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      08-24-2017, 03:57 PM   #199
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      08-25-2017, 09:13 AM   #200
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lemetier Any idea if the chrome on the door handles will be an "option" in the ordering guide or will we have to go through BMW Individual to get the full body colored door handles like in the 1st edition?
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      08-25-2017, 11:05 AM   #201
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lemetier Any idea if the chrome on the door handles will be an "option" in the ordering guide or will we have to go through BMW Individual to get the full body colored door handles like in the 1st edition?
Oh ya had to ask one of those kinds of questions now huh?

I can't check until later but I recall the First Edition shown in the photos and used for the launch has those handles because it's either missing an "option" that's standard pretty much everywhere or was built with a singlular market Control in place.

What exterior color(s) are you considering and with or without Executive Package? Can post up something to keep ya busy.
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      08-25-2017, 11:25 AM   #202
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Oh ya had to ask one of those kinds of questions now huh?

I can't check until later but I recall the First Edition shown in the photos and used for the launch has those handles because it's either missing an "option" that's standard pretty much everywhere or was built with a singlular market Control in place.

What exterior color(s) are you considering and with or without Executive Package? Can post up something to keep ya busy.
Marina Bay Blue for sure. You think the chrome is part of soft-close doors or something? I see comfort access is standard at least in the US but obviously these aren't US spec cars since they all have European license plates and no amber reflectors. I always wished the US market got more a la carte options like the european M5/M6 models did in terms of specific options. Things like seat massaging functions, rear windscreen blinds, soft close doors are all things I would just simply not get for simplicity/weight savings reasons.

Another thing, I notice there are no headlight washers in the pictures, what is the deal with those now? I know on the porsche forums certain models for the US market no longer require headlight washers with the newest LED technology but however they still require them in Europe. These have long been a massive waste in the US for years and would be great if they are finally going away.

Is there official word on tire size as well? Hoping for 295s in the rear from the factory.... But my guess is 285s for now and Competition Package with new wheels will be 275/295 combo. Also offset specs on the 706M's would be helpful too, I think the F10 spec 343M wheels in black would look fantastic on this car if they fit.

Last edited by somer; 08-25-2017 at 11:34 AM..
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      08-25-2017, 01:09 PM   #203
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Marina Bay Blue for sure. You think the chrome is part of soft-close doors or something? I see comfort access is standard at least in the US but obviously these aren't US spec cars since they all have European license plates and no amber reflectors. I always wished the US market got more a la carte options like the european M5/M6 models did in terms of specific options. Things like seat massaging functions, rear windscreen blinds, soft close doors are all things I would just simply not get for simplicity/weight savings reasons.

Another thing, I notice there are no headlight washers in the pictures, what is the deal with those now? I know on the porsche forums certain models for the US market no longer require headlight washers with the newest LED technology but however they still require them in Europe. These have long been a massive waste in the US for years and would be great if they are finally going away.

Is there official word on tire size as well? Hoping for 295s in the rear from the factory.... But my guess is 285s for now and Competition Package with new wheels will be 275/295 combo. Also offset specs on the 706M's would be helpful too, I think the F10 spec 343M wheels in black would look fantastic on this car if they fit.
Well for MBB, one would possibly find interest in part number 51218058677 and anywhere else that leads (rather doesn't lead). That particular First Edition Prototype does not have Comfort Access of all things so no body color in markets where CA is standard or a required option.

Headlamp Washers should be a thing of the past in most, if not all markets.

No comment as of this moment on tire size for several reasons. Regarding F10 wheels however, they will not fit the F90 as the bolt pattern is now 5x112 CB 66.56.i
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      08-25-2017, 05:22 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by somer View Post
Marina Bay Blue for sure. You think the chrome is part of soft-close doors or something? I see comfort access is standard at least in the US but obviously these aren't US spec cars since they all have European license plates and no amber reflectors. I always wished the US market got more a la carte options like the european M5/M6 models did in terms of specific options. Things like seat massaging functions, rear windscreen blinds, soft close doors are all things I would just simply not get for simplicity/weight savings reasons.

