[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by chris719

I somehow doubt it. Same rack, same software on M2 CS. I'll be open to change my mind if I ever drive one back-to-back, though. I've driven a Panamera Turbo and it was much better than anything BMW has done lately in that department, so I'm sure it's possible.

I've owned an OG M2 and drive an M2C and the M2 CS is exponentially better. Also have a 2022 Boxster GTS 4.0L, and the M2 CS steering feel crushes it at a level I can't explain with words (the Boxster steering feels like a Sebring convertible compared to the CS).

I have no doubt the M5 CS is even more so better than an M5C based on the press reviews and my discussions with M5 CS owners.

This seems to be something that is hard to quantify to people that haven't driven the cars and are just checking parts numbers. I'm not trying to be a fan boy, just talking these CS cars up cause they are that good.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

I've owned an OG M2 and drive an M2C and the M2 CS is exponentially better. Also have a 2022 Boxster GTS 4.0L, and the M2 CS steering feel crushes it at a level I can't explain with words.

I have no doubt the M5 CS is even more so better than an M5C based on the press reviews and my discussions with M5 CS owners.

This seems to be something that is hard to quantify to people that haven't driven the cars and are just checking parts numbers.

Well, I work in a field where I see experienced people fooled on a near daily basis in blind testing. Cognitive bias and the power of suggestion are extremely strong, even if you are aware of it. Spending almost 6 figures on a purchase has a way of making people think a certain way sometimes. Same for the media, who are constantly influenced by what the marketing teams tell them ahead of time.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am deeply skeptical given that we know the hardware differences and also how the EPS is coded to the same settings on the comp. I am similarly skeptical about the reported effects of that S55 carbon strut brace on M2C over the OG M2.

Quite possible you're right, but I'm gonna have to see for myself someday before I believe it against a long track record of every car with these racks being numb. I mean, the M5 CS just lost to the Blackwing because of it, so clearly it's not a world apart.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by chris719

Well, I work in a field where I see experienced people fooled on a near daily basis in blind testing. Cognitive bias and the power of suggestion are extremely strong, even if you are aware of it. Spending almost 6 figures on a purchase has a way of making people think a certain way sometimes. Same for the media, who are constantly influenced by what the marketing teams tell them ahead of time.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am deeply skeptical given that we know the hardware differences and also how the EPS is coded to the same settings on the comp. I am similarly skeptical about the reported effects of that S55 carbon strut brace on M2C over the OG M2.

Quite possible you're right, but I'm gonna have to see for myself someday before I believe it against a long track record of every car with these racks being numb.

On the same theme, preference of characteristics cause bias. Many people love high-revving NA engines, they expect something like a 911 GT3, GT4 or GTS 4.0L to outshine every group test because that's the defining characteristic of a car for them.

Other people prefer the way a car steers or handles or grips, or the way it exceeds a predetermined expectation for how it should do those things. And these recent set of M cars might appeal to those people more.

This will always cause a bias over whether you personally prefer a recent Porsche NA GT car or a recent M car. We are going to have this same debate next year (probably) between GT4 RS and M4 CSL.

I can only give you my perspective. I bought an M2 CS last year, and past on an M5 CS to buy a Boxster GTS 4.0L (figuring that the M2 CS gave me enough of experience of a BMW). Driving those both back to back frequently, the Boxsters flaws stand out so much that it makes me regret that decision. Also makes me question group tests that say a GT4 or Cayman GTS 4.0L is the preferred choice. And I have no justification bias, my money was spent on both cars.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

On the same theme, preference of characteristics cause bias. Many people love high-revving NA engines, they expect something like a 911 GT3, GT4 or GTS 4.0L to outshine every group test because that's the defining characteristic of a car for them.

Other people prefer the way a car steers or handles or grips, or the way it exceeds a predetermined expectation for how it should do those things. And these recent set of M cars might appeal to those people more.

This will always cause a bias over whether you personally prefer a recent Porsche NA GT car or a recent M car. We are going to have this same debate next year (probably) between GT4 RS and M4 CSL.

