[SteveChester]

Reckon that bird has a really sore head

[wesleyan92]

Originally Posted by phoenixbmwlife

That is not a testament of BMWs lack of brilliance, that is a testament that the competition has gotten brilliant also. With that said I still prefer to drive a bmw over a Mercedes or Audi because of the way I feel in a Bimmer.

I 100% agree; granted I am a fan boi and there is familiarity but I just like the way BMWs drive compared to Audis and MBs.

I also prefer the idrive compared to Audi's MMI....don't even get me started on MBs.

Again my bias maybe due to familiarity but I'd like to think there is some science behind my preferences

[MrFargo13]

Looks like he drove under a flying elephant!

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by elitex

Massacre on a track? Come on, you don't really believe that do you?

You be the judge:

Picture of Alfa Romeo Giulia QV
Alfa Romeo Giulia QV
Twin Turbo V6
510 ps (503 bhp)
1703 kg (3754 lbs)
299 ps / tonne
Picture of BMW M5 F90 Competition (F90)
BMW M5 F90 Competition (F90)
V8 Biturbo
626 ps (617 bhp)
750 Nm (553 lb-ft)
1894 kg (4176 lbs)
330 ps / tonne
Lap Times 2
Giulia QV M5 F90 Competition
Hockenheim Short 1:12.40 1:10.40
Sachsenring 1:37.37 1:33.93
Performance
Giulia QV M5 F90 Competition
Kerb weight
Top speed 307 kph (191 mph) 305 kph (190 mph)
0 - 40 kph 1.4 s 1.2 s
0 - 50 kph 1.7 s 1.3 s
0 - 100 kph 3.8 s 3.1 s
0 - 130 kph 5.7 s 4.7 s
0 - 160 kph 7.9 s 6.7 s
0 - 180 kph 10.8 s 8.5 s
0 - 200 kph 12.3 s 10.3 s
0 - 60 mph 3.6 s 3.0 s
0 - 100 mph 8.1 s 6.8 s
0 - 130 mph 13.8 s 11.0 s
0 - 150 mph 19.9 s 15.3 s
Est. 1/8 mile 8.3 s @ 92.6 mph 7.3 s @ 103.8 mph
1/4 mile 11.8 s 11.0 s @ 130.0 mph
Est. 1 mile 32.4 s @ 167.1 mph 30.4 s @ 169.0 mph
60 - 100 kph (4) 2.5 s 2.3 s
60 - 100 kph (5) 3.3 s 3.1 s
80 - 120 kph (4) 3.9 s 2.5 s
80 - 120 kph (5) 3.4 s 3.0 s
80 - 120 kph (6) 4.4 s 4.1 s
80 - 120 kph (7) 6.6 s 5.3 s
80 - 120 kph (8) 12.4 s 9.1 s
80 - 160 kph (4) 8.1 s 5.2 s
80 - 160 kph (5) 9.6 s 6.5 s
80 - 160 kph (6) 12.5 s 8.9 s
Est. 100 - 200 kph 9.0 s 7.4 s
Est. 0 - 100 mph - 0 13.5 s @ 1076 ft 11.2 s @ 896 ft
Est. max acceleration 0.71 g (7 m/s²) 1.03 g (10 m/s²)
100 kph - 0 31 m (102 ft) 32 m (104 ft)
200 kph - 0 126 m (415 ft) 126 m (414 ft)
18m slalom 70.6 kph (43.9 mph) 70.0 kph (43.5 mph)
Fuel economy 9.8 l/100 km (24 mpg US / 29 mpg UK) 10.7 l/100 km (22 mpg US / 26 mpg UK)
Lateral acceleration 1.17 g (11 m/s²) 1.00 g (10 m/s²)

[Powerslide]

Cliffs Notes Version of Prior Post:

Lap Times 2
Giulia QV M5 F90 Competition
Hockenheim Short 1:12.40 1:10.40
Sachsenring 1:37.37 1:33.93

2 full seconds faster on Hockenheim Short, 3.4 seconds faster on Sachsenring.

This should not be surprising, given that the M3/M4 (competition and "civic" versions) are faster on most tracks vs. the QV, yet the QV was supposedly a 7:32 on the Nurburgring whereas the M4 "civic" was 7:52. At the same time, the F90 M5 and F90 M5C have been consistently much faster than the M3/M4 and the QV on pretty much every track (except the Nurburgring, which is such a gross outlier vs. the relative other track times for the QV).

QV is a great performance sedan - no doubt about it - and I'm sure it's great on the track just like the M models. But judging the QV's track performance based upon the 7:32 Nurburgring is so grossly misleading (relative to the QV vs. similar cars' laptimes on other tracks) that it should not even be considered.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by philip

Why not? That's only 1,7% difference, the M8 Competition has a newer chassis and a lower center of gravity, weighs around the same though.

BMW M chief said the M8 is 24mm lower than the M5 and they did a lot to the connection of the chassis to the body, so the front end is a lot stiffer and steering feels different, it's not just a two door version of the M5.