Another thing, I notice there are no headlight washers in the pictures, what is the deal with those now? I know on the porsche forums certain models for the US market no longer require headlight washers with the newest LED technology but however they still require them in Europe. These have long been a massive waste in the US for years and would be great if they are finally going away.

Is there official word on tire size as well? Hoping for 295s in the rear from the factory.... But my guess is 285s for now and Competition Package with new wheels will be 275/295 combo. Also offset specs on the 706M's would be helpful too, I think the F10 spec 343M wheels in black would look fantastic on this car if they fit.
Well for MBB, one would possibly find interest in part number 51218058677 and anywhere else that leads (rather doesn't lead). That particular First Edition Prototype does not have Comfort Access of all things so no body color in markets where CA is standard or a required option.

Headlamp Washers should be a thing of the past in most, if not all markets.

No comment as of this moment on tire size for several reasons. Regarding F10 wheels however, they will not fit the F90 as the bolt pattern is now 5x112 CB 66.56.i
Got one of my dealer?s HEA?s - wondering when the black grill will be available as it wasn?t for the HEA
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      08-25-2017, 07:24 PM   #205
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Duno if anyone else noticed, but fuel tank capacity is down to 17.9 gallons (68L) vs 21.92 gallons (83L) in the F10. Stupid.
The F10 had a 83 L tank? What size would an F150 have?
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      08-25-2017, 10:47 PM   #206
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Why are people so hung up about the fact that the new M5 will not have a DCT? The 8 speed seems pretty damn quick to me. Dare I say, quicker than the DCT in the now older M5.



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      08-26-2017, 07:10 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
Oh ya had to ask one of those kinds of questions now huh?

I can't check until later but I recall the First Edition shown in the photos and used for the launch has those handles because it's either missing an "option" that's standard pretty much everywhere or was built with a singlular market Control in place.

What exterior color(s) are you considering and with or without Executive Package? Can post up something to keep ya busy.
Marina Bay Blue for sure. You think the chrome is part of soft-close doors or something? I see comfort access is standard at least in the US but obviously these aren't US spec cars since they all have European license plates and no amber reflectors. I always wished the US market got more a la carte options like the european M5/M6 models did in terms of specific options. Things like seat massaging functions, rear windscreen blinds, soft close doors are all things I would just simply not get for simplicity/weight savings reasons.

Another thing, I notice there are no headlight washers in the pictures, what is the deal with those now? I know on the porsche forums certain models for the US market no longer require headlight washers with the newest LED technology but however they still require them in Europe. These have long been a massive waste in the US for years and would be great if they are finally going away.

Is there official word on tire size as well? Hoping for 295s in the rear from the factory.... But my guess is 285s for now and Competition Package with new wheels will be 275/295 combo. Also offset specs on the 706M's would be helpful too, I think the F10 spec 343M wheels in black would look fantastic on this car if they fit.
According to ECE Reg 48, headlight washers are not required on Xenon and LED lights as long as they don't exceed a certain candela.
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      08-26-2017, 10:59 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mingwan
Why are people so hung up about the fact that the new M5 will not have a DCT? The 8 speed seems pretty damn quick to me. Dare I say, quicker than the DCT in the now older M5.



cause the zf8 is pretty much used in all cars driving down the street and it has a torque converter. so this m5 does not have a special engine and they removed the semi special dct and gave it a pedestrian 8at. now it's easier to cross shop MB Audi and bmw in this segment as they all have the same cars with different badges.
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      08-28-2017, 08:48 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Mingwan View Post
Why are people so hung up about the fact that the new M5 will not have a DCT? The 8 speed seems pretty damn quick to me. Dare I say, quicker than the DCT in the now older M5.



