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      01-04-2020, 11:00 AM   #1
JBA87
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Piggy Back v ECU Tune

I am coming from an Audi S6, where there is (to my knowledge) no "piggy back tuning."

Can someone explain to me the operative and implicative differences of a "piggy back" vs. "ECU" tune. I don't full comprehend the difference.

Also I'm shopping around and here are the tunes I am aware of (please add to the list) and feel free to comment on the differences:

Piggyback
JB4
Racechip
Dinan

Tune
Evolve
Vivid racing
Noelle
HCP
Dme
Eurocharged


Any others ?
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      01-04-2020, 11:16 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBA87 View Post
I am coming from an Audi S6, where there is (to my knowledge) no "piggy back tuning."

Can someone explain to me the operative and implicative differences of a "piggy back" vs. "ECU" tune. I don't full comprehend the difference.

Also I'm shopping around and here are the tunes I am aware of (please add to the list) and feel free to comment on the differences:

Piggyback
JB4
Racechip
Dinan

Tune
Evolve
Vivid racing
Noelle
HCP
Dme
Eurocharged


Any others ?
The Piggy back tricks the ECU into thinking it needs to adjust output parameters by sending the ECU a lower value. The tune changes the software file in the ECU itself and outputs with however you have the file setup. Both primarily adjust boost and wastegate control in order to increase HP and TQ.

Look at BPM. Mike is very good and you will find nothing but positive reviews for him here and on the F10 forum.

www.bpmsport.com
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      01-04-2020, 11:25 AM   #3
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On my f90, I've had the following:

First, I installed the race chip on an otherwise stock car. It definitely makes power, but only felt at top end. Car did 10.8 at 128 in florida summer.

Then, I had a eurocharged ecu flash (removed race chip). Car was slower....only did 11.0, at same track, and same fuel, and same weather. Low and mid ranges were improved over race chip, but top end was dead. Throttle closures, etc.

Removed ec flash and went with weistec ecu file. Strong low, mid, and top end. Car did 10.6 at 130 at same track as before. Great drivability too.

Now have stacked jb4 on top of weistec ecu flash. car does 10.2 at 136. We'll do some more tuning on the ecu file in Feb when tuner in town. Car has superb streetability, and is fast. Very happy with this setup. JB4 is a cool tool.

Car also has awe intakes, remus catback, and beta tcu tune (will be revised).
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      01-04-2020, 12:00 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaM5 View Post
On my f90, I've had the following:

First, I installed the race chip on an otherwise stock car. It definitely makes power, but only felt at top end. Car did 10.8 at 128 in florida summer.

Then, I had a eurocharged ecu flash (removed race chip). Car was slower....only did 11.0, at same track, and same fuel, and same weather. Low and mid ranges were improved over race chip, but top end was dead. Throttle closures, etc.

Removed ec flash and went with weistec ecu file. Strong low, mid, and top end. Car did 10.6 at 130 at same track as before. Great drivability too.

Now have stacked jb4 on top of weistec ecu flash. car does 10.2 at 136. We'll do some more tuning on the ecu file in Feb when tuner in town. Car has superb streetability, and is fast. Very happy with this setup. JB4 is a cool tool.

Car also has awe intakes, remus catback, and beta tcu tune (will be revised).
Getting both seems to be the best way to go! I started with JB4 and now that I have meth injection I'm going with likely a DME flash to take full advantage of it, but keeping the JB4 to get a little extra boost at the track and to be able to drop into the valet map if the meth stops flowing. Its definitely a good tool to have even if you have a flash.
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      01-04-2020, 01:03 PM   #5
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BMS has a FAQ that explains the differences nicely.

https://www.burgertuning.com/pages/faq
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      01-04-2020, 01:05 PM   #6
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I forgot to include bm3bootmod
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      01-04-2020, 01:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaM5 View Post
On my f90, I've had the following:

First, I installed the race chip on an otherwise stock car. It definitely makes power, but only felt at top end. Car did 10.8 at 128 in florida summer.

Then, I had a eurocharged ecu flash (removed race chip). Car was slower....only did 11.0, at same track, and same fuel, and same weather. Low and mid ranges were improved over race chip, but top end was dead. Throttle closures, etc.

Removed ec flash and went with weistec ecu file. Strong low, mid, and top end. Car did 10.6 at 130 at same track as before. Great drivability too.

Now have stacked jb4 on top of weistec ecu flash. car does 10.2 at 136. We'll do some more tuning on the ecu file in Feb when tuner in town. Car has superb streetability, and is fast. Very happy with this setup. JB4 is a cool tool.

Car also has awe intakes, remus catback, and beta tcu tune (will be revised).
Eurocharge is trash for our cars. I tried it on my F10 M5 and my car was significantly slower than piggy. Their flash was a detuned stage 2 from Bruno.
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      01-04-2020, 02:00 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13M5F10 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaM5 View Post
On my f90, I've had the following:

First, I installed the race chip on an otherwise stock car. It definitely makes power, but only felt at top end. Car did 10.8 at 128 in florida summer.

