[Ikester19]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Most of the models are intentionally numb, like your cookie cutter 3-series or X3 that they'll lease to soccer moms or people who don't care about driving. However the M cars, which are designed for enthusiasts, in my opinion deserve a better steering tune. Even the best steering, which is in the M2 (at the moment, haven't tried the CS) is still sadly numb.

Part of the reason Thomas liked the CS steering was also because of the more natural weighting, however they never actually stated it to be communicative. BMW has had trouble over the years with both communication and weighting with their EPS, example: sport steering settings would add unnecessarily synthetic heft to the wheel with no additional feedback.

I believe BMW uses ZF steering racks. Cadillac also uses these racks in the prior generation ATS-V and they are on the other end of the spectrum with great feedback and weighting. Its all down to the tuning I believe.

This is a great article from C/D which explains BMW's EPS steering design. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...steering-feel/

Hmm.. interesting comment around BMW intentionally making most of the models numb, like cookie cutter 3-series or X3 that they lease to soccer moms or people who don't care about driving? Quite a generalised comment, I know of many "soccer mums" and dads for that matter that buy Bmw's because they enjoy driving a well balanced, well engineered "cookie cutter" BMW - and yes they are enthusiasts. Don't think BMW design only M cars for enthusiasts.

Back to the subject of steering feel, well that is a subjective phenomena which is now more of a mystical buzzword. I mean what I think is the right amount of steering feel will differ to someone else. For example, the E90 is revered as having great steering feel, however, I remember the steering in my previous E90 and to me it was overly sensitive to every bump on the road which I felt via the steering and found it quite annoying. My M340i however provides little feedback and I consider it a little numb for around town driving but when I'm pushing it on a B road it does feel good and I'm quite happy with the level of feedback I'm getting - someone else might think different.

There's an article I read about this topic which was quite interesting and is worth a read;

https://www.beyondseattime.com/why-s...-as-you-think/

Just my 2c

[c^2]

I started with an E92 coupe and only have that as my reference. To date, I wish there was still hydraulic steering.

That being said, I've had an F30, F10, and now the M8 comp coupe. The electric steering has come a long way from the F30 days. Compared to Audi and MB, I'd say the steering is decent.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Ikester19

Hmm.. interesting comment around BMW intentionally making most of the models numb, like cookie cutter 3-series or X3 that they lease to soccer moms or people who don't care about driving? Quite a generalised comment, I know of many "soccer mums" and dads for that matter that buy Bmw's because they enjoy driving a well balanced, well engineered "cookie cutter" BMW - and yes they are enthusiasts. Don't think BMW design only M cars for enthusiasts.

Overly generalized? Maybe, but definitely not inaccurate. BMW's larger clientele base does not give a crap about driving, soccer moms are just an easy crowd to go after as most definitely don't care about driving. Just look at BMW's 1-series survey where an overwhelming amount of buyers (4 out 5 1er owners) thought their cars were FWD and not RWD. Most buyers just want the badge and look, its why the grills get bigger and why brands like MB constantly increase the size of the three pointed star. Why else do people put M badges on 320i's? It certainly isn't because the car is that good of an M car. People aspire towards the look, not the drive.

BMW's customers asked for less steering effort and feel, and seeing how the 3er and X3 make up a large amount of sales, they are cookie cutter vehicles in a sense, and probably made up a large amount of those owners asking for less effort as they sell the most to the general public.

M cars are a smaller and lesser sold group of vehicles. I didn't say they were the only BMW's designed for the enthusiast, however with M cars, they are designed (or should be) for the enthusiast first, rather than a regular 3er or X3 which is designed for the general public first before the enthusiast as they are large sellers. It is more acceptable (although still annoying) for numb steering on regular 3ers and X3's as they are aiming for large sales numbers, but M cars which are supposed to put driving feel at the top of the list, deserve better tuning in my opinion. That being said, there still are people who buy M cars for the look and prestige more so than for the driving experience.

[cntrlaltdelete000]

Can anyone comment on Thomas’ view that the exhaust may have been reworked on the LCI?

