[jivom5]

Originally Posted by Led_Zep_Fan

I'm posting in hopes of gaining some insight on a major warranty issue I'm currently facing. I apologize in advance for the long post.

I purchased my 2021 M5 Competition new in October 2020. 43 miles on the odometer. Up until a couple weeks ago, I have had zero issues with the car. It has been a great vehicle overall. On 1/12/2024 while driving home on the interstate, I noticed a knocking sound coming from the engine. This was a routine commute, nothing out of the ordinary. I brought the car into the dealership the next day. The service technician listened to the engine and told me he suspected a rod bearing failure or some other major structural issue. The car has 41,038 miles currently and is under the factory warranty. Due to this being a potentially very expensive issue, BMW sent one of their specialists out to inspect the engine. I received a call a few days later from my service advisor informing me that the engine was found to have a bent rod and a damaged piston. Basically the engine is toast and needs to be replaced.

Here's the shocker: he informed me that when the technician checked the ECU, the car was found to have been "tuned" (the service advisor's words) and would therefore not be covered under the warranty. When I asked for further details, he told me that the computer flagged four values in the software that did not match the expected values. He could not tell me any additional details on what exactly had been altered. I was blindsided by this as I have NEVER tuned the car in any form or fashion. I am very aware that this can void the warranty and it is not something I would have risked. I also do not track the car or use it for anything other than a daily driver.

I had a talk with the service manager at the dealership on what might have caused this failure. We recently had some heavy rainfall and I did recall driving through some standing water on the road 3 days prior to the knocking. He suspected that the damage was due to water getting into the engine. If that was the case, it would be considered an "act of god" and would be covered under my regular insurance. So, I filed a claim with my insurance provider. Their inspector examined the car a couple days ago and there was apparently no evidence of water in the engine. There is currently an oil analysis pending to further evaluate this, and those results should be back in a week or so. If no evidence of water is found, my insurance will deny an engine replacement since the car is still under the factory warranty.

The car has had some modifications including an Eisenmann race exhaust (this is a catback system, no valves) and Eventuri air intakes. It has the stock downpipes, stock cats, no other powertrain modifications at all. The exhaust system was installed by a reputable independent shop and the intake was installed by myself. I called the shop that performed the exhaust install and spoke with the owner who performed the work himself. He assured me that they did not touch the ECU. I believe him as I did not ask for any sort of "tune" nor does the invoice from that job reflect anything of the sort. He told me that they do not even have the capability to tune the car there. Other than that, the car has only ever been serviced at BMW dealerships and I have all of those records.

Just this evening, I was reviewing the old service records and I remembered that there was a recall/delivery stop shortly after I purchased the car. It was a fuel tank ventilation issue (https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...84574-9999.pdf). The ECU was reprogrammed to correct this when I brought it in for its 1200 mile service. I remember that this completely wiped all my settings and basically reset the car. I am thinking that this could be the source of the altered values in the ECU. I truly have no other explanation.

So here I am with my insurance provider denying the claim due to no evidence of water in the engine and BMW denying the claim due to the ECU not matching what they expect. And a new engine for this car runs around $40-50K installed. Not exactly pocket change. I am very frustrated as I know for a fact that I have not tuned the car. I'm really not sure what my next move should be. Is there a possibility that something nefarious is going on with BMW? I hate to think that, but clearly something is not adding up. The ECU update at the 1200 mile service is giving me some hope of an explanation, but I'm just not optimistic at this point. I'm not sure how I would even prove that. I'm thinking that I probably just need to lawyer up at this point, but I was really hoping to avoid that. Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated. Happy to provide any further details.

TLDR: M5 engine failed under warranty (possible hydrolock but no evidence of that so far), ECU values appear to have been altered, BMW denying warranty claim as a result. Looking at a $50K engine replacement and hoping for advice on next steps.

Sorry to hear about this mess op, If i was in your shoes id start by sending a nice letter to corporate about your situation and NEGATIVE treatment received from this dealer. usually that gets dealers to start moving a bit. Second, if all else fails and they still refuse to warranty the motor do NOT give them 50k for a new engine. Contact a aftermarket rebuilder like (Pure performance texas,miami engines,rktunes) You will be out the door with a new engine for 15k~

[nordmanmg]

I thought LCI F90 had locked DME, no?
If so they can easily verify that it’s still under factory lock

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by AHall

pbonsalb do you think a bent rod really requires a new engine? I understand BMW dealerships may have a policy of replacing engines instead of rebuilding, but given the car was still running maybe the repair would be a fraction of the cost of a new engine.