Then, I had a eurocharged ecu flash (removed race chip). Car was slower....only did 11.0, at same track, and same fuel, and same weather. Low and mid ranges were improved over race chip, but top end was dead. Throttle closures, etc.

Removed ec flash and went with weistec ecu file. Strong low, mid, and top end. Car did 10.6 at 130 at same track as before. Great drivability too.

Now have stacked jb4 on top of weistec ecu flash. car does 10.2 at 136. We'll do some more tuning on the ecu file in Feb when tuner in town. Car has superb streetability, and is fast. Very happy with this setup. JB4 is a cool tool.

Car also has awe intakes, remus catback, and beta tcu tune (will be revised).
Eurocharge is trash for our cars. I tried it on my F10 M5 and my car was significantly slower than piggy. Their flash was a detuned stage 2 from Bruno.
That's interesting. They, amongst others, provided tunes for my last two e63 amgs, and while they were never the fastest of my ecu files, they did well, and were 'fast enough' with good drivability. The eurocharged file I received for this car was def not good enough...
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      01-04-2020, 02:01 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpdriver17 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaM5 View Post
On my f90, I've had the following:

First, I installed the race chip on an otherwise stock car. It definitely makes power, but only felt at top end. Car did 10.8 at 128 in florida summer.

Then, I had a eurocharged ecu flash (removed race chip). Car was slower....only did 11.0, at same track, and same fuel, and same weather. Low and mid ranges were improved over race chip, but top end was dead. Throttle closures, etc.

Removed ec flash and went with weistec ecu file. Strong low, mid, and top end. Car did 10.6 at 130 at same track as before. Great drivability too.

Now have stacked jb4 on top of weistec ecu flash. car does 10.2 at 136. We'll do some more tuning on the ecu file in Feb when tuner in town. Car has superb streetability, and is fast. Very happy with this setup. JB4 is a cool tool.

Car also has awe intakes, remus catback, and beta tcu tune (will be revised).
Getting both seems to be the best way to go! I started with JB4 and now that I have meth injection I'm going with likely a DME flash to take full advantage of it, but keeping the JB4 to get a little extra boost at the track and to be able to drop into the valet map if the meth stops flowing. Its definitely a good tool to have even if you have a flash.
Makes sense bud. I've had good success with DME...should be a rocket once done.
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      01-04-2020, 02:06 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaM5 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13M5F10 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaM5 View Post
On my f90, I've had the following:

First, I installed the race chip on an otherwise stock car. It definitely makes power, but only felt at top end. Car did 10.8 at 128 in florida summer.

Then, I had a eurocharged ecu flash (removed race chip). Car was slower....only did 11.0, at same track, and same fuel, and same weather. Low and mid ranges were improved over race chip, but top end was dead. Throttle closures, etc.

Removed ec flash and went with weistec ecu file. Strong low, mid, and top end. Car did 10.6 at 130 at same track as before. Great drivability too.

Now have stacked jb4 on top of weistec ecu flash. car does 10.2 at 136. We'll do some more tuning on the ecu file in Feb when tuner in town. Car has superb streetability, and is fast. Very happy with this setup. JB4 is a cool tool.

Car also has awe intakes, remus catback, and beta tcu tune (will be revised).
Eurocharge is trash for our cars. I tried it on my F10 M5 and my car was significantly slower than piggy. Their flash was a detuned stage 2 from Bruno.
That's interesting. They, amongst others, provided tunes for my last two e63 amgs, and while they were never the fastest of my ecu files, they did well, and were 'fast enough' with good drivability. The eurocharged file I received for this car was def not good enough...
In the AMG world they've done well. Not sure why with BMWs they struggled. I know with the F10s they didn't see enough return to invest in them and do R&D to get a good tune.

It's not a knock on them as a shop, it's just with the M5s their tunes suck. Maybe they want reliability but I've had very reliable tunes from others with better results.
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      01-04-2020, 03:17 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBA87 View Post
I am coming from an Audi S6, where there is (to my knowledge) no "piggy back tuning."

Can someone explain to me the operative and implicative differences of a "piggy back" vs. "ECU" tune. I don't full comprehend the difference.

Also I'm shopping around and here are the tunes I am aware of (please add to the list) and feel free to comment on the differences:

Piggyback
JB4
Racechip
Dinan

Tune
Evolve
Vivid racing
Noelle
HCP
Dme
Eurocharged


Any others ?
ABT and MTM are both piggyback
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      01-04-2020, 03:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13M5F10 View Post
In the AMG world they've done well. Not sure why with BMWs they struggled. I know with the F10s they didn't see enough return to invest in them and do R&D to get a good tune.