I can only give you my perspective. I bought an M2 CS last year, and past on an M5 CS to buy a Boxster GTS 4.0L (figuring that the M2 CS gave me enough of experience of a BMW). Driving those both back to back frequently, the Boxsters flaws stand out so much that it makes me regret that decision. Also makes me question group tests that say a GT4 or Cayman GTS 4.0L is the preferred choice. And I have no justification bias, my money was spent on both cars.

I forgot you do have a Boxster GTS 4.0. I'm surprised based on my experience with Porsches, but I'll have to take your word for it.

[Kstoff125]

This discussion comes up with every manufacturer; I had a 997 911 Turbo S…an amazing car in every aspect from my perspective. I sold it for a 997 911 GT2…driving them back to back it was like night and day. The Turbo S felt like a minivan in the steering and handling department. The GT2 provided a visceral driving experience. In the end, however, I wouldn't say one was better than the other as they are two very different cars. While the m5, m5c and m5cs may not be as drastically different as the 911s, they follow a similar model. I'm looking forward to picking up my m5cs this spring and will definitely provide a write up once I get a chance to beat on it a bit.

[Bluehorseshoe]

What I find totally amazing every time I get behind the wheel is how relaxed it is to drive. I also have a '21 AMG E63S Wagon, and in many ways the M5 CS is more comfortable and user-friendly. Certainly the steering and suspension are more chill in normal modes. And since BMW's done away with DCT the transmission feels so much more refined. I think this was a great move, particularly for M5. In contrast, the AMG's transmission feels much rougher in day-to-day driving conditions. Also, the F90 drives considerably smaller with far better visibility. What a car.

[Lady Jane]

Tested: 2022 BMW M5 CS Hits the Gym

WHOA...Impressive!

[Dreamer2014]

Car and Driver just measured the F90 to 60 in 2.8 seconds.

"In 2.8 seconds you’re at 60 mph and in 10.9 you’re whisked through the quarter-mile at 129 mph.



Not bad for the regular Competition..The CS is only .2 seconds faster to 60... is that correct?

[Al Pinã]

All these comparisons to the Blackwing Caddy but no mention of how it gets single digit MPGs and has the interior fit & finish of something from 20 years ago.

If you're not reviewing a car as an overall package and solely focusing on lap times then it's really not worth the read/watch to me.

[Bluehorseshoe]

Yeh, lap times and 0-60 are two of the most overrated metrics to judge overall car satisfaction. To me, how it drives and how it looks/feels are far so much important. If a car was a second slower 0-60 or a few seconds slower around some track but offered more feel behind the wheel, I'd always take it over the faster car.

[Mako]

Amazing this thing is only 100 lbs heavier than M3 Xdrive

[vcx]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Kind of good comparison between M8 Competition and M5 CS:

interesting..

I drove the same day a M5C, M5 CS and a M8C.

The M5CS and M8 seemed much closer and much more powerful then the M5C.

I am sure that there is much more than 10 hp difference between the M5 CS and M8 compared to the M5C, they are a different animal (and you obviously pay fot this)

[will0621]

Originally Posted by vcx

interesting..

I drove the same day a M5C, M5 CS and a M8C.

The M5CS and M8 seemed much closer and much more powerful then the M5C.

I am sure that there is much more than 10 hp difference between the M5 CS and M8 compared to the M5C, they are a different animal (and you obviously pay fot this)

M8/M5 base and M8c/M5c have the same exact engine and tunes. Pre lci M5s were known to have some launch control issues and had the prior ZF transmission version, these may have accounted for the carwow race results between the M8c and Pre LCI M5c.

M5 LCI and some pre LCIs with a certain build date after 2020 achieve the same 1/4miles and trap speed as the M8 competition. There should be little to no difference in performance between M5s and M8s, the only real differences are exterior and interior styling as well as pricing. Both should make around 580-600 whp from what I have seen. Not sure if the M5cs has been dynoed yet.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by vcx

interesting..

I drove the same day a M5C, M5 CS and a M8C.

The M5CS and M8 seemed much closer and much more powerful then the M5C.