Quickness is one thing, but sense of connection is another. I'm afraid the new torque converters are not as rev happy as the DCT counterpart shown due to its mechanical max rpm limitation and much heavier rotating mass. I'd like to refrain from commenting on how it drives but based on my experience on the same tranny as F90 M5, shifts will most likely feel very numb especially on downshifts.
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      08-30-2017, 11:04 AM   #210
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mingwan View Post
Why are people so hung up about the fact that the new M5 will not have a DCT? The 8 speed seems pretty damn quick to me. Dare I say, quicker than the DCT in the now older M5.



Quickness is one thing, but sense of connection is another. I'm afraid the new torque converters are not as rev happy as the DCT counterpart shown due to its mechanical max rpm limitation and much heavier rotating mass. I'd like to refrain from commenting on how it drives but based on my experience on the same tranny as F90 M5, shifts will most likely feel very numb especially on downshifts.
As regards inertia (which is what I guess you are referring to) in the clutch/flywheel assembly compared to the inertia in a flexplate/torque converter you have to take into account the complete assemblies in both configurations.

A DCT car has a flywheel (double mass for the S63 engine) and the twin clutch assembly. Which added together weighs roughly (weight of flywheel from Realoem.com):
  • Flywheel: 8,1kg
  • DCT clutch: 13kg (weight of total clutch assembly, source ZF)
  • Total weight of rotating assembly: 21,1kg

An automatic transmission car with torque converter has the flexplate and torque converter assembly. Which added together weighs roughly (weight of flexplate from Realoem.com):
  • Flexplate: 2,01kg
  • Torque Converter: 17,4kg (complete assembly, source ZF)
  • Total weight of rotating assembly: 19,41kg

So, not a whole lot of difference in rotating mass and inertia between the two different systems. Yes, transmission fluid inside the converter also adds to the inertia of that system, I'll agree to that. But the systems aren't night and day apart in inertia. Factor in all the other rotating masses and the percentage in weight difference becomes pretty small.

However it's clear from the rev counter videos that the redline/shiftpoints have been lowered compared to the F10 M5. And that is certainly most likely due to the rpm limitations of the ZF8.
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      08-30-2017, 11:16 AM   #211
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As regards inertia (which is what I guess you are referring to) in the clutch/flywheel assembly compared to the inertia in a flexplate/torque converter you have to take into account the complete assemblies in both configurations.


So, not a whole lot of difference in rotating mass and inertia between the two different systems. Yes, transmission fluid inside the converter also adds to the inertia of that system, I'll agree to that. But the systems aren't night and day apart in inertia. Factor in all the other rotating masses and the percentage in weight difference becomes pretty small.
.
I'm afraid I'm referring to the whole drivetrain rotating mass, from front transfer shaft to additional gear in the box for AWD that adds to the whole rotating mass. One way to resolve this difference could be use of CFRP driveshafts, but seeing how they are moving away due to Euro regulations that require gasoline particulate filters (God how I love these Euro eco hippies lol) chance is unlikely.
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      08-30-2017, 11:19 AM   #212
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However it's clear from the rev counter videos that the redline/shiftpoints have been lowered compared to the F10 M5. And that is certainly most likely due to the rpm limitations of the ZF8.
Those are all manual shifts for demo purposes. They don't go to redline which remains unchanged at 7200.

This is going to be a hot topic in regards to the transmission choice and reasons given for dropping DCT in lieu of a Planetary Box.
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      08-30-2017, 12:45 PM   #213
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Those are all manual shifts for demo purposes. They don't go to redline which remains unchanged at 7200.

This is going to be a hot topic in regards to the transmission choice and reasons given for dropping DCT in lieu of a Planetary Box.
Any reason for linking the new continental?
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      08-30-2017, 01:08 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
Those are all manual shifts for demo purposes. They don't go to redline which remains unchanged at 7200.

