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      04-06-2019, 10:06 PM   #1
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Bms stage 1 or JB4?

Stock car with bmc drop-ins and x-pipe . Which piggyback will put down the most power ?
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      04-06-2019, 11:00 PM   #2
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The JB4 makes a lot more power, but the Stage1 is half the price and much easier to install. The Stage1 is just like RaceChip but cheaper so if you're happy with the potential to run 10.6 in the 1/4 mile go for it. If you want more features, logging, and the potential for low 10 second in the 1/4 then is has to be the JB4.
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      04-07-2019, 08:01 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MpowerMike View Post
Stock car with bmc drop-ins and x-pipe . Which piggyback will put down the most power ?
Go with JB4 - it gives you a lot of options which you decide which ones to take advantage of and which ones not to, as well as does all your logging. You will learn a lot more about your car that way and will become an interaction as well.
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      04-07-2019, 09:27 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuel-It! View Post
The JB4 makes a lot more power, but the Stage1 is half the price and much easier to install. The Stage1 is just like RaceChip but cheaper so if you're happy with the potential to run 10.6 in the 1/4 mile go for it. If you want more features, logging, and the potential for low 10 second in the 1/4 then is has to be the JB4.
+1

I have it on my car and will be tinkering with race gas over the coming weeks. I need the JB4 to properly take advantage of that.
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      04-08-2019, 04:36 PM   #5
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If you are interested in RaceChip, I am here to answer your questions.
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      04-08-2019, 06:56 PM   #6
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I'm going to run stage 1 for now.
Once if, and if I do bolt ons, etc. I will get a proper flash as needed.
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      04-08-2019, 07:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcvtec View Post
I'm going to run stage 1 for now.
Once if, and if I do bolt ons, etc. I will get a proper flash as needed.
I'll mention it one more time just to make sure everyone heard me drone on and on and... BMW are not the "meh, tune it, tweak it, replace parts... we don't care" company they used to be. From my firsthand experience thus far, they're not as anal as Audi but perhaps a tad more so than MB/AMG. To date, I know of no way to detect either the RC or the JBs beyond inference whereas I can guarantee they can detect a tune regardless of whether you remove it or not before a service (this assumes they actually care to do so which I'm asserting they now are).

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      04-08-2019, 08:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
I'll mention it one more time just to make sure everyone heard me drone on and on and... BMW are not the "meh, tune it, tweak it, replace parts... we don't care" company they used to be. From my firsthand experience thus far, they're not as anal as Audi but perhaps a tad more so than MB/AMG. To date, I know of no way to detect either the RC or the JBs beyond inference whereas I can guarantee they can detect a tune regardless of whether you remove it or not before a service (this assumes they actually care to do so which I'm asserting they now are).

This is true, but if you wanna play, you might have to pay, which is also true, thanks for the words of wisdom.

Anyway off I go to my rim problem.
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      04-08-2019, 09:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcvtec View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
I'll mention it one more time just to make sure everyone heard me drone on and on and... BMW are not the "meh, tune it, tweak it, replace parts... we don't care" company they used to be. From my firsthand experience thus far, they're not as anal as Audi but perhaps a tad more so than MB/AMG. To date, I know of no way to detect either the RC or the JBs beyond inference whereas I can guarantee they can detect a tune regardless of whether you remove it or not before a service (this assumes they actually care to do so which I'm asserting they now are).

This is true, but if you wanna play, you might have to pay, which is also true, thanks for the words of wisdom.

Anyway off I go to my rim problem.
Then you and I see things the same way!

I wish you luck. Keep us posted on the mods.
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      04-08-2019, 09:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
I'll mention it one more time just to make sure everyone heard me drone on and on and... BMW are not the "meh, tune it, tweak it, replace parts... we don't care" company they used to be. From my firsthand experience thus far, they're not as anal as Audi but perhaps a tad more so than MB/AMG. To date, I know of no way to detect either the RC or the JBs beyond inference whereas I can guarantee they can detect a tune regardless of whether you remove it or not before a service (this assumes they actually care to do so which I'm asserting they now are).

Research ALDL telematics. BMW has it, uses it....but to what degree, I'm not sure. If they want, they will know every time an ALDL is used and why.
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      04-08-2019, 09:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onfireX5 View Post
Research ALDL telematics. BMW has it, uses it....but to what degree, I'm not sure. If they want, they will know every time an ALDL is used and why.
Can you clarify your point, please? All I turned up was 'assembly line diagnostic' tool. I'm not sure if you're saying that's how they detect 'tampering' with ECU mods or with piggybacks or both... or just providing a bit of background.

