S55 vs N54

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by TurboSid

N54 has no where to go but upgraded turbos.

S55 is just getting started

I'm not hating, i was an n54 guy a week ago, but this isn't the e90/92 M platform... they were N/A so they didn't have much room to make power without going F/I.

S55 will need a flash to go waaay further unless they plan to run meth on upgraded turbos.

The moment a flash comes for further fueling fine tuning, the S55 will go thru the roof.

[e92livin]

Originally Posted by ASAP

S55 will need a flash to go waaay further unless they plan to run meth on upgraded turbos.

The moment a flash comes for further fueling fine tuning, the S55 will go thru the roof.

Agreed, This is just the beginning for the platform. I feel that it will be easily a 650whp once its FBO + Meth.

[ASAP]

the motors r very similar

Straight 6s
twin turbod
direct injected
3.0L displacement

Thats a lot to compare. The rest; internals and so forth have no meaning until much higher power levels. The N54 has done 750 whp on an open block with a much less motor sport ready configuration than the s55.

The 2 biggest differences in my
mind are redline/powerband and turbos. The redline/powerband doesn't have nearly as much meaning as people think it will as these cars r both shifted much before redline for peak power. The turbos r the absolute biggest difference... but then what if an N54 w a set of rb's rolls by? Are they then that much diffefent in any aspect thats usable?

Things to think about.

[Dalko43]

Originally Posted by e92livin

Agreed, This is just the beginning for the platform. I feel that it will be easily a 650whp once its FBO + Meth.

Though I own a turbo car (335is) I am going to claim ignorance on the full capabilities/limitations of tuning a turbo engine. Just how far can an aftermarket tuner, or even a BMW M performance tune, boost the S55's performance? I mean in a way that provides reliable and realistic performance?

I have heard that the aftermarket can tune the N54 to get +100hp/+100lb-ft, and still maintain decent reliability, but anything beyond that and you really start to risk engine failure or some other breakdown (I know people have upgraded their turbos and rebuilt their engines and cooling systems to mitigate those risks as they take the N54 to higher HP/Tq levels).

I was under the impression that the S55 was already running at a higher boost than the N54/N55 and that, in a sense, it was already tuned to a higher level of performance. The N54/N55 family of engines gets around 300hp/300lb-ft and the 335is/1m tuned N54 gets about 320-330hp/370lb-ft. The S55, using different internals, different cooling, and a different engine tune, but based on the same engine architecture, is getting 425hp/405lb-ft...how much more can a tune give that engine without significantly reducing reliability?

[e92livin]

The F8x screams N54 from the exhaust note to tuning capabilities. Terry at burger tuning already has a jb4 prototype for the f8x. yes, the engine is different from the N54/N55 but there's no denying it has all the traits from those motors.

[TurboSid]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I believe this was an engine only discussion...

the motors r very similar

Straight 6s
twin turbod
direct injected
3.0L displacement

Thats a lot to compare. The rest; internals and so forth have no meaning until much higher power levels. The N54 has done 750 whp on an open block with a much less motor sport ready configuration than the s55.

The 2 biggest differences in my
mind are redline/powerband and turbos. The redline/powerband doesn't have nearly as much meaning as people think it will as these cars r both shifted much before redline for peak power. The turbos r the absolute biggest difference... but then what if an N54 w a set of rb's rolls by? Are they then that much diffefent in any aspect thats usable?

Things to think about.

Uhh how about Closed deck and forged internals? A more stout motor that will handle more boost better than the n54. Its an evolution of that motor... 335 guys shouldn't be butt hurt over it.

[Fanta]

It look like a different cooling concept.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1015603

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by TurboSid

Uhh how about Closed deck and forged internals? A more stout motor that will handle more boost better than the n54. Its an evolution of that motor... 335 guys shouldn't be butt hurt over it.

How does that have any meaning until higher power levels? Are there any N54 internal issues you know of? I don't... you could have at least argued cooling which I would agree 100% with.

[Dalko43]

Originally Posted by TurboSid

Uhh how about Closed deck and forged internals? A more stout motor that will handle more boost better than the n54. Its an evolution of that motor... 335 guys shouldn't be butt hurt over it.

