[infamousq]

Originally Posted by Jeffe

Let's call it what it is. This will be an amazing 4 door missile. Definitely less widow-maker and fun than previous gens, but it'll be a stupid fast with great technology.

8 speed auto is lame, I don't care how great they say it is. I will knock it because I have tried it, my dodge truck was an 8 speed auto. The previous DCT was amazing and I actually appreciated the ever so slight jerkiness in first gear. Not a fan of this new decision. Hopefully this is something that changes.

As a guy who loves all things manual trans, I'm obviously bummed it's gone, but I think most reasonable people saw this coming. I get it, it makes sense.

*sigh* I looked at the reveal this week and honestly didn't even care. I miss the old days. At this point, I want the cars from yesteryear. If BMW is going to numb the car this much at least give us the wagon version in the states!

You are seriously comparing a Dodge truck transmission to a BMW M "tuned" 8 speed auto? I agree, I wish we would get a wagon which has me considering a AMG, but I will try it before I knock it.

[michal12]

BTW why is it labelled F90 when the 5 series gen is G30?

[infamousq]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Nah, I think you will beat me to it. I honestly don't see my self getting one until the LCI comes out with the Competition Package, or about 5-7 years from now, which ever comes first I guess. That's if I get it at all. I have other car projects planned that I'd rather spend money on than another M5. The F10 is all I need for now, as I still don't even have a family to put into my family sedan. Lol!

I agree like the F10 I will wait for the LCI if I do get the car. Right now I am really wondering if the car we see in the pic's "Euro spec" is what we will get here in the states. They drop the Digital dash and the "standard LED" from the US spec's and gave us this trash dash and the standard lights. One thing I can not seem to accept is the mirrors...they are ugly. I think once my Lease is up on the F10 I may jump into the XM5 until the LCI comes out. Only time will tell.

[sean328]

Originally Posted by bclemans

Underwhelmed.
After all these rumors - with 600hp and not more.
Just 'fast enough' to take on Mercedes AMG E63S

Still can't touch the top Tesla

Comparing electric to gas is like comparing a digital watch to an analog one. A Rolex will never be as precise as an Apple Watch.... which one would you own?

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by michal12

BTW why is it labelled F90 when the 5 series gen is G30?

The series identifier in the past denoted which visual design proposal was chosen. It was decided to reverse this and reserve the series version identifier and apply it to the selection. F080 - F099 are M_Vehicle_35up on the Same Design Language Level.


I.e.:
F80 - M3 Sedan
F81 - M3 Touring

F82 - M4 Coupe
F83 - M4 Convertible

F85 - X5M
F86 - X6M

F87 - M2 Coupe

F90 - M5 Sedan
F91 - M5 Touring

[MParallel]

Originally Posted by vicslick146

Is it me or does each generation of M5 seem like we're getting less and less value, to the point where the F90 feels like a ripoff..? The M5 used to be... I dunno, special? We used to get bespoke engines and transmissions and suspensions... The E39 engine had 8 individual throttle bodies... The E60 was a freegin V-10 that revved to 8500 rpm! With the F-10, was disappointed the engine was largely sourced from the stock engine, but at least it had a high performance DCT tranny.... With the new M5, what the heck is the M-premium going towards exactly...? The profit margins for the F-90 must be through the roof.... Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the new car will be quick for sure, and I'm fully aware of that the sole purpose of any business is to make money, period. But as a long time m enthusiast and current F-10 driver, it's just a little sad I guess.....

I feel you.

Reason I am treasuring my old, and now 'slow', but mint E36 M3. Driving that just feel special with that bespoke gem of an engine.

[elitex]

Originally Posted by infamousq

You are seriously comparing a Dodge truck transmission to a BMW M "tuned" 8 speed auto? I agree, I wish we would get a wagon which has me considering a AMG, but I will try it before I knock it.

Lol, I was about to say the same thing. Not all 8 speed auto are same.

[elitex]

Just remember, lot of people complaining will probably end up buying one anyways.

I actually really like it. M5 was never meant to be a sports car and never was one.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by elitex

Lol, I was about to say the same thing. Not all 8 speed auto are same.