Excuse my obvious ignorance. While I design/engineer OS and platform security software for a living and the overlaps with today's cars are surprisingly large, when it strays into the mechanical, I'm a kindergartener. .

Last edited by limeypride; 04-08-2019 at 10:28 PM..
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      04-08-2019, 10:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
Can you clarify your point, please? All I turned up was 'assembly line diagnostic' tool. I'm not sure if you're saying that's how they detect 'tampering' with ECU mods or with piggybacks or both... or just providing a bit of background.

Excuse my obvious ignorance. While I design/engineer OS and platform security software for a living and the overlaps with today's car are surprisingly large, when it strays into the mechanical, I'm a kindergartener: confused2.
I’ve been told that OEM’s now can access DME’s remotely and pull data, including ALDL (OBD2 port) activity. Plug something into the port, and they know it. But how/why/extent of use is the unknown.
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      04-08-2019, 10:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcvtec View Post
I'm going to run stage 1 for now.
Once if, and if I do bolt ons, etc. I will get a proper flash as needed.
I'll mention it one more time just to make sure everyone heard me drone on and on and... BMW are not the "meh, tune it, tweak it, replace parts... we don't care" company they used to be. From my firsthand experience thus far, they're not as anal as Audi but perhaps a tad more so than MB/AMG. To date, I know of no way to detect either the RC or the JBs beyond inference whereas I can guarantee they can detect a tune regardless of whether you remove it or not before a service (this assumes they actually care to do so which I'm asserting they now are).

If BMW NA wants to dig deep enough they'll detect (not physically) both the tune and the piggy (BMS, JB4, RC etc.) but they need to have a reason .... show up to the dealer with a bent rod and see what happens. You can remove a piggy and you can revert a tune back to a stock file but good luck removing the data that's been logged by your car.

Spent 6 years in the F10 M5 world where I saw this reality firsthand as many people I know personally blew engines and had BMW NA deny coverage.

Like you well said, this is not the BMW of old, and nothing is undetectable just depends how deep you want to dig.

Price to play the game.
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      04-08-2019, 10:41 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onfireX5 View Post
I’ve been told that OEM’s now can access DME’s remotely and pull data, including ALDL (OBD2 port) activity. Plug something into the port, and they know it. But how/why/extent of use is the unknown.
Got it... thank you!

My gut reaction is this: detecting that 'something' pulled counters/stats from the OBD II port won't serve as sufficient proof of tampering to deny a warranty claim which is the real crux of the matter here. If BMW detected an unknown 'write' operation, then I think there's reason to pursue on their part but, at the end of the day, these are warranty claim cases and there's a point where the investigative effort costs more than the claim itself.

Anyhoo, I'm running with a hypothetical 'what if' at this point--one I've pondered for a while. I know I can detect firmware changes and there's virtually nothing that can be done to stop me (short of destroying the evidence along with its subject). I also know it's harder for me to detect 'man-in-the-middle' interference on unsecured channels beyond mere inference. What I don't know is how far down these paths any given vehicle manufacturer already is or is willing to go.

I think my takeaway thus far is this and as was cited earlier, "you pay to play--there's a risk. Be prepared to pay its price."

On that happy note, back to Star Trek for me!
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      04-08-2019, 10:54 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josec70 View Post
If BMW NA wants to dig deep enough they'll detect (not physically) both the tune and the piggy (BMS, JB4, RC etc.)
I don't agree--these are not equivalent. One is 'proof' (ECU changes), the other inference (piggyback interference in a feedback loop).

Quote:
but they need to have a reason
On this, we wholeheartedly agree.

Quote:
You can remove a piggy and you can revert a tune back to a stock file
Not the same thing. One leaves a cryptographic footprint; it's repeatable. The other, mere downstream data oddities... inference at best.

Quote:
Spent 6 years in the F10 M5 world where I saw this reality firsthand as many people I know personally blew engines and had BMW NA deny coverage.
Without knowing the root cause of the cases you reference, I can't make an argument against this. I can say that I'd LOVE to serve as the expert witness, though, in any one of these cases... and on either side. But I know I'd struggle to serve up sufficient irrefutable proof to make a decent case from logged data alone; it's too easy to blame on anomalous behavior especially when the evidence is literally burned.