If you had truly read his post, you would have seen that he addressed the internals of the S55, if only in passing. And no one is butt hurt over the S55 being an advancement and "evolution" of the N54/N55 engines...rather a lot on this thread are excited about what kind of performance the S55 can deliver and are interested in benchmarking it against the N54 to see how much of an advancement the S55 is.

[6underpressure]

I'm no expert but if I had to guess the s55 picks up where the n54 leaves off (stock turbos- FBO)

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Dalko43

If you had truly read his post, you would have seen that he addressed the internals of the S55, if only in passing. And no one is butt hurt over the S55 being an advancement and "evolution" of the N54/N55 engines...rather a lot on this thread are excited about what kind of performance the S55 can deliver and are interested in benchmarking it against the N54 to see how much of an advancement the S55 is.

I don't see any reason for 335 owners (like me) to be hurt at all when folks compare this quite nice turbo motor to their 335. It IS an evolution of that motor.

[ASAP]

I do wish BMW did increase the displacement in the S55 a bit to a 3.2L a la S54. Then less people would be complaining about the similarities between the non M motors. I honestly don't care if the motor isn't much different in design than an N54/N55 as long as it's a good motor which it obviously is. Increasing displacement would have made it very special.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

I believe that is functionally a fact. Perhaps the power curve would be slightly different, but largely a tune of an N54 or N55 would yield VERY similar output.

Definitely not a tune... all bolt on's, different fuel (e85 / meth) and a protune would (which is all out for an N54... N55 lol, that wouldn't even come close). You can see a race between that setup and an S55. The S55 stock has much larger turbos and that is its most significant and telling difference... the power and reliability potential of the S55 is faaaar greater.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Definitely not a tune... all bolt on's, different fuel (e85 / meth) and a protune would (which is all out for an N54... N55 lol, that wouldn't even come close). You can see a race between that setup and an S55. The S55 stock has much larger turbos and that is its most significant and telling difference... the power and reliability potential of the S55 is faaaar greater.

I just went to Burger and pulled this off their site:

How about up to 80hp to the wheels (100hp crank) on a completely stock car, up to 160hp to the wheels on factory turbos, or up to 350hp to the wheels on a fully modified car with larger turbo(s)? The JB4 includes a simple plug and play installation harness and is compatible with all ECU versions and transmission types. It's everything you need to take your N54 powered vehicle from mild to wild!

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

I just went to Burger and pulled this off their site:

How about up to 80hp to the wheels (100hp crank) on a completely stock car, up to 160hp to the wheels on factory turbos, or up to 350hp to the wheels on a fully modified car with larger turbo(s)? The JB4 includes a simple plug and play installation harness and is compatible with all ECU versions and transmission types. It's everything you need to take your N54 powered vehicle from mild to wild!

Man those words are blowing smoke up your ass.

Well if you can find me an N54 that only has a tune and dyno's 425 WHP... I will sell you my ocean side land in Idaho for very very cheap.

Yes, 80 to the wheels... so when the N54 dynos 270 WHP stock and you add 80 WHP, then you are at 350 WHP which is dead on with what a tune only N54 would give you. So you are still short another 80 whp from a stock S55.

Come on dude, at least do your research... you are making some valid points but this was not one of them.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Man those words are blowing smoke up your ass.

Well if you can find me an N54 that only has a tune and dyno's 425 WHP... I will sell you my ocean side land in Idaho for very very cheap.

Yes, 80 to the wheels... so when the N54 dynos 270 WHP stock and you add 80 WHP, then you are at 350 WHP which is dead on with what a tune only N54 would give you. So you are still short another 80 whp from a stock S55.

Come on dude, at least do your research... you are making some valid points but this was not one of them. And yes, Porsche is making 400 Hp w 27 MPG... in what size and weight of car again?

I'll look some more, and I'll wait for BMW's upcoming DEtune software update to hit the M3 before I judge it. I read on this site, that software was eminent. I'll see if I can find it anywhere else.

[Bubbles]

"As the S55 engine is based off the N55 engine, 75% of the engine components were adopted from the N55 production engine and the other 25% of the engine components are new developments."

Source: BMW Technical materials

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by Bubbles

"As the S55 engine is based off the N55 engine, 75% of the engine components were adopted from the N55 production engine and the other 25% of the engine components are new developments."

Source: BMW Technical materials

I've read the technical documents and I do wonder how they quantify this. There are many parts that are "in concept" the same but were tweaked slightly for different characteristics. Sensors and such.