The transmission is only slightly more advanced mechanically above the already updated 8HPTU found in the F85/86, but that's where any comparisons cease. The Vehicle Network Integration through the Central Intelligence Control Module is being applied for the first time on a Planetary Box. Its a true game changer.

[mundo74]

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

But does the car really need a DCT? Honestly, the DCT was just something for people to gloat about at their local cars and coffee. It's not like the car will actually go visit a track anyway. At least not for 99% of M5 owners who drive them.

the m550 is there for the guys that dont do cars and coffee cause there is nothing really special about them. The f90m5 is now a jacked up version of the m550. there is nothing really special about it too save the awd which Audi and MB has been doing for years. using the same tranny as a 328i is lame for the mighty m5.

[SimSimma335]

Originally Posted by SteveChester

Have we got UK prices yet?

From Car Buzz...

"Unfortunately, the M5 will be priced as if it were fully loaded, with dealers asking for no less than ?117,900 ($139,224) when ordering opens up in September of 2017. Recently won the lottery? Then the M5 First Edition, which costs an extra ?19,500 ($23,026) over the base model may be of interest. Not like you could go wrong with either model."

[infamousq]

Originally Posted by elitex

Just remember, lot of people complaining will probably end up buying one anyways.

I actually really like it. M5 was never meant to be a sports car and never was one.

So true the F10 was received the same way. everybody was mad about the turbo's blah blah I will hold judgment until I drive the car.

[eau_rouge]

Originally Posted by vicslick146

Is it me or does each generation of M5 seem like we're getting less and less value, to the point where the F90 feels like a ripoff..? The M5 used to be... I dunno, special? We used to get bespoke engines and transmissions and suspensions... The E39 engine had 8 individual throttle bodies... The E60 was a freegin V-10 that revved to 8500 rpm! With the F-10, was disappointed the engine was largely sourced from the stock engine, but at least it had a high performance DCT tranny.... With the new M5, what the heck is the M-premium going towards exactly...? The profit margins for the F-90 must be through the roof.... Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the new car will be quick for sure, and I'm fully aware of that the sole purpose of any business is to make money, period. But as a long time m enthusiast and current F-10 driver, it's just a little sad I guess.....

Whats so great about the DCT?

M cars nowadays are about to go as fast as possible and use every technical possibility that there is. The F90 is both, as technically advanced as ever, and without a doubt the fastest ever.

So no hate from my side. I think its just stunning. If you want RWD, you can have it, if you want AWD, you can have that as well. The F90 can be as easy as a G30 530i or as wild as an F80. Of course I understand the "special" status that an E60 has with its V10. But sometimes I need a more comfy car that can do anything. The F90 is perfect for everything. If you want something naughty, raw and wild, get a Lotus or an E46 M3. Even the E60 was no sports car, just because it was raw doesnt mean it was good. It was not as reliable, not as fast and not as useful for the daily commute cause both, the engine and the transmission could be an absolute pain...so in the class of fast business saloons, I have to say that I love the capabilities of the F90!

[Jeffe]

Originally Posted by infamousq

You are seriously comparing a Dodge truck transmission to a BMW M "tuned" 8 speed auto? I agree, I wish we would get a wagon which has me considering a AMG, but I will try it before I knock it.

Silly comparison, I get it. But where I'm going with this is the fact that an American truck uses an 8 speed auto. Maybe the auto is amazing, who knows. But I don't see Porsche or Audi back tracking into the auto for their performance models. It just sounds like regression to me. The DCT was amazing and I'm so bummed it's going away. I'm even more scared for what the next gen m3/4 is going to show up with

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Law

One could make the same argument for individual throttle bodies and 8250 RPM redline.
Unless you're racing on a road course, ITBs and high-revs are just bragging rights, right?

I agree with the original comment to an extent.
There was something particularly special about the M-cars of yore.
In particular, the M5s of the past had concrete links to BMW's racing ventures at the time. The E28 & E34 M5s used handbuilt powerplants descended from the BMW M1 supercar. The E39 M5's engine found widespread use in motorsport racing, and the E60 M5's V10 masterpiece was a result of the trickle-down effect of BMW's participation in Formula 1.
If I wanted to give the S63 powered F10 and F90 a break, at least the M6 racecar technically uses an engine derived from the S63, so at least there's still a link.
The point is, the M5 (and M-cars in general) was always about pushing the limits of motorsport/racing technology into a sedan/saloon car. The side-effect was that you got a really fast saloon, but the DNA from motorsport came first.

