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      01-11-2021, 10:21 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TanzaniteBlue View Post
All I know is this. In our M340 I drive around in Sport or Sport Plus with paddles. Any more throttle than initial tip in, hitting a paddle to car response is immediate, almost like my F80. Even in comfort with the shifter not in the S gate.

This is simply not the case in the F90, and several POV drives convey this too. When you drive around normally, there is a sizable delay from you touching a paddle to the car responding. I tried S2 and S3. If you put the car into M Mode Sport or whatever it brings down the response time. Not sure why that affected shift quality. Engine was in Sport Plus the entire time.

This is where my issue lies. It’s bad enough the DCT is gone. But the usually excellent ZF8 responds like GMs shit 8 speed! And the complaints with that transmission are endless.



You can see the delay clear as day here when he drives. This is exactly how my test car felt regardless of mode. Skip to 13:40 and watch from there.
Weaker engine==more willing and necessary downshift... perhaps. :

Beyond that: I've had 3 F10 M5s, 2 M6 GCs, 2 F90s and now an M8. All were comps. In between, I had an AMG E63S and an RS7P. The ZF isn't quite as quick as the BMW dual clutch in all scenarios but it's too close to call in most. For the rest of the time, it's butter—I don't think anyone ever described the BMW DCT as butter... except perhaps when it came to the clutch plates slipping.

You haven't had enough time with it is my guess but to each their own.
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      01-12-2021, 12:56 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TanzaniteBlue View Post
All I know is this. In our M340 I drive around in Sport or Sport Plus with paddles. Any more throttle than initial tip in, hitting a paddle to car response is immediate, almost like my F80. Even in comfort with the shifter not in the S gate. Yes shift speed is different depending on throttle but the response is always the same.

This is simply not the case in the F90, and several POV drives convey this too. When you drive around normally, there is a sizable delay from you touching a paddle to the car responding. I tried S2 and S3. If you put the car into M Mode it brings down the response time. Not sure why that affected paddle response. Engine was in Sport Plus the entire time.

This is where my issue lies. It feels disconnected.



You can see the delay clear as day here when he drives. This is exactly how my test car felt regardless of mode. Skip to 13:40 and watch from there.
That dude is probably driving in S1 at your indicated timestamp. You can tell because the shifts aren't crisp, you don't get the snap and the "grr" sound from the exhaust when you upshift. In S1 it's going to shift that way. He didn't crank it up to S3.
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      01-12-2021, 01:42 PM   #47
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There was a lot of discussion on the delay when the car was first released. It is noticeable on your first few drives, then your brain adapts and you get used to it.

When I had my M5 I never really thought about it until that discussion came up. Then when I really paid attention I could feel that it was there. Then I forgot about it and just enjoyed driving it.
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      01-12-2021, 04:33 PM   #48
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Ok, so I made sure to pay attention to this today when I drove. I tried all three “levels” of S, and there IS a very noticeable delay between upshift/downshift and gear change. My car is still in break-in, so I am not too worried about this for now, as I have (unfortunately) only rarely driven the car, yet. This will be something I remain interested in as I pass break-in and beyond, but it will definitely not be a deal-killer for me, as I absolutely love this car! It does seem as though this could be a pre-break-in thing, though, or as some have mentioned, the learning thing.

Last edited by ///WeissBisBlau; 01-12-2021 at 04:56 PM..
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      01-12-2021, 08:01 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///WeissBisBlau View Post
Ok, so I made sure to pay attention to this today when I drove. I tried all three "levels" of S, and there IS a very noticeable delay between upshift/downshift and gear change. My car is still in break-in, so I am not too worried about this for now, as I have (unfortunately) only rarely driven the car, yet. This will be something I remain interested in as I pass break-in and beyond, but it will definitely not be a deal-killer for me, as I absolutely love this car! It does seem as though this could be a pre-break-in thing, though, or as some have mentioned, the learning thing.
I recorded two scenarios earlier today: the first is from 2nd where I'm easing out of a corner then get on it; the second (after the fade) is a faster corner from 3rd up through 110mph or thereabouts (obviously both are on private roads regardless of what BMW's clearly-broken GPS nav system may reflect):



