Why not supercharge?

[Lups]

Originally Posted by ake

And at the bottom line they are still just VWs

Have I mentioned the Russell I'm donating to you?

Shown on the left.

[KKM3]

Originally Posted by ake

And at the bottom line they are still just VWs

Lol I used to be exactly like some of you on this forum. I'm not gonna call you badge whores or anything like that because I used to be the same.

It's more like being in a box and not willing to leave and explore. Is it a comfort thing? Insecurity thing? Who knows? All I know is the day I crawled out of my box and started driving other cars besides bimmers was the day I truly started being a real car enthusiast.

[tallshortguy]

Originally Posted by KKM3

This may have been the case 3 years ago but it's a whole different ball game. I used to only drive bmws until all their cars turned into n54's n55's. I have an r8 v10 I owned a couple of Porsches including a gt3 and I have since seen the light. I hope a lot more of you will come to see the light too. Other manufacturers have really stepped up and proven that bmw is not at the top of she hill anymore. I implore you to drive other cars besides bmws to see my point.

I haven't driven the new m3 so I will still reserve judgment on the newest m model. I am really hoping I like the new engine because I really like everything else about the car.

Are you actually comparing a GT3 to non-M engined BMWs? Of course there will be a large difference. I'm not sure if this is you trying to save yourself from further backpedaling but you're not even arguing anything anymore, just making nonsense statements.

[KKM3]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Sorry, but an R8 and GT3 are approaching supercar territory. BMW doesn't have a supercar.

Audi's competitor to pretty much every M car in the lineup has always and continues to fall short.

You sure about that? I am pretty sure I've seen a few reviews where the larger m models have lost comparison tests to amg and rs models.

[KKM3]

Originally Posted by tallshortguy

Are you actually comparing a GT3 to non-M engined BMWs? Of course there will be a large difference. I'm not sure if this is you trying to save yourself from further backpedaling but you're not even arguing anything anymore, just making nonsense statements.

No I'm not comparing I'm just mentioning some of the other cars I've owned besides Bmw. Put aside the gt3 and r8. I prefer my s4 to any n55 n54 powered bmw. Please read my initial post.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by KKM3

You sure about that? I am pretty sure I've seen a few reviews where the larger m models have lost comparison tests to amg and rs models.

You're right, there are some reviews where that is the case.

The RS7 does beat the M6 GC but loses to the M5 Comp.
E63 AMG beats the RS7 in one competition and loses to it in the other.

And the RS5 loses to the M3 in almost every competition I've read.

[tallshortguy]

Originally Posted by KKM3

No I'm not comparing I'm just mentioning some of the other cars I've owned besides Bmw. Put aside the gt3 and r8. I prefer my s4 to any n55 n54 powered bmw. Please read my initial post.

I did read your initial post, you devolved into nonsense by trying to cite top of the line sportscars with BMW when talking about M cars which don't include those category of cars. Clearly the person you responded to with the R8/GT3 comment was talking about their M equivalent models, ala RS5,7 line. Simply put you're attempting to draw false comparisons, and people here aren't idiots (well most). If you want to argue about the S4 vs 335i or whatever then stick to it and those engines, stop citing supercars as to why other manufacturers are better than BMW.

[bmwm4f82]

Because of USA, you, OP.

We pay 4X what you pay for gas in Europe. You,will soon catch up, be you democrat or republican.

Enjoy what we can now. In 10-15 years our motors will be illegal to be made. I3 and I8 are clear markers of where we are heading. Politics!

So, you do not perhaps do not like the sound of the new M4....?

How about next version, fully electric? Dead silence.......

[KKM3]

Your right I should have stayed on topic, supercharging vs turbocharging.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by KKM3

Your right I should have stayed on topic, supercharging vs turbocharging.

Stick with Audi if you're that happy with the brand. No need to come here and justify it.

[KKM3]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Stick with Audi if you're that happy with the brand. No need to come here and justify it.

I'm not trying to justify anything, just trying to generate some thoughts and perspectives about turbocharging vs supercharging.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by KKM3

I'm not trying to justify anything, just trying to generate some thoughts and perspectives about turbocharging vs supercharging.

By calling BMW "fucking cheap" by your words. Way to start a civilized discussion.

[KKM3]

Originally Posted by Jockey

By calling BMW "fucking cheap" by your words. Way to start a civilized discussion.

Your right, I won't make any excuses for my language. I however still stand by my opinions of why bmw used a modified n55 engine in the new m3 m4.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by KKM3

Your right, I won't make any excuses for my language. I however still stand by my opinions of why bmw used a modified n55 engine in the new m3 m4.

Ah, the old fallback argument. You are truly doing a bang up job proving your point.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by KKM3

They don't build rs4's anymore

Actually they do (it has the same engine as the RS5). They just don't import it to North America.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HYdVXmYA-w

[shaz1410]

Originally Posted by KKM3

This may have been the case 3 years ago but it's a whole different ball game. I used to only drive bmws until all their cars turned into n54's n55's. I have an r8 v10 I owned a couple of Porsches including a gt3 and I have since seen the light. I hope a lot more of you will come to see the light too. Other manufacturers have really stepped up and proven that bmw is not at the top of she hill anymore. I implore you to drive other cars besides bmws to see my point.

I haven't driven the new m3 so I will still reserve judgment on the newest m model. I am really hoping I like the new engine because I really like everything else about the car.

I'm going to wade in here. Having owned a couple of performance audis, in the performance coupe segment. There fast well designed inside and out, sound good but god there dull. Rs5 c63 are sledgehammers m3 is a scalpel, always has been and I'm pretty sure will carry on being so. I'm not a BMW fan boy, I'm open to all manufacturers, an hour spent driving an e92 was enough to make me order the m4.

