[limeypride]

Originally Posted by dalixz25

I can't speak about the Model S, but freeway driving doesn't necessarily change the experience, at least in the M3Performance. You don't get the same kick in the pants off the line when you floor it after a certain threshold as is indicated in the following dyno graph of both a Model 3 and Model 3 Performance

LOL, those HP and torque curves... well, aren't... they're not curved at all to begin with (makes sense given the purported instantaneous torque of electric engines). 4WD acknowledged, it's no wonder this little car slays so many otherwise 'quick' cars off of the line (and, apparently, even on the track).

Aside: it's funny how the whole point of this thread (i.e. my intent behind it; I'm more than happy for others to digress) wasn't referenced even once. In reality, I was saying that the little Model 3 Performance demonstrated the inadequacies of the ZF transmission--it's simply too slow to compete in anything but well-timed launch control or manual, perfectly-timed short-shifts. In D2 or D3, the car wrings everything it can out of each gear causing the ZF to convulse into the next gear losing perhaps 0.2 or 0.3s each shift. Neither my M-DCTs nor my E63S' dual wet-clutch automatic suffered this problem. Anyhoo, 1st-world problems...

[vtknight]

Originally Posted by limeypride

LOL, those HP and torque curves... well, aren't... they're not curved at all to begin with (makes sense given the purported instantaneous torque of electric engines). 4WD acknowledged, it's no wonder this little car slays so many otherwise 'quick' cars off of the line (and, apparently, even on the track).

Aside: it's funny how the whole point of this thread (i.e. my intent behind it; I'm more than happy for others to digress) wasn't referenced even once. In reality, I was saying that the little Model 3 Performance demonstrated the inadequacies of the ZF transmission--it's simply too slow to compete in anything but well-timed launch control or manual, perfectly-timed short-shifts. In D2 or D3, the car wrings everything it can out of each gear causing the ZF to convulse into the next gear losing perhaps 0.2 or 0.3s each shift. Neither my M-DCTs nor my E63S' dual wet-clutch automatic suffered this problem. Anyhoo, 1st-world problems...

Wow. LP - I am going to have to go ahead and disagree with you once you put up the E63S transmission versus the ZF. The AMG's auto is horrendous. You cannot even manually shift it without - literally - a one Mississippi gap in between. I had to shift several hundred RPM before redline because I knew the Merc trans would hesitate.
Maybe the newer MB's are better - because my 14 E63S was horrific.
That said - I don't see how as the new E63S is slower with more power - so the trans can't be helping it out.

There is no comparison to the ZF. While I agree a DCT is quicker - the ZF is pretty quick and smooth - and everyday driving is so much more superior than the old F10 DCT. The ZF is used everywhere for a reason.

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by vtknight

Wow. LP - I am going to have to go ahead and disagree with you once you put up the E63S transmission versus the ZF. The AMG's auto is horrendous. You cannot even manually shift it without - literally - a one Mississippi gap in between. I had to shift several hundred RPM before redline because I knew the Merc trans would hesitate.
Maybe the newer MB's are better - because my 14 E63S was horrific.
That said - I don't see how as the new E63S is slower with more power - so the trans can't be helping it out.

There is no comparison to the ZF. While I agree a DCT is quicker - the ZF is pretty quick and smooth - and everyday driving is so much more superior than the old F10 DCT. The ZF is used everywhere for a reason.

Hehe... we disagreee… noooo!!

I didn't own any AMGs prior to a 2018 E63S so I'll bow to your experience there but you'll need to try the AMG Speedshift MCT 9-speed transmission--it's clearly not the same beast you describe and is as fast between 1st & 2nd and 2nd & 3rd as any transmission I've ever used including a PDK (try it before you get all Porsche fanboy on me ).

Is the W213 E63S really slower than its predecessor? Do you mean in perf numbers or something else? Again, probably because I know so little about earlier models but, my E63S was anything but slow--and most certainly not something caused by its transmission. It wasn't perfect--it had moods as so many seem to--but WOT + late shift at redline was a joy.

In everyday commuter driving, I agree that the ZF is superior. However, I'm steadily becoming more and more irritated by its behaviors in manual mode--perhaps that's my problem.

To your point on the ZF being used everywhere: to me, that isn't a fact that we should attribute to absolute customer satisfaction, it's more a testimony to its versatility and ruggedness. Those characteristics understandably make it attractive to manufacturers, not its ability to satisfy the gamut of performance-oriented cars it's being used in and the drivers who drive them. It is very good, no doubt, but I'd take my M6's DCT back in a heartbeat (assuming clutch slippage was addressed).