I have unfortunately sued a lot of people in my life but never a business. For the problem has always been collecting. Winning a case is one thing, collecting that judgement is something else. Do businesses typically pay judgements?

Depends on the bend — the small end of the rod is on a pin in the piston and rotates or swivels during the stroke, so a tiny bend might just mean less compression. The OP mentioned piston damage as well. BMW probably put a camera down the spark plug hole and saw something. I’d guess they saw evidence of detonation and then did a compression test that showed lower compression so they assumed the rod was bent. If it was a dropped valve or badly bent rod, the engine would have run really poorly.

I don’t know much about repairing the aluminum blocks with spray liners. I think the typical fix is sleeving, but I don’t think BMW approves. There is so much labor getting in there — dropping the motor and pulling the heads — that I would probably rebuild the whole motor, but I am not an engine builder with expertise in these motors. I’d like to have mine built before I damage it to the point where it can’t be built. Have to save up $15-25k for the build. Maybe next year.

One thing that is no fun is the down time. I got in an accident a couple of years ago and did not get the M5 back for 3 months. I was paying the loan and not getting to drive the car.

I no agree with getting a judgment versus collecting. Many small businesses have little to no ability to pay as well as individuals. Always worth researching ability to pay before you put the time and money into litigating, unless there is done other purpose such as when you are evicting someone and while you may get a judgment for unpaid rent, the more important goal was to get them out.

[Led_Zep_Fan]

Originally Posted by Redacre

When you buy the car new you have the luxury of knowing exactly how it was treated and maintained, so for them to somehow turn around and say you did something that you know you didn't is insane and frustrating.

This is exactly it. Incredibly frustrating. I did talk to the service director at the dealership today, and I think he believes me, but he said corporate absolutely thinks that the car has been tuned. I do have all of my service records and the invoice from the independent shop as well, so I should be covered there.

Right now, BMW's position is that the damage was most likely caused by water ingress into the engine. That is certainly possible as this engine should not just randomly bend a rod, especially with the kind of regular highway driving I do. I think that is why they were so focused on it being tuned, because there was just no other logical explanation until the water theory arose. The water I drove through was not very deep, maybe a foot or slightly more, but that might have been enough. I am definitely not dismissing that possibility.

Currently, the claim is still being investigated by my private insurance. The oil has been sent out to look for any signs of water, but I was told by the service director said that this is not a very reliable test because it does not take a massive volume of water for this to happen, and that the water would just get sent out through the exhaust, particularly if I was able to keep driving it for a little while.

I think it is very likely that my insurer will come back claiming no evidence of water ingress. They will then kick it back to BMW, and who knows where it will go from there. Maybe it will turn into a battle between my insurer and BMW corporate and I can just sit back and watch the fireworks.

[nordmanmg]

Off topic, but thought I’d just throw this your way
So, new replacement engine from bmw runs (if I’m not mistaken) $34-35k
.
CarBahn has built engines for 24k. Plus they have core refund

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Led_Zep_Fan

This is exactly it. Incredibly frustrating. I did talk to the service director at the dealership today, and I think he believes me, but he said corporate absolutely thinks that the car has been tuned. I do have all of my service records and the invoice from the independent shop as well, so I should be covered there.

Right now, BMW's position is that the damage was most likely caused by water ingress into the engine. That is certainly possible as this engine should not just randomly bend a rod, especially with the kind of regular highway driving I do. I think that is why they were so focused on it being tuned, because there was just no other logical explanation until the water theory arose. The water I drove through was not very deep, maybe a foot or slightly more, but that might have been enough. I am definitely not dismissing that possibility.

Is it tuning or water? If water, you might be screwed as well since your aftermarket intake replaces the BMW air boxes. There is no “reservoir” or space under the filter for the water. But the aftermarket scoops extend down just a matter of inches below the stock air inlets. On my lowered car, the lowest point of the scoop (have scoops but not an Eventuri intake) is 21” off the ground. Seems like you would need to be driving through a narrow channel of water at least 12” deep to push or puddle a 21” depth of water in front of the car.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by nordmanmg

CarBahn has built engines for 24k. Plus they have core refund

Core refund may or may not be available for this damaged motor or may be a partial refund. They won’t tell you until they inspect it, and by then you have shipped your engine to them. Not sure what their core charge is — probably $5k to $10k. Perhaps another shop would have been willing to repair your motor, again an unknown. Just stuff to think about. Maybe BMW requires a core charge as well. The used motor on eBay or from LKQ or wherever does not have a core and LKQ may offer a warranty option (that probably does not cover labor to remove and replace the motor).