Notice how the transmission adapts to the more aggressive driving inputs both in the first and second video but specifically how the shift speed and apparent paddle response improve simply because I'm now really on it (gas-pedal-wise).
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      01-13-2021, 03:57 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///WeissBisBlau View Post
Ok, so I made sure to pay attention to this today when I drove. I tried all three “levels” of S, and there IS a very noticeable delay between upshift/downshift and gear change. My car is still in break-in, so I am not too worried about this for now, as I have (unfortunately) only rarely driven the car, yet. This will be something I remain interested in as I pass break-in and beyond, but it will definitely not be a deal-killer for me, as I absolutely love this car! It does seem as though this could be a pre-break-in thing, though, or as some have mentioned, the learning thing.
Not so sure, mine has only done 920 miles from new and the first thing when I got to drive it was how much more instant off the line and fast gear changes comparing it to my 2019 Comp. Not a huge improvement but it was there.A sharpness. Mention it when you go in for the RIS.
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      01-13-2021, 11:07 AM   #51
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Very fast going to higher gears,but slower going to lower gears.

Car is awesome but the dct is mechanically different--dual clutches so there are some differences.
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      01-13-2021, 12:25 PM   #52
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no delays here. I had an e92 with DCT that I loved, sure, its not the same, but certainly not slower or delayed.
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      01-14-2021, 04:57 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullish657 View Post
Torque converter slush box trans - ruined the car
You really need a new dead horse to beat, especially since you've evidenced you don't fully get the ups/downs of the torque converter in other threads by alleging stuff like it eliminating engine breaking despite being locked.
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      01-14-2021, 04:01 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italiabrain View Post
You really need a new dead horse to beat, especially since you've evidenced you don't fully get the ups/downs of the torque converter in other threads by alleging stuff like it eliminating engine breaking despite being locked.
There is no engine braking in the F90. When there is, I honestly feel it's applying the brakes sometimes, it feels so random and unnatural. Sometimes there's no engine braking whatsoever, the car just goes like it's in neutral and other times it literally stops the car - both scenarions happen on a pretty steep downhill on 2nd or 3rd gear (same road on both conditions), which honestly isn't possible. For me personally it's the ZF that ruins the entire experience in the M5 and it's the sole reason I don't drive the M5 anymore.
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      01-14-2021, 05:24 PM   #55
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Wait a minute, what? "No engine braking whatsoever"? I'm driving this car every day and it engine brakes like a boss on command every single time. When driving in sport plus settings, a simple, fast and fairly subtle stab on the brakes triggers downshift to lowest available gear and the car engine brakes beautifully- cracks and burbles galore.

