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      02-18-2020, 08:15 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
That's the point though, nothing is really that slow nowadays, safer for sure, but also definitely quicker. I remember in high school thinking a V6 Beretta GT was pretty fast. Now every 4 cylinder Camry/Accord and probably Corollas/Civics can beat those.
I learned to drive in a Renault 12. Very little potential for mischief in that sorry piece of automotive detritus. Timing it from 0-60 you'd need a calendar, not a stopwatch. If it's after Halloween, better bring next year's calendar just to be safe.
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      02-18-2020, 08:17 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
The difference is how the car gets to 90 MPH+. Some cars take an eternity to get to those speeds while others can do it under 10. Many times cars which are $hit boxes are more forgiving with poor driver inputs. Which brings up the topic of graduated licensing which has been discussed here before.
This took place in the new car market after the oil crisis of the 1970s. Horsepower was severely limited and there was a pretty linear relationship between horsepower and affordability. My first 2 Sciroccos had 75 HP. My last one had 90 HP. My next car had 145 HP which I took to just under 200HP.

That is a progression of about 5 years. Now any fool with 20,000 can go out and buy a used 500 HP E60 M5. And that takes us back to the airport accident in which the HS students died.

There needs to be a graduated driving license system. My daughter went from a 145 HP Ford Fusion to the 328d to a 328i in about 5 years and I monitored her driving assiduously. She's still a bit quick but she comes by it honestly.
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      02-18-2020, 08:31 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
...
There needs to be a graduated driving license system....
This. Let us demonstrate our skills, and let our licences reflect those skills relative to other drivers. If I can ace a car control course without hitting any cones and with a faster time than 99% of the other drivers, I should be able to legally drive faster than they can.
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      02-18-2020, 08:33 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
This. Let us demonstrate our skills, and let our licences reflect those skills relative to other drivers. If I can ace a car control course without hitting any cones and with a faster time than 99% of the other drivers, I should be able to legally drive faster than they can.
Yes. And with a placard affixed prominently on the front and rear of the vehicle to let the cops and other drivers know that this is a higher level driver so get out of the way and don't give me a ticket!!
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      02-18-2020, 08:39 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Yes. And with a placard affixed prominently on the front and rear of the vehicle to let the cops and other drivers know that this is a higher level driver so get out of the way and don't give me a ticket!!
A-fucking-men. The fatal flaw in this fantasy would be the speed differential between us and the "lesser" drivers. It seems to work in Germany, but I can't see it working in the US because of the entitled attitudes and general absence of the notion of driving as an activity that's worth excelling at, or at least staying the fuck out of the way of the people who do.
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      02-18-2020, 09:44 PM   #50
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Drive around any major city in the US and you come to realize that the closer you get to a city, the more insanely people drive. Around Chicago you'll find people plodding along at 45-50 in the left lane and NASCAR wannabe's driving 80-90 while zipping across multiple lanes. It's pure insanity.
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      02-18-2020, 10:01 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by M_Six View Post
Drive around any major city in the US and you come to realize that the closer you get to a city, the more insanely people drive. Around Chicago you'll find people plodding along at 45-50 in the left lane and NASCAR wannabe's driving 80-90 while zipping across multiple lanes. It's pure insanity.
Not to condone the activity of the race car driver wanna be's. But I would venture to say most of this activity would disappear if the idiots and entitled aholes get the heck out of the left lane. Casey Putsch did a couple of Youtube videos on this very topic. One of them he had a cop ride along with him making comments about how bad drivers are with respecting the left lane.

Just because you're driving the speed limit, doesn't entitle you to drive that way on the passing lane. These people are contributing to the problem and in many ways are being passive aggressive; essentially road raging too.