I am sure that there is much more than 10 hp difference between the M5 CS and M8 compared to the M5C, they are a different animal (and you obviously pay fot this)

Well Both M5C and M8C have the same engine/powetrain so basically they are identical in power league; however M8C is lighter/smaller with probably better drag coefficient so you feel more powerful than M5C.
Car&Driver numbers for M5C is slightly slower than M8C too.
Regrading to M5CS , on the paper M5 CS is lighter and more powerful than M8C but Car&Driver numbers are showing "almost" similar performance in term of 0-60, 0-100, 0-150, 1/4 mile , etc ...
BTW M5 CS is about 2 seconds faster than M8C over Nurburgring

[MNoob]

Car and Driver numbers need to be taken with a big grain of salt. What they publish is not what they achieved. They test a car, then correct those numbers to ideal conditions. I forget what those conditions are, but that fine print is usually included somewhere.

[vcx]

Originally Posted by will0621

M8/M5 base and M8c/M5c have the same exact engine and tunes. Pre lci M5s were known to have some launch control issues and had the prior ZF transmission version, these may have accounted for the carwow race results between the M8c and Pre LCI M5c.

M5 LCI and some pre LCIs with a certain build date after 2020 achieve the same 1/4miles and trap speed as the M8 competition. There should be little to no difference in performance between M5s and M8s, the only real differences are exterior and interior styling as well as pricing. Both should make around 580-600 whp from what I have seen. Not sure if the M5cs has been dynoed yet.

All what you say makes sens, but in the real world, the M8C seemed faster than the M5C, and similar to M5CS, when driving them back to back (not on a real racetrack though, it was more a slalom/drift/drag race facility)

[No Boost]

Originally Posted by MNoob

Car and Driver numbers need to be taken with a big grain of salt. What they publish is not what they achieved. They test a car, then correct those numbers to ideal conditions. I forget what those conditions are, but that fine print is usually included somewhere.

It's how they level the playing field, correcting for DA, etc. since the testing environment can't be controlled. You're right, a vehicle's numbers might be a bit skewed but it keeps everyone honest regarding comparability. And that's what we enthusiasts do, compare the shit out of everything.

I'm surprised the M8C had the (ever so slightly) better overall performance numbers given its power/weight ratio handicap. Better drag coefficient perhaps?

[MNoob]

Originally Posted by No Boost

It's how they level the playing field, correcting for DA, etc. since the testing environment can't be controlled. You're right, a vehicle's numbers might be a bit skewed but it keeps everyone honest regarding comparability. And that's what we enthusiasts do, compare the shit out of everything.

I'm surprised the M8C had the (ever so slightly) better overall performance numbers given its power/weight ratio handicap. Better drag coefficient perhaps?

it's nifty in theory, but useless in practice. if you want to know how they compare, line them up same time same place.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by vcx

All what you say makes sens, but in the real world, the M8C seemed faster than the M5C, and similar to M5CS, when driving them back to back (not on a real racetrack though, it was more a slalom/drift/drag race facility)

You are right M5 and M8 are powerwise identical beside 150 lb weight differece!
So M8 is faster since is lighter. Also has better drag coefficient.
Carwow has the battle.

[will0621]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

You are right M5 and M8 are powerwise identical beside 150 lb weight differece!
So M8 is faster since is lighter. Also has better drag coefficient.
Carwow has the battle.

Where are you finding a 150lb weight difference?
the M5 is actually lighter per BMW technical documents.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by will0621

Where are you finding a 150lb weight difference?
the M5 is actually lighter per BMW technical documents.

Well maybe 150 lb is not accurate but according to BMW NA M5 is 50 lb heavier than M8 Competition and it should make sense since it's about 4.6" longer. I believe M5 Competition is slightly heavier than M5.

[Bluehorseshoe]

Magazines talking about weight, horsepower and 0-60 times, are missing the point. The M5 CS drives like a dream. Turn in is sharp, the chassis is lively but not overly damped, and there's some feel to the steering (reminds me a little of how BMWs felt with hydraulic, when you could drive over a dime and sweat you could feel it through the steering wheel). This is the magic—the subtle ways in which BMW tuned it. I strongly suspect it has little or nothing to do with weight savings or added horsepower. Oh, and the buckets also help.

I obsessed the better part of 3 years trying to figure out why my 911R drove better than my GT3 Touring. It all comes down to many little tweaks here and there. Had zero to do with performance. Just my two-cents.

BMW has done a fantastic job with the F90 M5 (all of them), and it should be celebrated. And we should all be very thankful BMW hasn't supersized the kidneys yet.