[Boiler Up!]

You say that you drove through 1' of standing water. BMW warranty will not cover water ingestion, it's not a manufacturing defect. I don't think you have a claim against BMW.

You'll need to pursue a comprehensive claim. The insurance company will want to be able to identify when the damage happened. They will want to know when and where you drove through the standing water. They will get pictures of the area, study if it floods during rain events, look at the weather around the day/time that you provide to determine if it is likely that what you describe happened and caused the bent rod.

Good luck.

[pmsteinm]

I always thought that water ingestion caused immediate failure because it can't be compressed (so either head gasket or bends a rod depending on how much). If that happened how could it take 3 days to notice an issue? If water somehow got in the oil and caused a lubrication issue that makes sense but OP says insurance company found no evidence of water.

[GAINZ]

Just file a lawsuit already. Don't waste anymore time.

[BlueBy]

Led_Zep_Fan,

First, sorry to hear about your issue. I wish you the best on your upcoming battle(s).

Regarding heavy rain, assuming you ingested some water, an issue would have appeared sooner rather [3-days] later.

Regarding your odometer and if I read your post correctly, you logged a little over 41K miles in 38 months or so; 13K per year. Simply curious, did you changed the engine oil & filter every 6K miles; 7K miles at most? And did you run quality (Top Tier 93oct) fuel in GA?

Engine wise, nothing will change at this point, but just an FYI, I am a big believer of changing the engine oil & filter twice per year - DYI (before summer & before winter) no matter the mileage. I also run the highest octane possible often tossing in a gallon or two of E85 just to keep things as clean as possible due to the alcohol and I always let my engine warm up (run a good 3.5 to 5mins in the AM in the garage) prior to moving an inch.

I am just wondering if you by any chance followed BWM’s recommended oil service interval…if so, could this have contributed to your demise…? Not pointing fingers, but I have seen many guys drive & drive their cars with little attention to maintenance. They simply wait until the car tells them when it is time to conduct a certain service and move on – I do not trust and never follow BMW’s service intervals.

Overall, it may be hard to pin-point the actual root cause of your engine issue(s), and frankly, I think BMW is certainly taking the "it's your fault" way out of this mess - perhaps due to the low-risk mods you implemented.

Nevertheless, good luck and again, sorry to hear about your mess.

[jnotrom711]

Originally Posted by BlueBy

Led_Zep_Fan,

First, sorry to hear about your issue. I wish you the best on your upcoming battle(s).

Regarding heavy rain, assuming you ingested some water, an issue would have appeared sooner rather [3-days] later.

Regarding your odometer and if I read your post correctly, you logged a little over 41K miles in 38 months or so; 13K per year. Simply curious, did you changed the engine oil & filter every 6K miles; 7K miles at most? And did you run quality (Top Tier 93oct) fuel in GA?

Engine wise, nothing will change at this point, but just an FYI, I am a big believer of changing the engine oil & filter twice per year - DYI (before summer & before winter) no matter the mileage. I also run the highest octane possible often tossing in a gallon or two of E85 just to keep things as clean as possible due to the alcohol and I always let my engine warm up (run a good 3.5 to 5mins in the AM in the garage) prior to moving an inch.

I am just wondering if you by any chance followed BWM’s recommended oil service interval…if so, could this have contributed to your demise…? Not pointing fingers, but I have seen many guys drive & drive their cars with little attention to maintenance. They simply wait until the car tells them when it is time to conduct a certain service and move on – I do not trust and never follow BMW’s service intervals.

Overall, it may be hard to pin-point the actual root cause of your engine issue(s), and frankly, I think BMW is certainly taking the "it's your fault" way out of this mess - perhaps due to the low-risk mods you implemented.

Nevertheless, good luck and again, sorry to hear about your mess.

Unfortunately technically you could probably void your warranty if you don't follow the BMW guidelines. I hope OP actually did use BMWs guidelines. I don't necessarily disagree that sometimes it could be better to do sooner. The fact that they have recommended maintenance intervals means you're supposed to follow those. I'll bet there is verbiage in the small print where if they wanted to they could void warranty claims based on maintenance intervals not being done correctly. If it blew based on OP doing maintenance on the bmw guidelines (even if theyre insufficient in your opinion) that would be best case scenario. OP following the BMW recommendations and thats what blew the motor? Win win. Now if he took it upon himself to make his own service intervals and it blew from that, that will be a big problem for OP.