Quote:
Price to play the game.
Absolutely!
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      04-08-2019, 11:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by josec70 View Post
If BMW NA wants to dig deep enough they'll detect (not physically) both the tune and the piggy (BMS, JB4, RC etc.)
I don't agree--these are not equivalent. One is 'proof' (ECU changes), the other inference (piggyback interference in a feedback loop).

Quote:
but they need to have a reason
On this, we wholeheartedly agree.

Quote:
You can remove a piggy and you can revert a tune back to a stock file
Not the same thing. One leaves a cryptographic footprint; it's repeatable. The other, mere downstream data oddities... inference at best.

Quote:
Spent 6 years in the F10 M5 world where I saw this reality firsthand as many people I know personally blew engines and had BMW NA deny coverage.
Without knowing the root cause of the cases you reference, I can't make an argument against this. I can say that I'd LOVE to serve as the expert witness, though, in any one of these cases... and on either side. But I know I'd struggle to serve up sufficient irrefutable proof to make a decent case from logged data alone; it's too easy to blame on anomalous behavior especially when the evidence is literally burned.

Quote:
Price to play the game.
Absolutely!
I think you get my point .... you're not going to win an argument against BMW NA and they can spot recorded data outside of factory parameters. This data is enough to void a warranty claim.

PM me if you want to chat some more; it's not my intent to bash piggys or tunes on these forums so I'll leave it here.
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      04-08-2019, 11:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josec70 View Post
I think you get my point .... you're not going to win an argument against BMW NA and they can spot recorded data outside of factory parameters. This data is enough to void a warranty claim.
Nod, understood. But you're talking about a corporation's policy decision to refuse a claim--that's entirely under their control; agreed. The purely hypothetical instance that I'm talking about is the extreme scenario where the evidence irrefutably backs a corporation's claim: with ECU flashes, that's trivial to detect even with commonplace cellphone hardware; with piggys that tamper with counters that are themselves unsigned and/or unencrypted, that's a massive leap of faith and too easy to argue to my mind.

Quote:
PM me if you want to chat some more; it's not my intent to bash piggys or tunes on these forums so I'll leave it here.
Seriously, nothing you've said makes me think you're bashing piggys, not in the slightest.

Last edited by limeypride; 04-09-2019 at 12:10 AM..
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      04-08-2019, 11:24 PM   #18
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go piggy!
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      04-08-2019, 11:28 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by ///M ARMY View Post
go piggy!
Woot woot!

Seriously, though--these things get quite the bashing but, dayam, they (or at least the JB4 that I've years of experience with) work like a charm!
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      04-09-2019, 01:19 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
Excuse my obvious ignorance. While I design/engineer OS and platform security software for a living and the overlaps with today's cars are surprisingly large, when it strays into the mechanical, I'm a kindergartener. .
Too bad BMW doesn't use active directory. Otherwise I'm sure you would have fun sharing a few tidbits.

Seem to remember you being on the team…

;-)
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      04-09-2019, 05:18 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by josec70 View Post
I think you get my point .... you're not going to win an argument against BMW NA and they can spot recorded data outside of factory parameters. This data is enough to void a warranty claim.
Nod, understood. But you're talking about a corporation's policy decision to refuse a claim--that's entirely under their control; agreed. The purely hypothetical instance that I'm talking about is the extreme scenario where the evidence irrefutably backs a corporation's claim: with ECU flashes, that's trivial to detect even with commonplace cellphone hardware; with piggys that tamper with counters that are themselves unsigned and/or unencrypted, that's a massive leap of faith and too easy to argue to my mind.

Quote:
PM me if you want to chat some more; it's not my intent to bash piggys or tunes on these forums so I'll leave it here.
Seriously, nothing you've said makes me think you're bashing piggys, not in the slightest.
Both of my F10 M5's had piggys w/ zero issues.
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      04-09-2019, 09:09 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pimpsy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
Excuse my obvious ignorance. While I design/engineer OS and platform security software for a living and the overlaps with today's cars are surprisingly large, when it strays into the mechanical, I'm a kindergartener. .
Too bad BMW doesn't use active directory. Otherwise I'm sure you would have fun sharing a few tidbits.

Seem to remember you being on the team…

;-)
The idea of domain-joining a car and having it use using Group Policy sends shivers down my spine.

PS: Do we know each other?
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