Flash tunes vs Jb4 in respect to 1/4 mile

f90_FTW · 04-03-2019, 10:32 AM

How come none of these flash companies are posting 1/4 mile runs?

Jb4 has posted a 10.2 with stock internals and barley any bolt ons.

I have FBO, just waiting on a company to offer me a stage 2 tune that can beat jb4 1/4 mile time.

And I have yet to see anyone show proof or that. I've been looking everywhere. All I'm seeing is 100-200kmh times.

The only metric I really care for is 1/4 mile. Anyone know of a tune that has shown proof to beat jb4? I'd jump all over it.

f90_FTW · 04-03-2019, 10:37 AM

Additionally if any tuner companies want to use my car for marketing purposes I'm more than willing to go to the track and pull numbers for you.

Like I said I have a full FBO
-eventri intake
-full catless esienmann dp's
-full catback custom exhaust

And even superlight weight HRE wheels

All I need is the stage 2 tune. I'm really to install TODAY.

willing to drive to Fontana speedway or to Bakersfield speedway. Also have a dragy installed for numbers redundancy.

Let's get me in the 9's!!!

Fuel-It! · 04-03-2019, 10:40 AM

The JB4 and the flash maps offer similar performance. Low 10 second potential on good fuel.

The main benefit of the flash maps are they can remove the speed limiter add in exhaust burble. The main drawback of the flash maps are once flashed traces are left behind all across the vehicle so warranty claims and lease returns would be hit and miss. In theory the flash maps should be better for E85 mixtures as you can adjust the fuel scalars directly. We're looking in to fuel pump upgrades for the F90.

Main benefit of the JB4 is the JB4 mobile app which lets you data log and make mapping and tuning changes right from your phone. Their new boost by gear algorithm makes launching a lot more consistent too on less than ideal track surfaces. By nature of how it works no trace is left behind when removed.

Then of course if 10.6 is fast enough for you check out the quick install BMS Stage1. Great value and performance. You don't get the adjustability of the JB4, don't get CANbus, the app, or wastegate control for big power, but install is literally 30 seconds.

f90_FTW · 04-03-2019, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuel-It!

The JB4 and the flash maps offer similar performance. Low 10 second potential on good fuel.

The main benefit of the flash maps are they can remove the speed limiter add in exhaust burble. The main drawback of the flash maps are once flashed traces are left behind all across the vehicle so warranty claims and lease returns would be hit and miss. In theory the flash maps should be better for E85 mixtures as you can adjust the fuel scalars directly. We're looking in to fuel pump upgrades for the F90.

Main benefit of the JB4 is the JB4 mobile app which lets you data log and make mapping and tuning changes right from your phone. Their new boost by gear algorithm makes launching a lot more consistent too on less than ideal track surfaces. By nature of how it works no trace is left behind when removed.

Then of course if 10.6 is fast enough for you check out the quick install BMS Stage1. Great value and performance. You don't get the adjustability of the JB4, don't get CANbus, the app, or wastegate control for big power, but install is literally 30 seconds.

Thank you for this! I am aware of the benefit of no traces left behind on the Jb4.

but my main thing is getting into the 9's I can deal with the warranty thing later if need be. Gotta run at least 9.99 and I know someone can get me there.

Just gotta find the tuner.

Fuel-It! · 04-03-2019, 01:57 PM

Some of the flash tuners like DME tuning is actually using a JB4 combined with their flash map, best of both worlds. If cost and warranty isn't an object consider that route. You get all the benefits of flash changes with the dynamic boost adjustment, logging, launch adjustment, that the JB4 offers.

f90_FTW · 04-03-2019, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuel-It!

Some of the flash tuners like DME tuning is actually using a JB4 combined with their flash map, best of both worlds. If cost and warranty isn't an object consider that route. You get all the benefits of flash changes with the dynamic boost adjustment, logging, launch adjustment, that the JB4 offers.

Looking into stack tuning also. Might have to go that route. Sounds like most optimal setup.

FSociety · 04-21-2019, 09:31 PM

Or just wait till its supported on Bootmod3/BM3

limeypride · 04-22-2019, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuel-It!

Some of the flash tuners like DME tuning is actually using a JB4 combined with their flash map, best of both worlds. If cost and warranty isn't an object consider that route. You get all the benefits of flash changes with the dynamic boost adjustment, logging, launch adjustment, that the JB4 offers.

Launch adjustment? What launch adjustment? Do you mean low-RPM boost?

devondragon · 04-23-2019, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by limeypride

Launch adjustment? What launch adjustment? Do you mean low-RPM boost?

I assume he means the gear-based boost limits to avoid breaking loose in the lower gears (1-2)?

limeypride · 04-23-2019, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devondragon

I assume he means the gear-based boost limits to avoid breaking loose in the lower gears (1-2)?

Oh, right, good point. Terry revised it recently so that the value in Max Boost 1st/2nd/3rd is now subtracted from the boost target, at least that's how I understood it.

To be honest, I don't really suffer from breaking loose... and least not that I can detect. In my F10, it was the opposite in that I didn't really suffer from traction... at all.

