break-in service was completed.
Honest question... can you prove that? There's a lot of speculation on these forums, but no one has actually proven that their car was making lower power before their first service. I'm not choosing sides, I just want someone to prove it, one way or the other.
Yeah, but for the M5 it was pretty much agreed that it's BS on that theory.

I don't own M4 so don't visit there much but I doubt the de-tune theory applies there as well.
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      03-24-2018, 07:07 AM   #102
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It would make sense a new car would be slightly down on power.

Every BMW I've driven gets significantly better fuel economy after a couple thousand miles. Things need to wear in - rings, bearings, anything rotating against a seal, springs, etc. Then there's a transmission and diff too. And it's all expanding and contracting under heat/cool cycles.

Then the block needs to be "seasoned" and exposed to lubricants, heated and cooled.

Hence the reason for the break in service and driving recommendation which, if you did an oil analysis, would have high content of metals from the rings, bearing and various surfaces.
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      03-24-2018, 07:59 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DINMANN View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brake_Late View Post
My boy ! Is that your new ride Bro ?
yeah bud, been working all day on the aero, we are planning to have it on for bimmerfest may 26th.
going to ecfest in 6 hours, death tired. I hope I have some good pics to post.
any one else going? who has new f90m5.
bimmergirl just grabbed one I think no ?
Snap rocks blue with Bev Hills BMW plates ?
Isn't she not far down the road from you in Pomona area I think ... and she's HOT as heck too !

How you feeling tho bro. Any better ?
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      03-24-2018, 08:00 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImGoingPlaces View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M2 Alex View Post
Honest question... can you prove that? There's a lot of speculation on these forums, but no one has actually proven that their car was making lower power before their first service. I'm not choosing sides, I just want someone to prove it, one way or the other.
not until you change your avatar
LOOL
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      03-24-2018, 08:01 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickburn7 View Post
Seems pretty low when the E63s is making 575 to 585 HP at the wheels
Then wait for COMP PKG to come out
Since they don't make an M5"s"
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      03-24-2018, 08:03 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by ilushka85 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hill Country F90 View Post
And here come the moronic posts starting to flow in...

Cut him some slack... only has enough brain power to afford a 135
this to is a moronic post.
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      03-24-2018, 08:54 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
These dyno runs are garbage due to obvious reasons mentioned by many others and it's not even worth arguing about it. However, I definitely don't believe the car makes more power after the break-in sevice, total BS in my opinion. Whoever claims this, please also provide your basis aside from your butt dyno.
Yep. Like the F80/82, break in service likely only ups the speed limiter and unlocks launch control.
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      03-24-2018, 09:33 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by vtknight View Post
This is true - but unless it was very hot - where these tests took or they are hot from multiple pulls - I don't see it pulling that much timing for a 470 WHP pull. I don't agree with the 12% difference - again it is how the dyno is configured - but if you are right - that is a 526 WHP pull on a Dynojet and with 15% drivetrain loss - about 618 HP - which would work.

It still doesn't explain why WTQ is showing higher than WHP overall though - as the 509 WTQ with the same 12% conversion to Dynojet and the 15% drivetrain loss is 670 lb ft.
An example from my own personal experience: we had an F10 M5 in for dyno test at the shop where I work and it was making WEAK numbers, I don't recall exactly but it was something like 50hp down on any other stock F10 M5 we had tested and this one was bone stock as well. It had zero fault codes but when we checked the reservoir for its turbo / intercooler circuit, it was a little low. We added a small amount of coolant to top it up and I thought FOR SURE this would make zero difference since it was such a small amount of coolant AND it was not low enough to trigger a low coolant warning. That was all that was wrong with the car and it suddenly picked up all the power that had been missing. I think most people would be dead shocked at what kinds of tiny things can make these cars pull back power to protect themselves especially since a lot of these triggers don't result in any kind of warning to the driver.

An engine bay with zero airflow going through it will heat up very quickly at full throttle, it makes sense that a car in this environment would make a ton of torque at lower RPM but start to pull timing and even reduce boost targets as the run progresses so that it's making less torque (and HP since HP is a calculation based on torque) at the high end. If that is what's going on, it makes sense that it would make an impressive amount of torque but a comparatively weak amount of horsepower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoosTonian View Post
this to is a moronic post.
I hope he was trolling, of all the BMWs I've had I have to say my 135i was probably my favorite overall. Such an insanely great bargain and endlessly fun to drive!
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      03-24-2018, 10:05 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
An example from my own personal experience: we had an F10 M5 in for dyno test at the shop where I work and it was making WEAK numbers, I don't recall exactly but it was something like 50hp down on any other stock F10 M5 we had tested and this one was bone stock as well. It had zero fault codes but when we checked the reservoir for its turbo / intercooler circuit, it was a little low. We added a small amount of coolant to top it up and I thought FOR SURE this would make zero difference since it was such a small amount of coolant AND it was not low enough to trigger a low coolant warning. That was all that was wrong with the car and it suddenly picked up all the power that had been missing. I think most people would be dead shocked at what kinds of tiny things can make these cars pull back power to protect themselves especially since a lot of these triggers don't result in any kind of warning to the driver.

An engine bay with zero airflow going through it will heat up very quickly at full throttle, it makes sense that a car in this environment would make a ton of torque at lower RPM but start to pull timing and even reduce boost targets as the run progresses so that it's making less torque (and HP since HP is a calculation based on torque) at the high end. If that is what's going on, it makes sense that it would make an impressive amount of torque but a comparatively weak amount of horsepower.



I hope he was trolling, of all the BMWs I've had I have to say my 135i was probably my favorite overall. Such an insanely great bargain and endlessly fun to drive!
To address your first point - we were talking about having fans as a part of the test - not coolant - which is massively important in comparison. Intercoolers are what keep the charge cool - internally - IC charge temps - versus the outside ambient temps. That is critical to the ECU and would definitely have a major impact on pulls.

That said - no having the fans as a part of the test doesn't help that is for sure -again depending on my point - how hot was it in the testing area?

I heartily agree with you that IC fluids and other setup variables can have a significant affect on a test. From what I am seeing with THIS test however - is at least a combination of config/setup/procedural dyno testing issues AND maybe/likely other points that you bring up.

As something is VERY odd and off about them.
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      03-24-2018, 12:24 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtknight View Post
To address your first point - we were talking about having fans as a part of the test - not coolant - which is massively important in comparison. Intercoolers are what keep the charge cool - internally - IC charge temps - versus the outside ambient temps. That is critical to the ECU and would definitely have a major impact on pulls.

That said - no having the fans as a part of the test doesn't help that is for sure -again depending on my point - how hot was it in the testing area?

I heartily agree with you that IC fluids and other setup variables can have a significant affect on a test. From what I am seeing with THIS test however - is at least a combination of config/setup/procedural dyno testing issues AND maybe/likely other points that you bring up.

As something is VERY odd and off about them.
I just noticed the original post does mention two fans in front of the car. I can't see them in the pics so maybe they are the small ones most dyno shops have, including the one I work at. I'm not trying to throw shade at this shop, my own shop's fans don't move enough air either and we can see that in the differences between logs on dyno and on the road.

Long story short: don't worry about the M5's power curve, it's clearly hauling some serious ass out in the real world!
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