[KKM3]

Originally Posted by shaz1410

I'm going to wade in here. Having owned a couple of performance audis, in the performance coupe segment. There fast well designed inside and out, sound good but god there dull. Rs5 c63 are sledgehammers m3 is a scalpel, always has been and I'm pretty sure will carry on being so. I'm not a BMW fan boy, I'm open to all manufacturers, an hour spent driving an e92 was enough to make me order the m4.

I completely agree with how previous m3s compared to the completion in terms of handling and to me I preferred the 4.0 liter high revving v8 over the c63s engine. Time will tell if the new m3 will be up to par in my book when it comes to how the engine feels. I may very well buy the new m3 but I'm not going to go into it blind eye without driving it. I will wait and drive one first rent one for an entire day (which is what I usually do before buying a car) and probably wait until they come out with the completion package with 450 horsepower.

[jadnashuanh]

Superchargers are a load, even before they can provide much of any boost, so sitting at idle (unless you add in a clutch, and even then, some load) you're wasting some fuel without the benefit. They may not handle the engine rpm near the top and need special controls for that. Since they're engine driven, they can also affect the throttle response since it's mechanically connected and has some inertia directly geared to the engine, rather than uncoupled like in the exhaust gasses with a turbo.

A turbo uses what would be wasted energy captured from the exhaust stream. Implemented like most of the BMW engines, it provides more torque over more of the RPM-band than the supercharger does. The original turbos were usually designed for either lower power at lower rpms, but they ran out of boost higher up, or a bigger one that could make lots of boost, but did it at higher RPMs and was slower to respond. BMW gets around this normal effect by their novel control of the exhaust gasses.

A supercharger configured to let the engine run at super low RPMs with high torque wouldn't work particularly well at high RPMs with it. The drive gears from a supercharger need to be able to handle the rapid engine RPM changes between gear shifts, and that rapid change is slowed by the inertia of the thing, unlike a turbo...exhaust gasses are a lot better spring coupling than gears.

Certainly, you could engineer a system with both a turbo(s) and a SC, but because of their relative internal RPM differences, getting a SC to be able to pump much air at lower RPMs creates much bigger problems at higher ones. At some point, the parasitic load of pumping all that air means, you've limited your top end with a SC. A turbo can be engineered to dump excess, with no parasitic losses, if that happened.

All in all, they produce an engine with different characteristics...I prefer the way BMW has worked out their turbo control.

[mxa121]

Originally Posted by jadnashuanh

Superchargers are a load...
good info
good info
good info
All in all, they produce an engine with different characteristics...I prefer the way BMW has worked out their turbo control.

Nicely done

/thread

It is a curious thing that a 556hp supercharged 6.2L V8 got almost the same gas mileage as a 414hp NA 4.0L V8. I suppose it's all RPMs.
CTSV/ZL1 14/19 vs M3 14/20

[jadnashuanh]

FWIW, an engine with over 50% more displacement will be able to produce more torque just because of the displacement. It's all about how much fuel you can burn, and keeping the air/fuel ratio proper so you don't burn up the cylinder head or valves. A larger displacement engine, before either the SC or turbo is really moving much air will have an advantage at takeoff...the parasitic load comes more into play once it is running more at cruise or accelerating.

BMW's engine power ratings tend to be conservative...IOW, most engines produce more than the spec...it seems that spec is the 'low end' limit for one, and one that saw all of the stars aligned when built and the weather conditions are ideal, could have considerably more. And, you have to be careful they used the same test procedure and conditions to measure the output.

The EPA ratings, based on the procedure, call for legal speed limits...at city and highway, especially at cruise, the amount of power you need is based on the drag factor and weight...those EPA procedures never stress those engines, which are only probably using 25-30Hp to keep them moving at cruise in the speeds listed.

The EU test procedures differ, and while I haven't looked, I'd guess there's a bigger difference in their stated economy since their highway portion uses higher speeds.

[Maddict3]

Originally Posted by KKM3

I just posted the same question in another thread

For those of you who defend bmw by saying they were forced to turbocharge the new m3 to meet eu standard for mpg and emissions, I say to you this.

Why couldn't they use a supercharger ala the 3.0 tfsi engine in the Audi s4 instead of a turbocharger? A supercharger will feel naturally aspirated, deliver a linear powerband, will not muffle/mute the sound and still achieve good mpg.

My opinion is that Bmw is fucking cheap and wants to use the same engine in every freaking car they have available. Cost cutting and profits, that's really what it comes down to.

I have a 2013 s4 used as my DD and with a simple tune and pulley I'm putting close to 400awhp while achieving 20mpg city and 31mpg highway and my car weighs 4000 pounds. Imagine a similar setup in the m3 only with a higher redline. Check out my apr stage 2 s4

pulls nice.

But audi's are so boring.. no offense i've driven several s4,s5, rs5 and the new rs7 and God! the steering is horrible and no driver involvement. If i didn't decide on the M4 the next option would be AMG.

[KKM3]

Originally Posted by Maddict3

pulls nice.

But audi's are so boring.. no offense i've driven several s4,s5, rs5 and the new rs7 and God! the steering is horrible and no driver involvement. If i didn't decide on the M4 the next option would be AMG.

The s4 is not boring, It's a load of fun and the eps in the 2013 model feels great. Very accurate and quick. I had a 2007 335 and that car war boring mainly because of the engine, no character, no thrill, no excitement. I have more fun sometimes in the s4 than I do in my r8. The rear torque diff along with the Quattro awd and super responsive and satisfying supercharged six pulls you out of corners with amazing speed, sticks to the road like glue with no body roll.