It's not a knock on them as a shop, it's just with the M5s their tunes suck. Maybe they want reliability but I've had very reliable tunes from others with better results.
Several C63 owners complained that their cars were slower than stock with the eurocharge tunes. If I remember right a few people also had issues with codes being thrown. Seemed to be the only tune people didn't like...
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      01-04-2020, 03:23 PM   #13
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Here is an updated list of tunes


Piggyback
JB4
Racechip
Dinan
ABT
MTM

Tune
Evolve
Vivid racing
Noelle
HCP
Dme
Eurocharged
Bootmod3/BM3
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      01-04-2020, 05:32 PM   #14
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Did you read the FAQ I posted?
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      01-04-2020, 05:35 PM   #15
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Yes. Very helpful. I think there are some more tuners listers there as well.
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      01-04-2020, 05:38 PM   #16
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Velos also has a tune for the F90 M5.

Lots of information on the Piggy versus tune debate in the F10 M5 forums.
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GONE: 15' F10 M5|BSM|BLACK|VELOS VSS-S2|KW|AKRA|IND|CF |ESCORT 360|VELOS PIGGY
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      01-05-2020, 09:23 AM   #17
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Velos claims some large HP/TQ increases...

Does anyone have some dragy times with that tune on 93 octane?
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      01-05-2020, 09:34 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBA87 View Post
Velos claims some large HP/TQ increases...

Does anyone have some dragy times with that tune on 93 octane?
There's a couple of Miami guys running their tune with good results as per owners; I met the owner of a White F90 M5 running their tune and his feedback was positive; stage 2 w/ dps.

Velos has done all of the work on my last 3 M5's and they are very knowledgeable ... not too far from you either.

Omar or Carlos can help with any tune questions you may have.

I ran their piggy for 5+ years on 2 F10 M5's with zero issues.
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GONE: 15' F10 M5|BSM|BLACK|VELOS VSS-S2|KW|AKRA|IND|CF |ESCORT 360|VELOS PIGGY
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      01-06-2020, 05:57 AM   #19
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Just to confirm BM3 is a tune not a piggyback ? Correct ?
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      01-06-2020, 10:18 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBA87 View Post
Yes. Very helpful. I think there are some more tuners listers there as well.
It just gives you a feeling of the difference between JB4 vs. flash tunes vs. all other piggyback tunes.
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      01-07-2020, 03:23 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBA87 View Post
Here is an updated list of tunes


Piggyback
JB4
Racechip
Dinan
ABT
MTM

Tune
Evolve
Vivid racing
Noelle
HCP
Dme
Eurocharged
Bootmod3/BM3
Long term there are some advantages of using a tune. I personally think they run smoother as they are changing the cars actual ECU. Once I'm out of warranty I may flash for long term.

JB4 is amazing, and I have set records using it. The thing with JB4 is that anyone can use it just like a flash tune. However, you're limited to some basic setups. Point is, you're not going to put up these crazy numbers unless you have some knowledge, willing to slowly ramp up read logs, test and adjust. If you just want a basic tune using map1 or map2 which is probably the equivalent of a stage 2 tune then go for it. I ran a 10.15 on map2 in my car but I was on 101octane with DP's

If you aren't worried about warranty and just want something that you don't ever have to mess with and can just plug and play then a flash tune is the way to go.

With JB4 though, not only can I use different maps but each car is different. For instance, map 2 on a certain car will run better than say my car. Especially if you have mods and which modes, which brands etc. With JB4 you can adjust things to work specifically to your car and your mods.

Keep in mind, that if you don't want to run downpipes that most if not all tunes will tell you to stick with stage one. However, with JB4 I have seen multiple guys that are completely stock run map2 or map6 with adjustments and run what is equal to a stage2 and put up 10.3's. It's still questionable anytime you run too much boost with stock DP's as the cats can break apart or melt and cause a backup which is not good.

I ran a 10.05 on map6 JB4 and a 2.54 0-60 and multiple 60-130 runs under 6.0. I just can't seem to put them all together on one run..haha

I had every intention of going with a tune but I see no point when the car is already putting up these kinds of numbers. For daily driving I still run map1 and 91 octane and can put up a 10.3 or add some boostane or pump 101 and run map2 or map6 variation and get a 10.15-10.3

Tunes are the right choice for most people. If you do go with a tune and you want the most power then stick with the ones most guys are using and putting up the best numbers. Evolve, HCP, and DME is also popular but I never see them up high on Dragy. I have seen some Eurocharged but guys that I know haven't had great results on this platform. I would also consider Weistec as they are awesome with Benz and have done a few F90's that are looking legit and the company itself is top notch and local for me at least.
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JB4: 1096 DA 0-60 2.54 -- 1/8 Mile 6.50 -- 1/4 Mile 10.05 -- 60-130 6.18
IG: @hockeytyme All runs on street with no prep on 21 inch wheels and PS4S tires
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      01-08-2020, 11:23 AM   #22
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Quote:
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Just to confirm BM3 is a tune not a piggyback ? Correct ?
Correct the bootmod3 is a flash tune.
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