[Redacre]

Originally Posted by jnotrom711

Unfortunately technically you could probably void your warranty if you don't follow the BMW guidelines. I hope OP actually did use BMWs guidelines. I don't necessarily disagree that sometimes it could be better to do sooner. The fact that they have recommended maintenance intervals means you're supposed to follow those. I'll bet there is verbiage in the small print where if they wanted to they could void warranty claims based on maintenance intervals not being done correctly. If it blew based on OP doing maintenance on the bmw guidelines (even if theyre insufficient in your opinion) that would be best case scenario. OP following the BMW recommendations and thats what blew the motor? Win win. Now if he took it upon himself to make his own service intervals and it blew from that, that will be a big problem for OP.

They can and absolutely will void warranty claims for not following the maintenance intervals. It happened to me. I was lucky that I had a written statement from the BMW dealership that sold me the car that I was able to use in my case, otherwise I would have been responsible for a new motor.

[carseatsm5]

Originally Posted by Redacre

They can and absolutely will void warranty claims for not following the maintenance intervals. It happened to me. I was lucky that I had a written statement from the BMW dealership that sold me the car that I was able to use in my case, otherwise I would have been responsible for a new motor.

Originally Posted by jnotrom711

Unfortunately technically you could probably void your warranty if you don't follow the BMW guidelines. I hope OP actually did use BMWs guidelines. I don't necessarily disagree that sometimes it could be better to do sooner. The fact that they have recommended maintenance intervals means you're supposed to follow those. I'll bet there is verbiage in the small print where if they wanted to they could void warranty claims based on maintenance intervals not being done correctly. If it blew based on OP doing maintenance on the bmw guidelines (even if theyre insufficient in your opinion) that would be best case scenario. OP following the BMW recommendations and thats what blew the motor? Win win. Now if he took it upon himself to make his own service intervals and it blew from that, that will be a big problem for OP.

You’re saying they will void a warranty for changing the oil too often?

[Redacre]

Originally Posted by carseatsm5

You’re saying they will void a warranty for changing the oil too often?

No, the opposite of course. They will void your warranty for not changing the oil often enough or not having the records to prove it.

*Void may be too broad of a term, probably more like refuse a related warranty claim (anything that is related to oil basically)

[TupperBMW]

Eventually, over time, the truth tends to come out.

If you stick with it, you'll prevail, in my opinion.

[BlueBy]

Let me clear up what I meant regarding BMW's service intervals. I choose to never wait for the 10K or plus miles interval to change the oil. I always change it sooner, but I do allow BMW (the dealership) to change it at the recommended intervals. Therefore, in the eyes of BMW, the car is meeting their recommendations, but in the eyes of others who know me and myself, I am exceeding it for the better. I follow this same practice with the sparkplugs and so on.

Some of my car friends call it overkill, but I have followed this personal "best practice" of mine with all my current and previous vehicles - new & used for years and thus far, I am batting a 1.000 in the avoiding a major engine/trans issue arena. Or I have been incredibly lucky to have never experienced engine failures, oil smoke, oil consumption, fueling dramas, spark issues and the likes with any of my cars.


I hope this clears thing up a little better.

[jphcbpa]

Sorry to hear OP and wishing for the best on your side.

Not to derail, but curious if this was a lease, who would be on the hook ?

[jnotrom711]

Originally Posted by carseatsm5

You’re saying they will void a warranty for changing the oil too often?

NO, what i'm saying is if it came down to it, IF you ignored BMWs service interval recommendations, you will open yourself up to potentially them denying claims that are in relation to a failure on parts that would require recommended service intervals.

Of course not changing often enough would be the more obvious case of that. BUT if it came down to a court decision, and BMW produced an expert that would show that their recommended intervals were ignored (too often or not often enough) and there was some type of way to show that that was even related to the failure in any fashion they probably could. In that event, it would more expensive for them to fight it, so they would likely just fix the issue. But if they wanted to be A holes about it, i'm sure they could get an expert witness to say "yes, based on my findings, had the customer stuck with the recommended service intervals this issue would likely not be present" regardless if its done more often than recommended or not as often than recommended. The sheer fact that you deviated from their recommendations COULD open you up to something like that, if they wanted to take it all the way.

