[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by mundo74

Lets See. Porsche just invested millions with ZF to develop a DCT. If the current ZF8 could satisfy them they would use it. Thing is "traditional "buyers of M cars are real connoisseurs. Transmissions do make a difference and by design manual>DCT>auto for driver engagement. I suspect they will tune the hell out of the 8AT but a viscous clutch is a viscous clutch and connoisseurs will be able to tell the difference. I think this car will be faster off the line and better in every way on a spreadsheet, but will not be special. I hope its not just a faster M550. The more I hear about the F90 M5 the more I think the connoisseurs will not be satisfied. Time will tell, hope I'm wrong.

And don't get me started on 8 and 9 speed transmissions. They belong in a semi. There is no satisfaction milling through 8 or 9 speeds for performance cars.

Traditional M connoisseur also didn't want AWD or turbo engine.

The question is, how big of a population are they?

Not saying the M5 will go Auto for sure, but am I going to be surprised if they did? Not really.

If BMW asked this forum how they should make M cars, it will look a whole lot different than what they are making now. But BMW is not going to let traditional M connoisseur dictate how they make cars.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by mundo74

So are you saying that ZF has a DCT that supports AWD that BMW can use for the F90 M5.

The current ZF8 "slushbox" as known, can accept a Torque Converter, Dual Clutch, or Multi Disk Clutch forward module. Instead of having 2 Parallel sub transmissions, it splits them longitudinally. Alternatively, a 2 Shaft Parallel assembly can be installed based off the previous PDK 7 Speed. All can utilize the integrated Electro-Hydraulic Center PTU.

The problem with a torque converter is engine speed. Unless the powerband is neutered, it's a no start.

[mundo74]

very interesting. lets see what they come up with. i kinda like the quirkiness of my DCT. it reminds me that im not driving a 8AT 550i

[mundo74]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Traditional M connoisseur also didn't want AWD or turbo engine.

The question is, how big of a population are they?

Not saying the M5 will go Auto for sure, but am I going to be surprised if they did? Not really.

If BMW asked this forum how they should make M cars, it will look a whole lot different than what they are making now. But BMW is not going to let traditional M connoisseur dictate how they make cars.

i fear you are right. what im saying is if the dct gets replaced by an 8at then it should be better not worst. remember the m5/m6 is not a volume car. its clientelle is a bit more picky.

[brad850csi]

Originally Posted by lemetier

The current ZF8 "slushbox" as known, can accept a Torque Converter, Dual Clutch, or Multi Disk Clutch forward module. Instead of having 2 Parallel sub transmissions, it splits them longitudinally. Alternatively, a 2 Shaft Parallel assembly can be installed based off the previous PDK 7 Speed. All can utilize the integrated Electro-Hydraulic Center PTU.

The problem with a torque converter is engine speed. Unless the powerband is neutered, it's a no start.

Is the implementation in the Panamera similar to the BMW with the front diff on the side of the sump, or is it in front of the engine's sump?

[ChrisNich117]

Having had two f10 m5's and now an x6m, I can say that the zf auto is pretty incredible. It's tuned like a DCT. If I didn't research the car before driving it the first time I could have been fooled into thinking it was a DCT. It even goes into neutral at a stop like the DCT does. It also won't upshift on you like every AMG and AUDI does. So if the next M5 is going to have this tranny, shed some pounds from having a lighter transmission with quicker shifts then why not? The ZF shifts quicker than the DCT, and it still gives you the same control in manual mode. I'm assuming 95% of people on this thread haven't driven the x6/x5m models to compare lol. It's nothing like the Audi RS tranny or the AMG's. Can't wait for my next M5 I'll have a Porsche for the track. But all you dragstrip posers got exactly what you wanted so don't complain about not having a DCT and RWD

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by brad850csi

Is the implementation in the Panamera similar to the BMW with the front diff on the side of the sump, or is it in front of the engine's sump?

The New Panamera is offset to the side now.

[DarthColin]

I was initially disappointed by this news, but I'm hopeful that the drivetrain performance solution that the engineers come up with is equal to or better than the current M5. I'd like to test drive an X5M or X6M to see how that transmission works. Does anyone think that maybe the reason BMW is going the ZF AT route is to ensure capability with semi-auto driving modes and remote parking etc. ?

My wife is even on board with his purchase, so I wisely and promptly showed her some colour combinations! I'm hoping we end up with one of these within the first year, and to take European delivery of the machine. Ideally, this cars rubber will make contact with Nurburgring asphalt.

[FastLaneJB]

Also an F10 M5 driver. I've no issues with the DCT going for the ZF 8 speed. Had a BMW with one and in sport it would shift pretty fast with a snap like the DCT. It wasn't as violent but then that car had half the power of my M5 as well.