I think part of the issue is people who are used to manual or dct and either haven't figured out how to get the most out of the zf yet, or just unwilling to learn. To state that the zf ruins the car is a bit much. BMW engineers know what they're doing.
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      01-14-2021, 05:39 PM   #56
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FWIW, I did not buy the M5 for Manual Shifter Paddles, but instead for the overall utility and performance envelopes and it is an awesome, precision tool. On my last three cars I never use the manual shift paddles! I would probably have something like a Porsche GT3 if I was looking for a more visceral, sports car experience.
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      01-14-2021, 11:44 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fun2drv View Post
I may be in the minority here, but after driving manual transmission cars for 34 years, I sold my '15 M4 and '17 M2 for and ordered a '19 M5 Competition. I only tried the paddles ONCE. My right foot is the new weapon!!! The automatic just works fine handling all of the power and torque. I'm super happy with THE BEAST!!!
I am in this minority it seems but totally agree with fun2drv.
Tried a 540xi and yes the gbox was not adapted to my style but it was all wrong for me.
Seemed to be always in too high a gear in normal mode and having to stab the throttle or use paddle to shift down while holding low gear too much in sport.
One reason I'm swapping to an auto is so I don't have to manually shift all the time.
The engine and ride was very creamy though but much more exec than sporty.
As soon as I drove the M5, I knew this was the kind of engine/gbox that I was looking for, enough power and torque to just let the gbox do its thing in everyday driving with the density of traffic nowdays. If I want a burst of acceleration, just flick into M1/M2
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      01-15-2021, 02:40 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TanzaniteBlue View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KASM3 View Post
Strange, I haven't noticed a delay. Slight when engine is in Eco. Was the car you tested pre breakin ? Maybe there is some difference before break in is done? I, however, didn't notice what you are describing. I will pay more attention next drive.
The car had 154 miles on it. It was a demo. Even in S3 there is easily a half second response time. Upshift and downshifts were incredibly lethargic. S3 and M Mode Track and it’s perhaps slightly quicker but not nearly acceptable compared to the immediacy of an M340i....
Just leave it in sport plus, S3 and it's a monster ....
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      01-15-2021, 05:52 AM   #59
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yes to each his or her own. My wife's M550i has shift paddles and I have never use them as I think I might break something. I also never thought I needed to use them. I am not out racing the car, but again to each his or her own and the automatic transmission performs like I think it should. I am probably much easier to please on this topic. Like I said before, if the car is not what you want get something else and enjoy it. Life is too short to force yourself into something that does not satisfy you especially at this price point. If Porsche, Mercedes, Cadillac, Ford, Audi are better for you get one of those and move on.
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      01-15-2021, 06:13 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolov View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by italiabrain View Post
You really need a new dead horse to beat, especially since you've evidenced you don't fully get the ups/downs of the torque converter in other threads by alleging stuff like it eliminating engine breaking despite being locked.
There is no engine braking in the F90. When there is, I honestly feel it's applying the brakes sometimes, it feels so random and unnatural. Sometimes there's no engine braking whatsoever, the car just goes like it's in neutral and other times it literally stops the car - both scenarions happen on a pretty steep downhill on 2nd or 3rd gear (same road on both conditions), which honestly isn't possible. For me personally it's the ZF that ruins the entire experience in the M5 and it's the sole reason I don't drive the M5 anymore.
Woah, seriously, F90 has very strong engine brake, in sport+ I can literally stop the car without touching the brake pedal, save for the very last moment when you press the brake to prevent creeping
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      01-15-2021, 08:20 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brava09
Woah, seriously, F90 has very strong engine brake, in sport+ I can literally stop the car without touching the brake pedal, save for the very last moment when you press the brake to prevent creeping
That’s the thing - sometimes it will literally stop the car on a steep downhill in 3rd gear, which isn’t normal - no car has that strong engine breaking, especially in 3rd gear. Other times - on the same downhill, it just keeps coasting when I let off the gas, like it’s in neutral. On a normal flat road there is NO engine breaking when downshifting with the paddles.
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      01-15-2021, 09:00 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolov View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by brava09
Woah, seriously, F90 has very strong engine brake, in sport+ I can literally stop the car without touching the brake pedal, save for the very last moment when you press the brake to prevent creeping
That’s the thing - sometimes it will literally stop the car on a steep downhill in 3rd gear, which isn’t normal - no car has that strong engine breaking, especially in 3rd gear. Other times - on the same downhill, it just keeps coasting when I let off the gas, like it’s in neutral. On a normal flat road there is NO engine breaking when downshifting with the paddles.
Well, that's not normal, and my car does not behave like this
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      01-15-2021, 09:41 AM   #63
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Did you make sure to adjust the drive logic setting? With my F80 M3, I was able to control how quickly the paddles shift up or down.

Last edited by bforbrian; 01-15-2021 at 10:04 AM..
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      01-16-2021, 01:12 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolov View Post
That’s the thing - sometimes it will literally stop the car on a steep downhill in 3rd gear, which isn’t normal - no car has that strong engine breaking, especially in 3rd gear. Other times - on the same downhill, it just keeps coasting when I let off the gas, like it’s in neutral. On a normal flat road there is NO engine breaking when downshifting with the paddles.
This just isn’t accurate. The engine braking is not affected by the presence of a torque converter while the torque converter is locked, which it is the vast majority of the time. Engine braking is clearly present on these cars and if anything is above average.

About the only scenario where engine braking is a little wonky is very slow speed downhills when you approach stall speed with the engine cold. If you get down near roughly 1300rpm in 1st gear riding against the engine the torque converter will unlock and will feel like neutral... but a DCT would be clutching to avoid stall speed anyway.

I’m not even particularly pro-ZF. I’m one of the weirdos who would’ve still gone 3-pedal manual on an f90 if it were offered with AWD. Further, I think a DCT would be good for this car, it would make it more special/unique from the M550 and make it stand out against competitors too. I just don’t see making that argument by acting like the ZF eliminates engine braking when it absolutely does no such thing.

It is slower to shift and less special than DCT. It’s also less engaging.
It trades that for smoothness, cost, and AWD compatibility.

It is absolutely not a total slush box or without engine braking.
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      01-18-2021, 04:15 PM   #65
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I drove my car recently with this topic in mind. limeypride is right. In S3 if you are just cruising with minimal throttle, the gear change is noticeably slower and more "delayed" vs. on throttle gear shifts. But even the slow shifts feel very natural and appropriate when you are just cruising along. Gear changes under higher load are fast and crisp. All in all a great gearbox.
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