It does seem like it sounds better than my ‘19 M5C... Less farty.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Overly generalized? Maybe, but definitely not inaccurate. BMW's larger clientele base does not give a crap about driving, soccer moms are just an easy crowd to go after as most definitely don't care about driving. Just look at BMW's 1-series survey where an overwhelming amount of buyers (4 out 5 1er owners) thought their cars were FWD and not RWD. Most buyers just want the badge and look, its why the grills get bigger and why brands like MB constantly increase the size of the three pointed star. Why else do people put M badges on 320i's? It certainly isn't because the car is that good of an M car. People aspire towards the look, not the drive.

BMW's customers asked for less steering effort and feel, and seeing how the 3er and X3 make up a large amount of sales, they are cookie cutter vehicles in a sense, and probably made up a large amount of those owners asking for less effort as they sell the most to the general public.

M cars are a smaller and lesser sold group of vehicles. I didn't say they were the only BMW's designed for the enthusiast, however with M cars, they are designed (or should be) for the enthusiast first, rather than a regular 3er or X3 which is designed for the general public first before the enthusiast as they are large sellers. It is more acceptable (although still annoying) for numb steering on regular 3ers and X3's as they are aiming for large sales numbers, but M cars which are supposed to put driving feel at the top of the list, deserve better tuning in my opinion. That being said, there still are people who buy M cars for the look and prestige more so than for the driving experience.

True.

+95% of the X3 drivers that I know are no car enthousiasts. They appreciate the car for being effortless (cfr. numb steering), and when they could, they would probably try to further mute the few remaining aspects which make it a typical BMW (RWD biased/std rather stiff suspension). This would probably morph it even more into an Audi Q5 or Volvo XC60 clone. Except: they prefer the bmw badge.

I presume that the M crew can count on some more tolerance of its typical target group?

[CP911]

G-series vehicles as a whole have better steering feel than F-series. I noticed my wife's X7 has far better steering feel than my 2018 M240i did. Just weights up nicely in the turns and has a more natural and direct overall feel, despite still being a relatively light and comfort-oriented rack. Ditto for the G20 compared to the F30 3-series.

Porsche has been ahead of the game (no surprise) since they started doing EPS racks, but BMW has been steadily improving. I'm looking forward to driving the G80 to see how it feels.

Oh yeah, how does Thomas really think the headlights are "familiar BMW?" There is literally nothing BMW about them. The last few reviews I watched from these two were seriously kind of lame. They are a bit too cheesy and no better than the Straight Pipes. They offer no substance. They just drive the cars and talk about how they "feel," which is so subjective most of the time. If that's all we're going to do, give me Chris Harris every time! Savage Geese does a better review as well. Kind of over these two blokes...

[Neptune7]

Originally Posted by CP911

G-series vehicles as a whole have better steering feel than F-series. I noticed my wife's X7 has far better steering feel than my 2018 M240i did. Just weights up nicely in the turns and has a more natural and direct overall feel, despite still being a relatively light and comfort-oriented rack. Ditto for the G20 compared to the F30 3-series.

Porsche has been ahead of the game (no surprise) since they started doing EPS racks, but BMW has been steadily improving. I'm looking forward to driving the G80 to see how it feels.

Oh yeah, how does Thomas really think the headlights are "familiar BMW?" There is literally nothing BMW about them. The last few reviews I watched from these two were seriously kind of lame. They are a bit too cheesy and no better than the Straight Pipes. They offer no substance. They just drive the cars and talk about how they "feel," which is so subjective most of the time. If that's all we're going to do, give me Chris Harris every time! Savage Geese does a better review as well. Kind of over these two blokes...

Savage Geese is phenomenal. Their videos are incredibly detailed and technical.

[Ghostriderf80]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Canada seems very oppressive, end up in jail for using a car.

Trou de cue is certainly a prime minister of the weed generation. Oppressive and fascist speed limits. WTF.