[vtknight]

Originally Posted by limeypride

Hehe... we disagreee… noooo!!

I didn't own any AMGs prior to a 2018 E63S so I'll bow to your experience there but you'll need to try the AMG Speedshift MCT 9-speed transmission--it's clearly not the same beast you describe and is as fast between 1st & 2nd and 2nd & 3rd as any transmission I've ever used including a PDK (try it before you get all Porsche fanboy on me ).

Is the W213 E63S really slower than its predecessor? Do you mean in perf numbers or something else? Again, probably because I know so little about earlier models but, my E63S was anything but slow--and most certainly not something caused by its transmission. It wasn't perfect--it had moods as so many seem to--but WOT + late shift at redline was a joy.

In everyday commuter driving, I agree that the ZF is superior. However, I'm steadily becoming more and more irritated by its behaviors in manual mode--perhaps that's my problem.

To your point on the ZF being used everywhere: to me, that isn't a fact that we should attribute to absolute customer satisfaction, it's more a testimony to its versatility and ruggedness. Those characteristics understandably make it attractive to manufacturers, not its ability to satisfy the gamut of performance-oriented cars it's being used in and the drivers who drive them. It is very good, no doubt, but I'd take my M6's DCT back in a heartbeat (assuming clutch slippage was addressed).

I have not tried the new MCT from AMG - but when I say it is slower - I meant the new E63S is slower than the F90 M5 despite the superior power and torque numbers in the Merc - so I can't see the 9 speed trans is helping/quicker there. I do think the ZF has been pretty universally positively reviewed. I agree that doesn't mean its perfect - but for me so far - it has been a great all rounder.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by Vic55

Honestly I dont know why either- maybe cause Ill actually like the car even without the exhaust.

So you are saying just 2 hard bursts on the freeway and it becomes a weak 100 mph trapper??

Not only that, the air con will be rerouted to cool the battery. My friends were laughing at me when the vent started to blow hot air after a couple of hard pulls in summer days.

[Vic55]

limeypride vtknight

I wont get into the overall E63S vs F90 battle cause Ive spoke to that many times but in regards to the MCT of AMG:

I have owned 6 variants (still have the C63 BS) and I can clearly state that the W213 TCU makes it a much better paddle shifting car than its predecessors. I will agree with Jeremy that the older versions (I had a 2010, (3) 2012's, 2013, and the W213) that they were brutally slow in manual mode no matter what drive mode I was in (S, S+, etc).

Benz really needed to and did fix the electronics in relation to the tranny as the hardware really didnt change except for the extra gears.

Having had 5 ZF's now: Jag F Type, 2 RS7's, Bentley GT3R, and now this F90; the M5 is the best of the lot and in regular non premeditated driving I often do no realize that its not a DCT. The measurable shifting speeds are so negligible and the manual requests are very fast from driver input to true gear change. I have no doubt that pure DCT vs ZF race would yield a possible DCT win due to less parasitic loss from a roll but Ill never see that race personally.

Oh Ive had 21 DCT's in my life, all have been progressively better with Porsche still arguably at the top of my list.

[Phatcat]

Forgot to mention, in last month's RT magazine, Koenigsegg himself drives a model 3 as a daily, he said it's the best contemporary "normal" daily driver.

[onfireX5]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Forgot to mention, in last month's RT magazine, Koenigsegg himself drives a model 3 as a daily, he said it's the best contemporary "normal" daily driver.

I've watched him talk about the Tesla in interviews. Interpret it as "a geopolitical thang".

[hybrid_eg]

Originally Posted by Vic55

I still want to drive a P100D.

its insane... my friend owned one for 2 days before taking it back. He returned it as range is completely inaccurate. Goal was to get it to obtain sticker as he commutes to LA frequently but one his first trip to LA when he left Irvine he had 150 miles or range and drove on economy entire way. On the way back from LA he barely made it back to fountain valley and had to look for a charger.. I had a feeling this would be the case, until these EV's have capability of 600 range i'm not getting into one.

Now performance wise, 0-60 is literally stupid. I don't see how any vehicle can compete with this.. no launch control needed just step on it. It will destroy likely anything you can run into on the streets. I test drove his back from Irvine to Newport and i was quite impressed overall with the car.. of course all of the above was done in Ludicrous mode. I'm sure driving this thing with heavy foot you will not get more than 50 miles or range but for those who just need a grocery getter it will make it that much more enjoyable.