Does any of that matter during the commute to work? Probably not, and that's probably why gradually M-cars are becoming more generic, because BMW knows it can get away with it.
Why spend more money and R&D if the consumer won't notice a difference and only cares about numbers?
It's the sad reality, but there's something honest and special when a BMW M product lives up to its name and heritage, even if few can appreciate it.

I just hope this torque converter nonsense doesn't come down to M2s and M3s. The future is bleak though as we've already allowed that AMG imitation on M5 and gave 'em excuse to drop DCT "because the torque is too much."

[Jason]

Promo including some M history.

[Jason]

Added clip comparing standard exhaust to optional upgraded M Sports Exhaust system.

[RPiM5]

After giving the new F90 M5 a deeper analysis and reading everything I can and watching all of the videos, I have compiled my own personal following list that I'd like to share with the community. If you don't want to read through the entire list, I will tell you now that my ultimate conclusion is that while the new F90 M5 is certainly a step forward in overall performance it is not enough to appeal to a previous F10 M5 owner like myself to be compelled to buy one right away, not like the F10 M5 was over E60 M5, and the same with the E60 M5 over the E39 M5.

Here's my list of praises and grievances:

What I like:

1. ///M xDrive System. There's just no getting around that these big heavy sports sedans need more traction with all the torque they are making. The fact that it can be switch from AWD to RWD is a great thing too and in keeping with the previous ///M philosophy of a RWD Sports car.

2. Weight reduction. Aluminum Hood, Carbon Fiber Roof, all Aluminum suspension components. These are all the the right moves and all things that made the F10 M5 so heavy. Still, there was much more room for improvement, such as aluminum doors for all 4 doors, carbon fiber trunk, carbon fiber drive shaft, etc... Even my 2017 Chevy Bolt EV has all aluminum hood and doors for crying out loud and man they are light too!

3. Front fascia design. It's definitely more aggressive than that of the F10. It will really differentiate in that regard.

4. ///M Side Grills. I was concerned that it wouldn't look good, but they did a good job here too. I still prefer the side turn signal indicators to be located on the fenders, but I guess I'm old school like that.

5. Front seats. They look fantastic and are probably very very comfortable. They did a good job making them look quite unique and bespoke.

6. The new red M1 and M2 buttons. The basic steering wheel was getting two cluttered with buttons and I think they came up with an innovative design to integrate the M1 and M2 buttons on the M5.

7. The exhaust flap control button. Finally, finally, finally!

8. Fins on rear diffuser. A lot of aftermarket diffuser makers go for this look and I think that M has now simply beat them at their own game by having this feature as stock. It looks good in my opinion.

9. Color choices. Snapper Rocks Blue will look awesome, as well as Frozen Marina Bay Blue and Rhodonite Silver.

10. Carbon Fiber Engine Plenum Cover. Finally a carbon fiber piece from the factory. I guess since they couldn't put a Carbon Fiber front strut brace in the M5 like they do on the F80 M3, they at least gave the M5 a nice looking plenum cover.

11. Options. Bowers and Wilkins will be fantastic and the new ///M HUD view is very cool. And did I read that correctly that the F90 M5 will come standard with all of the driving safety features such as Blind Spot Detection and stuff?

12. The new Aluminum Carbon Structure Trim. Finally a Carbon-like Trim available in the M5 from the beginning of a new M5 generation.


What I dislike:

1. Side view mirror design. It's like the copy and pasted the F80 M3 mirror design onto the new M5. They couldn't come up with any OTHER design??!

2. ZF8 Auto Transmission. I know that it will be a fine transmission but there's just no arguing against the shift times of the MDCT.

3. Rear Bumper Design. Those rear reflectors look kind of goofy. On the F10 M5 the rear bumper reflectors weren't an eye-sore, the ones on the F90 are.

4. Headlights touching the kidney grills. I know this is a basic G30 design thing, but I'm already over it after looking this design for years now on the F30 and G11.