BMW claimed it is the fastest BMW around the ring to date, although BMW have not released an official time.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by somer

Has Pirelli's on it, figure a bit quicker with michelins (5-6secs?)

Has anyone actually put a M5 on track and compare between the two tires? I mean I see here all the time people claimed Michelins are much better than Pirellis but at the same time Sport Auto and Auto Bild all raved about the Pirellis.....Never in their reviews did they say they wish they had the Michelins.

Maybe Letimer (forgot his exact user name) can shine on this?

[turbo8765]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

BMW M chief said the M8 is 24mm lower than the M5 and they did a lot to the connection of the chassis to the body, so the front end is a lot stiffer and steering feels different, it's not just a two door version of the M5.

BMW claimed it is the fastest BMW around the ring to date, although BMW have not released an official time.

Sure they made a couple tweaks, but the reality is it’s a 2 door M5.

[rjd598]

Originally Posted by turbo8765

Sure they made a couple tweaks, but the reality is it’s a 2 door M5.

and the reality is it will also be faster than the m5

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Has anyone actually put a M5 on track and compare between the two tires? I mean I see here all the time people claimed Michelins are much better than Pirellis but at the same time Sport Auto and Auto Bild all raved about the Pirellis.....Never in their reviews did they say they wish they had the Michelins.

Maybe Letimer (forgot his exact user name) can shine on this?

I could...

Pirellis are a much softer compound giving them an edge until they temp out and begin to marble and chunk like crazy. Michelin needs to be worked more to get some heat in the tires as they're slightly harder compound but have a higher operating temp.

Some other things...

- That wasn't a good lap at all for many reasons.

- Giulia QV was on Trofeo's

- GT63s was on Sport Cup 2 RFT and had the AMG Performance Aero Kit

- Factory lap time for stock F90 Comp is just slightly quicker than M4 GTS.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by lemetier

I could...

Pirellis are a much softer compound giving them an edge until they temp out and begin to marble and chunk like crazy. Michelin needs to be worked more to get some heat in the tires as they're slightly harder compound but have a higher operating temp.

Some other things...

- That wasn't a good lap at all for many reasons.

- Giulia QV was on Trofeo's

- GT63s was on Sport Cup 2 RFT and had the AMG Performance Aero Kit

- Factory lap time for stock F90 Comp is just slightly quicker than M4 GTS.

So for Sport Auto test, since they only do two laps (one warm up and one flying) is it fair to say the Pirellis will do just fine? Or even have a little advantage since they are softer?

And what about your everyday use? Since I don't think most drivers will be able to put enough heat in the tires....

[Big boi m5]

Originally Posted by AD18

I picked up numerous occasions on that video where the ZF sounded really sluggish and slushy. A real shame the aren't crisp gear changes like on a DCT.

I tracked a ZF6 and you're correct imo. It's mushy and slow under high revs.. I'm sure the 8 is similiar. It's a commuter transmission at its core.

I'd rather see an SMg or DCT tbh.

[TheEnrique]

lol 3:56

[535i MSport]

So funny to read all the excitement about Nürburgring lap times. I wonder how many armchair experts have actually driven it?

I also wonder how many armchair experts have driven the Alfa, M5, M3 comp, C63S etc. Irrespective of Nurburgring lap times, they drive very differently.

I am lucky enough to live within a long day's drive from the Nurburgring and have driven around it in my long gone F10 530d and turned in a 10 minute lap which sounds slow, but was a lot of fun.

I would urge anyone who hasn't been to the 'Ring, to go and take your own car if at all possible.

I have also driven the Alfa and M5 and own an M3C and C63S. I would expect to be able to put in similar times in the M3C and C63S, with the M3 being a bit more agile, but down on power. The Alfa would Be similar I suspect, but the M5 would be a bit more of a handful due to its size and monster power. Obviously a pro driver would be able to exploit this.

What would be an interesting test, would be to get an average driver to take these cars around and see what their time was, as that would show how accessible the performance is.

If you google Suzuki Swift Ring rental car, you will see that sometimes less is more, unless you are a seasoned professional or at least experienced!

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

So for Sport Auto test, since they only do two laps (one warm up and one flying) is it fair to say the Pirellis will do just fine? Or even have a little advantage since they are softer?

And what about your everyday use? Since I don't think most drivers will be able to put enough heat in the tires....

Actually, no it wouldn't. Going all out on a Nordschleife time attempt is going to put the tires above their optimal temp range limit (80°C Pirelli PZ4*/85°C Michelin PS4S*). Softer compounds (not to be confused with stickier) fall off a cliff when overheated leading to a cycle of destructive temperature and friction states. Warmest I've taken them is 105°C and the difference between the failure modes of the two is markedly different.

That lap was compromised from the moment the phone started ringing. PZ4 v PS4S wouldn't have made any meaningful difference.

For every day use, I'd prefer anything that isn't the Pirelli solely based on the howl that develops over time due to treadwear.

Originally Posted by SleepingBMW

I tracked a ZF6 and you're correct imo. It's mushy and slow under high revs.. I'm sure the 8 is similiar. It's a commuter transmission at its core.