And a point that was brought up in one of Casey's videos was the affect the lack of lane discipline has on public safety in general. There have been many times emergency vehicles have had a hard time getting through clogged highways because some idiot is marking their territory by camping in the left lane while a whole train of cars are trying to get around this moron. Now imagine an emergency vehicle coming up on this mess. I know. I've experienced this issue first hand as a driver of the meat wagon for my station.
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      02-18-2020, 10:07 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Not to condone the activity of the race car driver wanna be's. But I would venture to say most of this activity would disappear if the idiots and entitled aholes get the heck out of the left lane. Casey Putsch did a couple of Youtube videos on this very topic. One of them he had a cop ride along with him making comments about how bad drivers are with respecting the left lane.

Just because you're driving the speed limit, doesn't entitle you to drive that way on the passing lane. These people are contributing to the problem and in many ways are being passive aggressive; essentially road raging too.

And a point that was brought up in one of Casey's videos was the affect the lack of lane discipline has on public safety in general. There have been many times emergency vehicles have had a hard time getting through clogged highways because some idiot is marking their territory by camping in the left lane while a whole train of cars are trying to get around this moron. Now imagine an emergency vehicle coming up on this mess. I know. I've experienced this issue first hand as a driver of the meat wagon for my station.
Totally agree. The idiot plodding along at or below the speed limit in the left lane is just as dangerous as the idiot zipping in and out of traffic. I can't tell you how many times I've seen some moron merge onto the highway on the right and continue directly across to the left lane even though there was no reason to be in the left lane. Lane discipline is non-existent in the US. And the left lane hog laws in IL are a total joke.
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      02-18-2020, 10:08 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
This. Let us demonstrate our skills, and let our licences reflect those skills relative to other drivers. If I can ace a car control course without hitting any cones and with a faster time than 99% of the other drivers, I should be able to legally drive faster than they can.
I say tighten up the skills required to get a license in the first place. People are quick to point out driving is a privilege. Well, it should be treated as such.

This isn't that far off from how licenses are given out in this country:

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      02-18-2020, 10:26 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
I say tighten up the skills required to get a licensing in the first place. People are quick to point out driving is a privilege. Well, it should be treated as such.

This isn't that far off from how licenses are given out in this country:

+1

It's treated as much more of a privilege elsewhere, like in Europe. We used to see someone driving shitty and joke that they got their license in a box of Cracker Jack...and sadly, it's not far from the truth.

It's all driven (get it?) by selfish and narcissistic parents. The parents are eager for the kids to be able to drive themselves around, and especially for the older ones to be able to drive the younger ones around. The parents want drivers' license exams to be a rubber-stamp. That way they (the parents) can focus on...you know...important shit...like spending an extra 6 or 8 hours a week under their bosses' desks. Or driving themselves an hour each way to take a Pilates class from the hot new instructor. Or taking the buxom new admin out to happy hour. Anything other than - God forbid - spending time with their kids. Even if it means the kids are shitty drivers and a hazard to themselves and their fellow motorists. It's totally worth it to be able to spend a couple of hours swilling beer and staring at the new admin's tits.
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      02-18-2020, 10:34 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by M_Six View Post
Drive around any major city in the US and you come to realize that the closer you get to a city, the more insanely people drive. Around Chicago you'll find people plodding along at 45-50 in the left lane and NASCAR wannabe's driving 80-90 while zipping across multiple lanes. It's pure insanity.
Same here in Minneapolis/St. Paul. It's the land of the careful and the polite, and the other 10% of us who have shit to do and the horsepower to get it done.
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      02-18-2020, 10:40 PM   #56
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Totally agree. The idiot plodding along at or below the speed limit in the left lane is just as dangerous as the idiot zipping in and out of traffic. I can't tell you how many times I've seen some moron merge onto the highway on the right and continue directly across to the left lane even though there was no reason to be in the left lane. Lane discipline is non-existent in the US. And the left lane hog laws in IL are a total joke.
We have some sort of "get the fuck out of the left lane if you're not hauling ass" law here in Minnesota, but it's not enforced at all. I'd venture a guess that I could pay a year's worth of "left lane lollygagging" tickets statewide with the change I've got under my couch cushions.
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      02-18-2020, 10:41 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
+1

It's treated as much more of a privilege elsewhere, like in Europe. We used to see someone driving shitty and joke that they got their license in a box of Cracker Jack...and sadly, it's not far from the truth.