Besides my overall EV range complaint, P100D was not impressive at 80mph+ in Ludicrous mode.. its most deadly 0-60.. if i had one id prolly kill myself, the shear rush is absolutely addicting.. me being a huge petrol head and needing to hear the engine and exhaust didn't bother me one bit, that's how impressive the acceleration is.

[somer]

Originally Posted by limeypride

LOL, those HP and torque curves... well, aren't... they're not curved at all to begin with (makes sense given the purported instantaneous torque of electric engines). 4WD acknowledged, it's no wonder this little car slays so many otherwise 'quick' cars off of the line (and, apparently, even on the track).

Aside: it's funny how the whole point of this thread (i.e. my intent behind it; I'm more than happy for others to digress) wasn't referenced even once. In reality, I was saying that the little Model 3 Performance demonstrated the inadequacies of the ZF transmission--it's simply too slow to compete in anything but well-timed launch control or manual, perfectly-timed short-shifts. In D2 or D3, the car wrings everything it can out of each gear causing the ZF to convulse into the next gear losing perhaps 0.2 or 0.3s each shift. Neither my M-DCTs nor my E63S' dual wet-clutch automatic suffered this problem. Anyhoo, 1st-world problems...

Had an extensive drive yesterday in the F90 M5 Comp and found the transmission a massive letdown in manual mode, and like I've said before it nearly kills the experince of the car for me. It's a real shame too because every other single aspect of the car is an upgrade but it feels like the tranny is 2 generations behind now. I'm really torn if I wanna get a F90 at this point. But what else is there? The panamera 8DT doens't operate the same as the old 7speed, it's shifts are sluggish as well so I guess the only option is the benz. I still need to drive an E63s.

On a sidenote, I'm not sure that everyone's F10 DCT acts the same, this is sort of my tinfoil hat moment, but I think how it's driven and how it adapts over time changes its operation. Mine in S3 shifts absolutely instant, nearly like the 7PDK does. I've only driven 1 other F10 M5 and that was a used 2013 back when I was considering my car and it definitely never felt as good and crisp as my car and how it shifts.

There's a video that comes to mind from a couple years back and how the guys car sounds when it's shifted and its this one @ 10:50. It's instant and seamless. This is how my car is.

[FloridaM5]

Originally Posted by somer

Had an extensive drive yesterday in the F90 M5 Comp and found the transmission a massive letdown in manual mode, and like I've said before it nearly kills the experince of the car for me. It's a real shame too because every other single aspect of the car is an upgrade but it feels like the tranny is 2 generations behind now. I'm really torn if I wanna get a F90 at this point. But what else is there? The panamera 8DT doens't operate the same as the old 7speed, it's shifts are sluggish as well so I guess the only option is the benz. I still need to drive an E63s.

On a sidenote, I'm not sure that everyone's F10 DCT acts the same, this is sort of my tinfoil hat moment, but I think how it's driven and how it adapts over time changes its operation. Mine in S3 shifts absolutely instant, nearly like the 7PDK does. I've only driven 1 other F10 M5 and that was a used 2013 back when I was considering my car and it definitely never felt as good and crisp as my car and how it shifts.

There's a video that comes to mind from a couple years back and how the guys car sounds when it's shifted and its this one @ 10:50. It's instant and seamless. This is how my car is.

i had the e63s before the m5, and after test driving the m5, came to the same disappointing conclusion as yourself. Ended up going the m5 route anyways cuz it was time for something new. Several weeks later, and my disappointment has left, and I'm happy with the m5 tranny now. It's quick and direct, etc ,etc. I will say this though....the version of mct that's in the e63s is something special....it's the most aggressive automatic transmission I've driven. I don't mean the most telepathic or quickest (but it's damned close). If banging (paddling) through gears manually is something you enjoy, def check it out.

[Nikolov]

I only have a couple of weeks in my F90, but I do share limey's sentiments about the gearbox.

My boss recently got a P100D and he loves it. He still drives his 991.2 TTS on longer commutes, but for city driving he definitely prefers the Tesla.

I'm having my break-in service done today and we'll soon schedule some runs of the F90 vs Tesla vs 991.2. Hopefully we can film some of it too. Hopefully I can have a JB4 installed before that, so I have a chance

[TTHURACAN]

Originally Posted by hybrid_eg

Now performance wise, 0-60 is literally stupid. I don't see how any vehicle can compete with this.. no launch control needed just step on it. It will destroy likely anything you can run into on the stree>ts

There are TT street GTRs , Lambos, and 911s that will take down any prod Tesla....