AWD is a must for my next car. I'm not having a car with this much power and only RWD again. Is it nice to feel the rear wiggle? Yes of course it is but it's wet and cold in the UK a lot so there's many days when my M5 would be a fraction of the speed of say an Audi S3. Sorry but in my eyes this is good news. Also if you can switch it to RWD I honestly don't see what your all complaining about. You must be living somewhere that it never rains, snows or the temps drop low clearly.

Also quite a few of these arguments are that BMW should have something because this other car has it. However most of the examples listed are cars costing almost twice as much as the M5.

To me the M5 is a comfortable GT, daily driver family car, spacious and very fast at a very reasonable price. Can I get a faster car? Sure but not really without spending a lot more money. For the price I suspect it'll have the E63S and RS6 licked which are its natural competition. Also Merc have ruined the new E63 by making it ride worse than a C63. What where they thinking? Other than that it was a great car but for the poor roads in the U.K. that's a deal breaker for me.

Oh and new E63S is around 100kg heavier and probably around 10bhp down on the M5. If it's 3.5 sec to 60 then my gut is M5 is going to shave 0.1 off that time.

[superchargedman]

Originally Posted by DarthColin

I was initially disappointed by this news, but I'm hopeful that the drivetrain performance solution that the engineers come up with is equal to or better than the current M5. I'd like to test drive an X5M or X6M to see how that transmission works. Does anyone think that maybe the reason BMW is going the ZF AT route is to ensure capability with semi-auto driving modes and remote parking etc. ?

My wife is even on board with his purchase, so I wisely and promptly showed her some colour combinations! I'm hoping we end up with one of these within the first year, and to take European delivery of the machine. Ideally, this cars rubber will make contact with Nurburgring asphalt.

It looks like we're following each other with the same plan. My 1M is going to have to be traded in for this sledgehammer.

[FastLaneJB]

Well I noticed it's very clear in the Evo pictures that the car had front radar. So unlike the previous M model cars I'm suspecting this one will be able to be ordered with active cruise control for instance.

I think that'll be why the M buttons on the steering wheel aren't in the same place as before because where they put them is where the active cruise buttons are on the regular cars.

When just cruising on a motorway or sat in traffic I do miss my active cruise to be honest.

[IshR]

Originally Posted by FastLaneJB

Also an F10 M5 driver. I've no issues with the DCT going for the ZF 8 speed. Had a BMW with one and in sport it would shift pretty fast with a snap like the DCT. It wasn't as violent but then that car had half the power of my M5 as well.

AWD is a must for my next car. I'm not having a car with this much power and only RWD again. Is it nice to feel the rear wiggle? Yes of course it is but it's wet and cold in the UK a lot so there's many days when my M5 would be a fraction of the speed of say an Audi S3. Sorry but in my eyes this is good news. Also if you can switch it to RWD I honestly don't see what your all complaining about. You must be living somewhere that it never rains, snows or the temps drop low clearly.

Also quite a few of these arguments are that BMW should have something because this other car has it. However most of the examples listed are cars costing almost twice as much as the M5.

To me the M5 is a comfortable GT, daily driver family car, spacious and very fast at a very reasonable price. Can I get a faster car? Sure but not really without spending a lot more money. For the price I suspect it'll have the E63S and RS6 licked which are its natural competition. Also Merc have ruined the new E63 by making it ride worse than a C63. What where they thinking? Other than that it was a great car but for the poor roads in the U.K. that's a deal breaker for me.

Oh and new E63S is around 100kg heavier and probably around 10bhp down on the M5. If it's 3.5 sec to 60 then my gut is M5 is going to shave 0.1 off that time.

E63s unlikely to 100kg heavier bro, it has a kerb weight of 1955kg compared to f10 m5s kerb weight of 1945kg.

Also I think the mercs wet clutch mct is better then the ZF8 auto box.

[FastLaneJB]

Originally Posted by IshR

E63s unlikely to 100kg heavier bro, it has a kerb weight of 1955kg compared to f10 m5s kerb weight of 1945kg.

Also I think the mercs wet clutch mct is better then the ZF8 auto box.

The other post about what Evo said has the car at 1850kg. Pretty much 100kg less than the E63S.

The new 5 series is lighter. A DCT is heavier than the ZF auto. 4 wheel drive adds some weight but then lose some with carbon fibre roof and boot lid. Also the F10 M5 in the U.K. comes with the sun roof as standard. I feel 100kg less than the old M5 is do-able.

Might well be the carbon fibre roof is an option so you can still have a sun roof if you want. Hence that weight might be only with some options but regardless I've faith they can make it lighter than the F10.