It's all driven (get it?) by selfish and narcissistic parents. The parents are eager for the kids to be able to drive themselves around, and especially for the older ones to be able to drive the younger ones around. The parents want drivers' license exams to be a rubber-stamp. That way they (the parents) can focus on...you know...important shit...like spending an extra 6 or 8 hours a week under their bosses' desks. Or driving themselves an hour each way to take a Pilates class from the hot new instructor. Or taking the buxom new admin out to happy hour. Anything other than - God forbid - spending time with their kids. Even if it means the kids are shitty drivers and a hazard to themselves and their fellow motorists. It's totally worth it to be able to spend a couple of hours swilling beer and staring at the new admin's tits.
It begins a lot earlier than that. I'm astonished by the number of "parents" which just zone out at various kids places such as playgrounds at restaurants and indoor playgrounds. Every time I go to these places with my daughter I see most parents with their attention else where. Many of them with their beaks buried into their smart phones. Totally oblivious to the bad behavior being exhibited by their kids towards other kids.

I remember one indoor playground where one of the parents complimented me on the manners of my daughter. That's because I'm watching her and on her immediately when she gets out of line. Meanwhile I witness time and time again where the absentee parent's kids are out of control. Knocking kids over, being overly aggressive with getting on certain play equipment, and being physically abusive. I almost lost my $hit with this boy today when he started to physically hit my daughter. Thankfully, the parents jumped on him quickly. So I calmed down. That's not always the case.
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      02-18-2020, 10:51 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
It begins a lot earlier than that. I'm astonished by the number of "parents" which just zone out at various kids places such as playgrounds at restaurants and indoor playgrounds. Every time I go to these places with my daughter I see most parents with their attention else where. Many of them with their beaks buried into their smart phones. Totally oblivious to the bad behavior being exhibited by their kids towards other kids.

I remember one indoor playground where one of the parents complimented me on the manners of my daughter. That's because I'm watching her and on her immediately when she gets out of line. Meanwhile I witness time and time again where the absentee parent's kids are out of control. Knocking kids over, being overly aggressive with getting on certain play equipment, and being physically abusive. I almost lost my $hit with this boy today when he started to physically hit my daughter. Thankfully, the parents jumped on him quickly. So I calmed down. That's not always the case.
Yup, I've seen the same thing. It's a combination of self-absorbed parents, and a couple of decades' worth of shitty "pop psychology" parenting self-help books that claimed that you can't ever correct a child in any way because doing so will forever extinguish the fragile flame of their soul. And that any physical punishment is abuse. Children parented this way end up as unsocialized monsters.

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      02-19-2020, 01:33 AM   #59
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An old dude I worked with 30 years ago used to say "Ain't nothing open after midnight 'cept legs." There's some wisdom there.
And that’s the main reason we were all out past that time. I had a lot of good things happen in my life past midnight and quite a few not good things with some pretty bad things but if I had to do it all over again, I’d do it again.
Don’t tell my kids I said that though.

I forgot what the topic started as and didn’t mean to come across crass.
Horrible news for the kids and for their families. Nothing can be worse then losing a child. My condolences
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      02-19-2020, 01:06 PM   #60
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my truck is capable of 90mph, takes a good half an hour to get there.

Oh don't worry he'll wait.

The issue isn't safety systems. Most new cars already have what I consider to be "new driver mode" with blind spot monitoring, lane assist, and backup sensors/cameras.