[hybrid_eg]

that's why i used the word "likely".. the vehicles you mentioned are modified up the a*# and while you can still run into them on the street they make up a negligible percentage. P100D will smoke majority of the cars it runs into on a daily basis (stoplight to stoplight). Not to mention if anything goes wrong with launch process of any of the above mentioned vehicles they will still get smoked by an unmodified "production" EV.

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by hybrid_eg

that's why i used the word "likely".. the vehicles you mentioned are modified up the a*# and while you can still run into them on the street they make up a negligible percentage. P100D will smoke majority of the cars it runs into on a daily basis (stoplight to stoplight). Not to mention if anything goes wrong with launch process of any of the above mentioned vehicles they will still get smoked by an unmodified "production" EV.

You neglected to add the "Muppet" factor which is what we IC-engine-driving guys look like priming launch control every time we're sat at a traffic light next to a Model S who's driver is playing Asteroids on his head unit.

[TTHURACAN]

Originally Posted by pet3r

I rented a p100d for a day a month before buying my M5C. The interior on the Tesla’s is shockingly poor for the price. And in a hot AZ summer, the AC had to shut off because of overheating. With sunrooof shades either, it was an awful driving experience.

The acceleration was like nothing else though! The tech was annoying, even though I love all things tech! All interactions on a screen was simply annoying, slow, and unintuitive. BMWs buttons have unique functions and you can do a lot without even looking at anything. Not so with Tesla’s. But, they are the future and one day I will likely daily drive one.

As well, it will not allow you to go into L Mode without priming the battery or warming it up first. Even the quickest model, the P100DL dies at higher speeds relative to its initial acceleration from a stop, so essentially the car is 1 dimensional in that it is great from a dig but will get beat by considerably less expensive Performance sedans from a roll which by the way use much better quality materials and design....

[TTHURACAN]

Originally Posted by hybrid_eg

that's why i used the word "likely".. the vehicles you mentioned are modified up the a*# and while you can still run into them on the street they make up a negligible percentage. P100D will smoke majority of the cars it runs into on a daily basis (stoplight to stoplight). Not to mention if anything goes wrong with launch process of any of the above mentioned vehicles they will still get smoked by an unmodified "production" EV.

All Teslas will get beat by lightly modified GTRs and 911 turbos that run low 10s in the 1/4 mile.

The ones heavily modified run 60 in less than 2s, so no comparison.

Just because many owners have issues executing LC on the F10 and F90 M5 does not mean the 911TT and GTR have the same issues, quite to the contrary.

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by TTHURACAN

All Teslas will get beat by lightly modified GTRs and 911 turbos that run low 10s in the 1/4 mile.

The ones heavily modified run 60 in less than 2s, so no comparison.

Just because many owners have issues executing LC on the F10 and F90 M5 does not mean the 911TT and GTR have the same issues, quite to the contrary.

Muppet risk still a factor.

I'm not sure why you're arguing here, statistically, the Tesla will stomp >95% (yup, I pulled that number out of my...) in light-to-light jumps... assuming it's not too cold... or too warm... or too tired juice-wise.

[TTHURACAN]

Originally Posted by limeypride

Muppet risk still a factor.

I'm not sure why you're arguing here, statistically, the Tesla will stomp >95% (yup, I pulled that number out of my...) in light-to-light jumps... assuming it's not too cold... or too warm... or too tired juice-wise.

I would expect it to as it is probably more expensive than 97%+ of the cars out there

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by TTHURACAN

I would expect it to as it is probably more expensive than 97%+ of the cars out there

touché.

[RPI-M5]

I've now crossed shopped Tesla twice against BMW, and BMW has won both times for me. Reasons:

1. I just couldn't square paying $130k+ for a Tesla with the interior fit and finish of a $40k base 3 series/Audi. Everything on the inside of the Tesla except for the central screen and instrument panel just looked and felt cheap.

2. Range Anxiety. I spend most weekends in the winter driving into the mountains for both resort and backcountry skiing. The main place where I ski requires a 90 mile drive with ~4800 feet of elevation gain, followed by the car sitting in a sub 32 degree parking lot for ~10-12 hours off a charger. Every time i've spoken with someone from Tesla on this use case, they couldn't confidently tell me I could make the round trip without having to charge up. The last thing I want to do on the way to or from the mountain is spend extra travel time charging the car.

That said, we are considering a Model Y for my wife as she wants a small SUV thats easy to operate, and good around town. Since she only drives ~5500 miles a year, 99% of her round trips are under 60 miles, and she has free EV charging at her work, it would make more sense than getting her an upgrade to her Volvo XC60.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Vic55

Those electric cars really dig well----but Im sure you didnt hear a sound as he took off LOL.

Funny Vic
How are you bro?