I'd rather see an SMg or DCT tbh.

They're completely different.

[somer]

Originally Posted by lemetier

Actually, no it wouldn't. Going all out on a Nordschleife time attempt is going to put the tires above their optimal temp range limit (80°C Pirelli PZ4*/85°C Michelin PS4S*). Softer compounds (not to be confused with stickier) fall off a cliff when overheated leading to a cycle of destructive temperature and friction states. Warmest I've taken them is 105°C and the difference between the failure modes of the two is markedly different.

That lap was compromised from the moment the phone started ringing. PZ4 v PS4S wouldn't have made any meaningful difference.

For every day use, I'd prefer anything that isn't the Pirelli solely based on the howl that develops over time due to treadwear.



They're completely different.

Good to see you back posting, some of us almost sent out a search party

Originally Posted by AD18

I picked up numerous occasions on that video where the ZF sounded really sluggish and slushy. A real shame the aren't crisp gear changes like on a DCT.

A real shame indeed .

[mxchris727]

Originally Posted by 535i MSport

So funny to read all the excitement about Nürburgring lap times. I wonder how many armchair experts have actually driven it?

I also wonder how many armchair experts have driven the Alfa, M5, M3 comp, C63S etc. Irrespective of Nurburgring lap times, they drive very differently.

I am lucky enough to live within a long day's drive from the Nurburgring and have driven around it in my long gone F10 530d and turned in a 10 minute lap which sounds slow, but was a lot of fun.

I would urge anyone who hasn't been to the 'Ring, to go and take your own car if at all possible.

I have also driven the Alfa and M5 and own an M3C and C63S. I would expect to be able to put in similar times in the M3C and C63S, with the M3 being a bit more agile, but down on power. The Alfa would Be similar I suspect, but the M5 would be a bit more of a handful due to its size and monster power. Obviously a pro driver would be able to exploit this.

What would be an interesting test, would be to get an average driver to take these cars around and see what their time was, as that would show how accessible the performance is.

If you google Suzuki Swift Ring rental car, you will see that sometimes less is more, unless you are a seasoned professional or at least experienced!

Originally Posted by 535i MSport

So funny to read all the excitement about Nürburgring lap times. I wonder how many armchair experts have actually driven it?

I also wonder how many armchair experts have driven the Alfa, M5, M3 comp, C63S etc. Irrespective of Nurburgring lap times, they drive very differently.

I am lucky enough to live within a long day's drive from the Nurburgring and have driven around it in my long gone F10 530d and turned in a 10 minute lap which sounds slow, but was a lot of fun.

I would urge anyone who hasn't been to the 'Ring, to go and take your own car if at all possible.

I have also driven the Alfa and M5 and own an M3C and C63S. I would expect to be able to put in similar times in the M3C and C63S, with the M3 being a bit more agile, but down on power. The Alfa would Be similar I suspect, but the M5 would be a bit more of a handful due to its size and monster power. Obviously a pro driver would be able to exploit this.

What would be an interesting test, would be to get an average driver to take these cars around and see what their time was, as that would show how accessible the performance is.

If you google Suzuki Swift Ring rental car, you will see that sometimes less is more, unless you are a seasoned professional or at least experienced!

10000x

I drove the ring about a month ago in a 2019 120i- as silly as the three cylinder and cheap ties were it was a BLAST. That track really brings out the dynamics in cars. I'm no pro driver, but it's not hard to see exactly what kind of car would be super enjoyable - manual/DTC is a must with the technicality of the course.

[brad850csi]

Originally Posted by somer

Good to see you back posting, some of us almost sent out a search party



A real shame indeed .

I missed Liam too

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by lemetier

Actually, no it wouldn't. Going all out on a Nordschleife time attempt is going to put the tires above their optimal temp range limit (80°C Pirelli PZ4*/85°C Michelin PS4S*). Softer compounds (not to be confused with stickier) fall off a cliff when overheated leading to a cycle of destructive temperature and friction states. Warmest I've taken them is 105°C and the difference between the failure modes of the two is markedly different.

That lap was compromised from the moment the phone started ringing. PZ4 v PS4S wouldn't have made any meaningful difference.

For every day use, I'd prefer anything that isn't the Pirelli solely based on the howl that develops over time due to treadwear.

They're completely different.

Well I guess that settles it, get Michelins if you can!

[IB M]

Originally Posted by Ghostriderf80

If that is true and the C63s will be faster than the M3 w better looks I think I may switch.

You have to be over 60 years old to drive a Mercedes. 65 is better really.

[Ghostriderf80]

Originally Posted by IB M

You have to be over 60 years old to drive a Mercedes. 65 is better really.

Good point. I guess I should just try out the Alfa

[IB M]

Originally Posted by dezzracer

https://carbuzz.com/news/bmw-m3-cs-i...he-nurburgring

Couple seconds faster than the M3 CS. M5 heavier for sure, but also up 150 HP and 2 cylinders. Not bad little 3.

M4CS data point