Parenting is the issue. My first vehicle was decently powerful, but I never got a ticket because I was afraid of what would happen if I did. You can put all the safety nannies on cars you want, kids will still find a way to do something dumb if they want to.
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      02-20-2020, 01:13 PM   #61
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This seems a good place to put in a plug for the Tire Rack Street Survival class. If I had kids, it would be mandatory before they were out alone. I instructed at one last year as a favor to one of our club instructors who runs it, and was very impressed. It was also a ton of fun to watch totally newbie drivers learn things like what ABS feels like, or that the steering wheel goes more than halfway around. As others have stated above, it isn't the raw skills (lap times or car control), it is the judgement and tactical awareness. Teens have the best coordination and eyesight, the fastest reaction times, yet they are the most dangerous. The exact opposite is true of older adults (worst physical abilities, least risk).

For you car-buying parents: get something safe but uninspiring, and remove the back seat. Statistics continue to support that you DOUBLE the risk with each additional passenger, so a 2 seater has 1/4 the risk of a car full (another win for Miatas?). And most insurance carriers will be happy to set you up with a full array of safety and monitoring software if you ask.
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Originally Posted by M_Six View Post
Totally agree. The idiot plodding along at or below the speed limit in the left lane is just as dangerous as the idiot zipping in and out of traffic. I can't tell you how many times I've seen some moron merge onto the highway on the right and continue directly across to the left lane even though there was no reason to be in the left lane. Lane discipline is non-existent in the US. And the left lane hog laws in IL are a total joke.
Here in Minnesota people are gutless as fuck and pathologically conflict-averse. Nobody will accelerate and nobody will pass anyone, because it might be seen as an act of aggression or boldness, or it might call attention to the person doing 52 mph in the left lane of a 70-mph freeway, which is seen as unkind for some inexplicable reason.

Countless times I've come upon a "clot" of 10 or 12 cars all bunched-up and oozing down a 3 or 4-lane stretch of freeway at or just below the posted limit and taking up all the lanes. My first hunch is always that there's a Highway Patrol or a city copper in the clot somewhere, which would perfectly explain why nobody's speeding up. Nope, almost never the case. It's just a zombie or two, and maybe a Millennial on his cell phone texting his boyfriend a picture of his 3" weiner, and the other 10 people are too scared or polite to pass them. I, on the other hand, am 0% scared and about 2% polite so I usually find a way to bust through. I get the finger and fists shaken at me, because they're embarrassed that I just showed them what shitty, pokey drivers they are.
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      02-20-2020, 03:34 PM   #63
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I only spent a year in Minneapolis, but my impression was that there were a lot of self-righteous a-holes who would intentionally pull out to block you if they thought you were going too fast. I filed it in my 'Minnesota Nice' file (along with that habit of always being right up your butt - like taking the table next to yours even if nobody else in the restaurant, the machine next to you at the gym, and bumping you while standing in line).
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      02-20-2020, 03:42 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
I only spent a year in Minneapolis, but my impression was that there were a lot of self-righteous a-holes who would intentionally pull out to block you if they thought you were going too fast. I filed it in my 'Minnesota Nice' file (along with that habit of always being right up your butt - like taking the table next to yours even if nobody else in the restaurant, the machine next to you at the gym, and bumping you while standing in line).
Agree 100%. California has movie stars, Utah has Mormons, and we have passive-aggressive dickheads.
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      02-20-2020, 04:14 PM   #65
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Lol....come to SC and watch the early morning scramble to the BMW plant. I typically stay in the far right lane where most are running about 5 mph over, and we watch the other two lanes as that is where the BMW workers who waited to the last minute to make their shift compete to see who can cut off the others first and race.
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      02-20-2020, 04:25 PM   #66
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Agree 100%. California has movie stars, Utah has Mormons, and we have passive-aggressive dickheads.
We have them, as well.

There are even signs on the interstate telling them that the fast lane is for passing only but they still ignore them. I even stick my arm out of the window and point at the sign at times for the blithering idiots to no avail.
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Lewi6, First of His Name, Destroyer of Careers, Master of Pole Positions, 6X WDC, Master of All Tracks, Scorer of Maximum Points, Whisperer of Tires, Minimizer of Fuel Utilization, Maximizer of Consistency in Finishing. Look Upon Him With DRED.
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