This is going to be a hot topic in regards to the transmission choice and reasons given for dropping DCT in lieu of a Planetary Box.
Any reason for linking the new continental?
PDK Gearbox with 900nm (665lb ft). Would appear that the argument regarding Dual Clutch Torque limits is bogus when taken at face value. There's always more to the story though.

I also think the updated Flying Spur V8 S, once launched on the new platform, will be a likely overlooked potential lease alternative to the F90.
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      08-30-2017, 02:12 PM   #215
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PDK Gearbox with 900nm (665lb ft). Would appear that the argument regarding Dual Clutch Torque limits is bogus when taken at face value. There's always more to the story though.

I also think the updated Flying Spur V8 S, once launched on the new platform, will be a likely overlooked potential lease alternative to the F90.
Oh I see, I didn't realize it was coming with the new 8DT unit until I just read about it. Gotta imagine Bentley has done extensive testing on "drivability" at low speeds and they find it more than acceptable. Also the torque issue... still overall disappointed BMW didn't go with DCT for this next generation but will reserve judgement till after have driven the slushbox
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      08-31-2017, 02:17 AM   #216
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Oh I see, I didn't realize it was coming with the new 8DT unit until I just read about it. Gotta imagine Bentley has done extensive testing on "drivability" at low speeds and they find it more than acceptable. Also the torque issue... still overall disappointed BMW didn't go with DCT for this next generation but will reserve judgement till after have driven the slushbox
Porsche is also using this transmission in the new Panamera, including the top-end Turbo S e-Hybrid, which has both AWD and a total system output exceeding that of the M5 (680hp and 626 lb ft). To be fair to BMW, that car also has a base US MSRP of $185,000, which way over what the M5 would cost fully optioned out.
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      09-06-2017, 10:47 AM   #217
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lemetier Are press car reviews coming out soon? I'm watching this Joe Achillies video and he's talking about an embargo'd car him and his friend are reviewing with PS4S tires this week. Gotta assume he means the M5. Logical guess is embargo would lift the week of the 17th of September after the Frankfurt motor show next week.

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      11-03-2017, 07:38 AM   #218
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With the 3.2 seconds to 60 mph quoted I guess this will be a sub 7 second car to 100 mph.
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      11-20-2017, 05:38 PM   #219
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      01-04-2018, 03:32 PM   #220
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In all honesty, this DCT vs torque converter discussion seems elementary to me to be honest. For all of you anti-ZF8 arguers, have you driven the F85? Not apples to apples, but at least it's the S63TU mated to the same ZF8 box. I can tell you, the smoothness in normal "D" driving is sublime and Sport+ shifts are DCT level quick. No issues downshifting either. After test driving mine and learning it wasn't a DCT box I was shocked.

That being said, this conversation of "BMW (and M) isn't what it once was blah blah" is hilarious. Half of the people saying this stuff aren't buying the car brand new to begin with. The other half are complaining about the car not being as special as it should be. If BMW has to use the same motor for 2 generations of the M5 (f10 into F90) to make sure that the motor works properly then so be it. Look at every other motor they've made specifically to a chassis in the last 10 years.

-The E46 had horrendous motor problems from VANOS to rod bearings. Ask me how I know.
-The E60 motor is an abomination in terms of reliability and upkeep. New VANOS solenoids are close to $3,000 each right now.
-The E9x M3 motor is a derivative of the S85 which was in production for 3 years before it became the S65.

I could care less if my M car has a one-off motor, as long as it performs (which it does) and as long as I won't be losing sleep over my motor blowing up (which I think they're at with these developed S63s). At the end of the day, the product we're getting today is a much better all around car than those of years past.

We aren't in a scenario where the cars are losing in a straight line to AMG or RS cars, and we still get to keep our handling ability that M is known for. I struggle to understand how people can find a way to complain. End rant.

Last edited by supersanj; 01-04-2018 at 03:33 PM.. Reason: spacing
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