So for example: the heads, block, crankshaft, camshafts, pistons, valves, spark plugs, oil sump/pan, injectors, oil pumps, cooling systems, etc. are all unique.

But they use the same CPS's, same valvetronic system (with unique controls by DME) and I'm sure many of the same bolts/fasteners.

So by the % count, by using a totally unique crankshaft but the same Crank positioning sensor, then that's only 50% unique parts. But who cares if it uses the same crank position sensor - the important part is the crankshaft is cutting edge and made to a much higher level.

But when looking at percentages, it makes it sound like it's mostly the same engine.

It's not.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

I'll look some more, and I'll wait for BMW's upcoming DEtune software update to hit the M3 before I judge it. I read on this site, that software was eminent. I'll see if I can find it anywhere else.

A lot of reading needs to be done there.

[Dalko43]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Definitely not a tune... all bolt on's, different fuel (e85 / meth) and a protune would (which is all out for an N54... N55 lol, that wouldn't even come close). You can see a race between that setup and an S55. The S55 stock has much larger turbos and that is its most significant and telling difference... the power and reliability potential of the S55 is faaaar greater.

I think we are muddying the waters just a bit here. A FBO N54 (downpipes, larger intercooler, oil cooler, cold air intake) + a tune = something in the ballpark of 410hp-420hp (and pretty reliable at that). Now the delivery of that power is going to depend on the tune (Dinan tunes run out of umph in the upper RPM's, but other tunes will maintain the pull in higher RPM ranges).

The comparison between a tuned + FBO N54 HP/Tq curve and a S55's HP/Tq curve will depend on what kind of tune the N54 has, though ultimately I believe the 2 will look different. Put a upgraded turbo kit on the N54, and you can get something north of 450HP on 91 octane gas.

As for a race between the two (n54 car and S55 car), that comes down to much more than the motor: brakes, suspension, chassis balance, tires, gearing, ect. From the lap times and performance specs, it's obvious the M4 is a much faster car, as I haven't seen a modded 335i or 1m pull those kinds of numbers/times.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Dalko43

I think we are muddying the waters just a bit here. A FBO N54 (downpipes, larger intercooler, oil cooler, cold air intake) + a tune = something in the ballpark of 410hp-420hp (and pretty reliable at that). Now the delivery of that power is going to depend on the tune (Dinan tunes run out of umph in the upper RPM's, but other tunes will maintain the pull in higher RPM ranges).

The comparison between a tuned + FBO N54 HP/Tq curve and a S55's HP/Tq curve will depend on what kind of tune the N54 has, though ultimately I believe the 2 will look different. Put a upgraded turbo kit on the N54, and you can get something north of 450HP on 91 octane gas.

As for a race between the two (n54 car and S55 car), that comes down to much more than the motor: brakes, suspension, chassis balance, tires, gearing, ect. From the lap times and performance specs, it's obvious the M4 is a much faster car, as I haven't seen a modded 335i or 1m pull those kinds of numbers/times.

What muddying? The above car you mentioned will make 380-390 WHP on pump gas. It will make 430 WHP on E85 or meth... which is equivalent to a stock S55. If you would like to see what that looks like in real life, then watch the video in the S55 Engine forum. This discussion merely revolves around straight line power.

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

I've read the technical documents and I do wonder how they quantify this. There are many parts that are "in concept" the same but were tweaked slightly for different characteristics. Sensors and such.

So for example: the heads, block, crankshaft, camshafts, pistons, valves, spark plugs, oil sump/pan, injectors, oil pumps, cooling systems, etc. are all unique.

But they use the same CPS's, same valvetronic system (with unique controls by DME) and I'm sure many of the same bolts/fasteners.

So by the % count, by using a totally unique crankshaft but the same Crank positioning sensor, then that's only 50% unique parts. But who cares if it uses the same crank position sensor - the important part is the crankshaft is cutting edge and made to a much higher level.

But when looking at percentages, it makes it sound like it's mostly the same engine.

It's not.

Either way, it FEELS like the same motor. only this one is M "tuned".

i personally don't need a completely bespoke engine, i am not really one who is complaining about this. BMW should have never made a bespoke engine to begin with IMO. Now they cant make them anymore, and i want one (but dont need it )