[jnotrom711]

Originally Posted by BlueBy

Let me clear up what I meant regarding BMW's service intervals. I choose to never wait for the 10K or plus miles interval to change the oil. I always change it sooner, but I do allow BMW (the dealership) to change it at the recommended intervals. Therefore, in the eyes of BMW, the car is meeting their recommendations, but in the eyes of others who know me and myself, I am exceeding it for the better. I follow this same practice with the sparkplugs and so on.

Some of my car friends call it overkill, but I have followed this personal "best practice" of mine with all my current and previous vehicles - new & used for years and thus far, I am batting a 1.000 in the avoiding a major engine/trans issue arena. Or I have been incredibly lucky to have never experienced engine failures, oil smoke, oil consumption, fueling dramas, spark issues and the likes with any of my cars.


I hope this clears thing up a little better.

Now hear me out.... I dont disagree that changing it more often would likely be better for the motor than sticking to the recommended, BUT, if they found some evidence to show "well actually based on the psychics of the oil and metal characteristics its been proven that changing oil too often can also be detrimental to the reliability of the engine"

They would argue that the OP "is not a BMW engineer, technician, petroleum physicist, so we appreciate his efforts to do better than what we recommended, but unfortunately, unless he is trained, or licensed in some fashion in regard to oil, oil changes, and service intervals, his opinion is irrelevant. We paid millions of dollars to study each and every in and out of the engine, oil dynamics, and based on the engineers findings and recommendations, this is the service interval we recommend and we do not recommend deviating from that, for this specific reason. So we're sorry, the repair is on you". Now, that doesnt mean thats reality, that doesnt mean that you actually DID cause the problem, BUT that would be on you to prove otherwise. So you'd be in for a battle if they wanted to. A very expensive battle you'd likely lose, unless you had deep pockets to fight BMWs corporate defense attorneys which I would imagine arent cheap... probably 1000.00 an hour. LOL.

Now, I dont necessarily agree with that, but there im sure there is a scientific , or specific reason why they set the service intervals where they do. Be it reliability, or be it monetarily. But in an event, deviating from that schedule they could potentially deny you if you deviate in either direction. Would they if you did it more often? Likely not. But if they found you went way too long without an oil change and that caused the problem, then absolutely they will deny warranty coverage, or attempt to, if they could get away with it.

[Led_Zep_Fan]

I have always followed the recommended service intervals and always at the dealership, so I should be fine there.

The delay between driving through the water and the start of the knocking is something I have wondered about as well. When I thought back to that week, there were some signs that something was amiss. I remember at least two separate instances where I was driving along, came to a stop, and the engine just shut off. I was able to restart it and keep driving both times without issue. I believe this happened the day after I drove through the water, and then the following day as well. The third day is when it started knocking. There was never any dramatic event and the car was drivable the whole time. I would guess that a failure due to tuning would be a much more dramatic event, but maybe not.

I welcome a comprehensive investigation, because my story will absolutely check out. Not trying to hide anything from anyone here. And I have told both my insurance and BMW that repeatedly.

[BlueBy]

Originally Posted by Led_Zep_Fan

I have always followed the recommended service intervals and always at the dealership, so I should be fine there.

The delay between driving through the water and the start of the knocking is something I have wondered about as well. When I thought back to that week, there were some signs that something was amiss. I remember at least two separate instances where I was driving along, came to a stop, and the engine just shut off. I was able to restart it and keep driving both times without issue. I believe this happened the day after I drove through the water, and then the following day as well. The third day is when it started knocking. There was never any dramatic event and the car was drivable the whole time. I would guess that a failure due to tuning would be a much more dramatic event, but maybe not.

I welcome a comprehensive investigation, because my story will absolutely check out. Not trying to hide anything from anyone here. And I have told both my insurance and BMW that repeatedly.

Oh I see. So you did feel that something was amiss soon after the water/rain incident.

Dang it, I wish you would have pulled over, parked the car and had it towed home to drain the oil - yourself, or had it towed somewhere to get it done. This sucks! I feel your pain.

A very similar issue to happened to buddy as he drove home from work in a huge down pour with his C6 Corvette. Granted, the car was lowered and he drove through a couple of huge puddles and such.

He, like you, felt that something was weird with the car/engine, but kept driving home. He engine did make weird noises and then it finally locked up the next day when he tried cranking it. He need a new LS3 shortblock with oil pump...everything else was fine. Lucky for him, his insurance paid for it.

Ps, there is nothing wrong with following BMW's oil service interval, most people do. However, remember one thing: BMW, like all other car manufacturers, they are in the business of selling cars - making profit. I'm just sayin'