5. Floating iDrive Screen. Looks out of place in the cockpit. I LOVE the F10 interior design where the screen is nice and flush with the dash. It just looks proper on the F10. In the G30/F90, it doesn't seem as well executed as even the F13 and F12 was.

6. Wheel Design. It looks OK to me, nothing that really excites me. I hate to say that I'm already looking forward to the Competition Package Wheel design which will be different.

7. Steering Wheel Design. Same basic steering wheel design as the G30 and the G11 for that matter. I know this happened on the F10 M5 as well for the 2013 Model Year, but why can't they introduce a bespoke steering wheel right from the beginning with every new generation of M5? Now we all know the Competition Package will have a better and more sportier steering wheel design in the future, which kind of frustrates me.

8. The entire F90 M5 lower center console design. It is essentially not bespoke to the M5. Yes the F90 M5 gets a different shift lever and they added a couple of extra buttons with nice red accents and all, but the overall design is exactly the same look as the standard G30 lower console. In the F10 M5, it got an entirely different lower center console design from the regular 5-Series F10. The F90 M5 should have gotten a completely different design down there.

9. Back seat knee/leg room. There is essentially no improvement in this area versus the F10 M5. Yes BMW lists the G30 as having 0.7 inches of more knee room, but whenver I sat in the back of the G30 I never felt it was more.

What I hate:

1. The engine. It's no secret that I've long dissented and lamented about them doing no innovation or development on an all new engine for the next generation M5. The engine is what provides almost the entire character of a car. A new engine would provide different acceleration and revving characteristics. And if one doesn't care about the exhaust note being unique and different, then you might as well be driving a Tesla Model S P100D that has no exhaust note. Not that the S63xx engine sounds bad at all, but it does sound exactly the same as before, and I cannot spend $130k+ on a car with the same exact sound.

Conclusion

Without even having driven the car yet I can't exactly give an accurate impression of the car, but I can take a pretty educated guess as to what it will be like. The F90 M5 on the street will be pretty much second to none now that it has AWD. On the track, I am willing to bet it will even produce faster lap times than an M4 with Competition Package, again due to the AWD. But at what price in driving enjoyment did it cost ///M Division to achieve this level of performance? For both former F10 M5 owners and driving purists who like NA engines and Manual Transmissions, this F90 M5 will be like driving a robot, or a car that does everything for you with the same engine sound you've been familiar with for 6 years now. Many F10 M5 owners don't mind the same exhaust note for another 6 years, but a few us wanted something new. And in the future it's only going to get worse. I can't see M Division ever developing an all new gasoline-powered engine again for the BMW M5. The next M5 will probably be another version of the S63 combined with an electric motor that will power the front wheels and a small battery pack to provide some sort of all-electric driving capability. For the M5's competitors, although the new 2018 Mercedes E63S engine does sound very good indeed, I don't see any manufacturer introducing a new gasoline-powered engine that will sound different in the future. For me this could be the end of the Sports Sedan buying experience.

In the end, I do believe that the F90 M5 is a missed opportunity but a step forward at the same time. But a step forward in a different direction. A direction that doesn't appeal to me at this point in time.

[brad850csi]

Originally Posted by lemetier

The series identifier in the past denoted which visual design proposal was chosen. It was decided to reverse this and reserve the series version identifier and apply it to the selection. F080 - F099 are M_Vehicle_35up on the Same Design Language Level.


I.e.:

F81 - M3 Touring
snip
F91 - M5 Touring

Don't you go teasing us!

[Bandiano]

My TVR 3000M of seventies vintage had very similar styled wheels black / alloy , smaller obviously.
Love'em they look great.

[somer]

Yikes, somehow missed the pricing on the car of €117,900 (138561.97 US dollars). Don't really have any words... Loaded, ceramics, comp package, sports exhaust, you're talking 160k+ here most likely......

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Jeffe

Silly comparison, I get it. But where I'm going with this is the fact that an American truck uses an 8 speed auto. Maybe the auto is amazing, who knows. But I don't see Porsche or Audi back tracking into the auto for their performance models. It just sounds like regression to me. The DCT was amazing and I'm so bummed it's going away. I'm even more scared for what the next gen m3/4 is going to show up with

Audi definitely is "backtracking" into autos over DSG...

RS6/7 has the ZF8-speed as well as the new RS5 (which used to have DSG)