80 km/h, that is not acceptable on those roads. 401 limit can easily be 150 on some stretches. But if anyone drove on the 401, you know at 30 km/h the drivers still can't find a lane and they have the worst road rage ever.

Please vote for someone who cares like Ford.

Nice car.

[pcai]

Originally Posted by cntrlaltdelete000

Can anyone comment on Thomas’ view that the exhaust may have been reworked on the LCI?

It does seem like it sounds better than my ‘19 M5C... Less farty.

The new one has reduced pops. I wouldn't say that this change makes the exhaust sound better, but you might not like the burbles so you might think it sounds better. So it's a purely subjective topic. The new one's exhaust tone is certainly not any louder.

[pcai]

Originally Posted by Ghostriderf80

Canada seems very oppressive, end up in jail for using a car.

Trou de cue is certainly a prime minister of the weed generation. Oppressive and fascist speed limits. WTF.

80 km/h, that is not acceptable on those roads. 401 limit can easily be 150 on some stretches. But if anyone drove on the 401, you know at 30 km/h the drivers still can't find a lane and they have the worst road rage ever.

Please vote for someone who cares like Ford.

Nice car.

Yes the speed limits are too low. And yes, the laws surrounding speed and whatnot are oppressive. The thing that bothers me the most is why they would impound your car for speeding. That is just the dumbest sht I've ever heard of. Just write the ticket and move on.

[Bullish657]

Aint no engine braking in these cars because its a torque converter auto...

[spuntyb]

Originally Posted by Neptune7

Savage Geese is phenomenal. Their videos are incredibly detailed and technical.

+1

Learn a lot when the cars are up on the lift

[italiabrain]

Originally Posted by Bullish657

Aint no engine braking in these cars because its a torque converter auto...

This isn’t accurate at all. The torque converter spends the vast majority of its time locked and the engine braking is fine. In fact, it tends to lurch on the 2-1 shift when you’re lightly on the brakes if you’re not used to it.

The torque converter is far from perfect for an M car, but this isn’t part of it.

[Fantastic 5]

I've had my 2021 M5C LCI for 3 mos....while I love it....there is inherent imperfections that are so obvious when I compare it to my last 3 Jags.

First, TH is right....the M5 steering is direct but so numb and the suspension isolated ....so much so that the car can suddenly bite you without you feeling it. Not good. It's not progressive at all and you can't really feel or predict what the car is going to do.

The AWD system does not tell you what it's doing. 4WD mode is hugely capable but you have no idea what the car will do: oversteer or understeer...who knows. 4WD Sport may be better but with the DSC off, it's a little intimidating especially in the wet. My F-Type SVR had rear biased 4WD AND DSC on. It was capable, confidence inspiring and allowed you to kick out its tail without killing yourself.

The torque converter is jerky. I used to drive the Jags only in manual mode. Upshifting and downshifting were direct and quick. The M5 is too jerky on the downshift when slowing down and the gears are spaced weirdly.

Yeah, Jags were that good even if they had old infotainment and tech. Too bad that brand lost its way (again). Awful management.

We should applaud BMW for carrying the torch of accessible European sports cars with amazing tech, but they should hire Mike Cross (Chief Engineer) away from Jaguar.

[Maxlude]

I think many 'reviewers' misunderstand the M5. It is not a quasi track car with road comforts, leave that to the smaller more fiesty siblings in M2/3/4. Which is why smoking tyre, savagegeese, and these guys all moan about how it's detached, insulated, exhaust not loud enough, too big and heavy-it's ALL of these things because it is a quasi luxury car that has sporting characteristics for the ROAD not the track. It can hold its own on the track but that is not where it's main talents lie. When some reviewers suggest that the F90M5 is not comfortable in its own skin as it doesn't know what it is trying to be. WTF, that is just journalist flowery bs.
It and BMW M know exactly what this car is all about. Don't let all these egiot reviews make you think it's a direct comparison to a 911, Maclaren-It is not. It is one that dominates the road, eats miles with ease in comfort but enough sportiness to satisfy the enthusiast and space for the family.

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by Maxlude

I think many 'reviewers' misunderstand the M5. It is not a quasi track car with road comforts, leave that to the smaller more fiesty siblings in M2/3/4. Which is why smoking tyre, savagegeese, and these guys all moan about how it's detached, insulated, exhaust not loud enough, too big and heavy-it's ALL of these things because it is a quasi luxury car that has sporting characteristics for the ROAD not the track. It can hold its own on the track but that is not where it's main talents lie. When some reviewers suggest that the F90M5 is not comfortable in its own skin as it doesn't know what it is trying to be. WTF, that is just journalist flowery bs.
It and BMW M know exactly what this car is all about. Don't let all these egiot reviews make you think it's a direct comparison to a 911, Maclaren-It is not. It is one that dominates the road, eats miles with ease in comfort but enough sportiness to satisfy the enthusiast and space for the family.

Well said.

And a few pics of me holding my own... err (say nothing, Vic), the M5 holding its own against many more track-suitable cars.

[Deleted Account]

Originally Posted by Maxlude

I think many 'reviewers' misunderstand the M5. It is not a quasi track car with road comforts, leave that to the smaller more fiesty siblings in M2/3/4. Which is why smoking tyre, savagegeese, and these guys all moan about how it's detached, insulated, exhaust not loud enough, too big and heavy-it's ALL of these things because it is a quasi luxury car that has sporting characteristics for the ROAD not the track. It can hold its own on the track but that is not where it's main talents lie. When some reviewers suggest that the F90M5 is not comfortable in its own skin as it doesn't know what it is trying to be. WTF, that is just journalist flowery bs.
It and BMW M know exactly what this car is all about. Don't let all these egiot reviews make you think it's a direct comparison to a 911, Maclaren-It is not. It is one that dominates the road, eats miles with ease in comfort but enough sportiness to satisfy the enthusiast and space for the family.

Very very well said

[Barry_S]

Originally Posted by Maxlude

I think many 'reviewers' misunderstand the M5. It is not a quasi track car with road comforts, leave that to the smaller more fiesty siblings in M2/3/4. Which is why smoking tyre, savagegeese, and these guys all moan about how it's detached, insulated, exhaust not loud enough, too big and heavy-it's ALL of these things because it is a quasi luxury car that has sporting characteristics for the ROAD not the track. It can hold its own on the track but that is not where it's main talents lie. When some reviewers suggest that the F90M5 is not comfortable in its own skin as it doesn't know what it is trying to be. WTF, that is just journalist flowery bs.
It and BMW M know exactly what this car is all about. Don't let all these egiot reviews make you think it's a direct comparison to a 911, Maclaren-It is not. It is one that dominates the road, eats miles with ease in comfort but enough sportiness to satisfy the enthusiast and space for the family.

+3

[ABenLauda]

Originally Posted by Maxlude

I think many 'reviewers' misunderstand the M5. It is not a quasi track car with road comforts, leave that to the smaller more fiesty siblings in M2/3/4. Which is why smoking tyre, savagegeese, and these guys all moan about how it's detached, insulated, exhaust not loud enough, too big and heavy-it's ALL of these things because it is a quasi luxury car that has sporting characteristics for the ROAD not the track. It can hold its own on the track but that is not where it's main talents lie. When some reviewers suggest that the F90M5 is not comfortable in its own skin as it doesn't know what it is trying to be. WTF, that is just journalist flowery bs.
It and BMW M know exactly what this car is all about. Don't let all these egiot reviews make you think it's a direct comparison to a 911, Maclaren-It is not. It is one that dominates the road, eats miles with ease in comfort but enough sportiness to satisfy the enthusiast and space for the family.

Fully agree with this. But, when BMW puts a CS badge on this quasi luxury car that has sporting characteristics, one cannot help but think that BMW is just milking that "CS" titty too hard!

[Deleted Account]

Originally Posted by ABenChod

Fully agree with this. But, when BMW puts a CS badge on this quasi luxury car that has sporting characteristics, one cannot help but think that BMW is just milking that "CS" titty too hard!

Fair point