TKT2SPEED · 06-02-2019, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FSociety

Or just wait till its supported on Bootmod3/BM3

How much longer till we have BM3 for f90 ?

jc16 · 06-12-2019, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FSociety

Or just wait till its supported on Bootmod3/BM3

can Bm3 be traced? or is similar to piggy back?

limeypride · 06-12-2019, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jc16

can Bm3 be traced? or is similar to piggy back?

I believe the BM4 or BootMod<x> is an ECU flash. If it is, it can be detected assuming BMW choose to do so. Piggybacks leave trails of inference, too, but no hard evidence... so far.

onfireX5 · 06-13-2019, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by limeypride

I believe the BM4 or BootMod<x> is an ECU flash. If it is, it can be detected assuming BMW choose to do so. Piggybacks leave trails of inference, too, but no hard evidence... so far.

Every time something is plugged into the OBD port, it’s logged and transmitted via telematics

limeypride · 06-13-2019, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onfireX5

Quote:

Originally Posted by limeypride

I believe the BM4 or BootMod<x> is an ECU flash. If it is, it can be detected assuming BMW choose to do so. Piggybacks leave trails of inference, too, but no hard evidence... so far.

Every time something is plugged into the OBD port, it's logged and transmitted via telematics

Sure. I can certainly believe that. However, the topic here has drifted to proving whether or not the car was tuned. With an ECU flash, there's a cryptographically-backed chain of events that is virtually tamper-proof. With a piggy--not all of which even require OBD II to be in the picture--there's evidence of passive data logging.

onfireX5 · 06-13-2019, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by limeypride

Sure. I can certainty believe that. However, the topic here has drifted to proving whether or not the car was tuned. With an ECU flash, there's a cryptographically-backed chain of events that is virtually tamper-proof. With a piggy--not all of which even require OBD II to be in the picture--there's evidence of passive data logging.

Proof is relatively easy for BMW. Telematics nails the obd2 connections in real time. Hysteresis adds another nail plus nails the non obd2 like RaceChip that I use.

I use it knowingly, if I break it, I buy it. Local dealer generally will not be an issue. If NA gets involved, they will know.

Just had a service. Left the RC installed out in the open. They flashed the DME, oil, etc. Zero issues.

limeypride · 06-13-2019, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onfireX5

Proof is relatively easy for BMW. Telematics nails the obd2 connections in real time. Hysteresis adds another nail plus nails the non obd2 like RaceChip that I use.

I use it knowingly, if I break it, I buy it. Local dealer generally will not be an issue. If NA gets involved, they will know.

Just had a service. Left the RC installed out in the open. They flashed the DME, oil, etc. Zero issues.

OBD II is a legal requirement; plugging a device into that port that 'reads', not writes, proves nothing and many piggys don't use or need it so I think that aspect is moot unless I'm missing something. I'm happy to be educated on any of this since while, computer security is very much my thing, cars not so much.

To me, your point around hysteresis entirely supports my case: it's pure inference since it reflects only an effect, not the cause.

Out of curiosity and my own personal vested interest, I've put myself in the hypothetical position of bearing the burden of proof (i.e., I've attempted to play BMW's role) and have trawled long and hard on the Net to find something that "I" could credibly conceive of using to prove tampering in such scenarios... and I've yet to find anything beyond inference (which, to me, isn't remotely close to enough to deny a warranty claim).

I apologize if my position seems combative or argumentative--I'm not trying to be a d!ck and, while I'd rather not be proven wrong since it impacts me personally, I am entirely open to it and will readily concede my position. But, I haven't seen any technology that nudges me in that direction... yet.

Fuel-It! · 06-13-2019, 10:44 AM

A good piggyback is almost impossible to detect especially if programmed properly with CANbus but that doesn't mean you should make warranty claims on parts you break racing.

onfireX5 · 06-13-2019, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by limeypride

OBD II is a legal requirement; plugging a device into that port that 'reads', not writes, proves nothing and many piggys don't use or need it so I think that aspect is moot unless I'm missing something. I'm happy to be educated on any of this since while, computer security is very much my thing, cars not so much.

To me, your point around hysteresis entirely supports my case: it's pure inference since it reflects only an effect, not the cause.

Out of curiosity and my own personal vested interest, I've put myself in the hypothetical position of bearing the burden of proof (i.e., I've attempted to play BMW's role) and have trawled long and hard on the Net to find something that "I" could credibly conceive of using to prove tampering in such scenarios... and I've yet to find anything beyond inference (which, to me, isn't remotely close to enough to deny a warranty claim).

I apologize if my position seems combative or argumentative--I'm not trying to be a d!ck and, while I'd rather not be proven wrong since it impacts me personally, I am entirely open to it and will readily concede my position. But, I haven't seen any technology that nudges me in that direction... yet.

Zero combativeness noted ! The issue is BMW is the judge and jury. Good luck with the legal process if they download a history of boost levels over X time and it is 4% over the prior data. They say “we noted boost tampering “. You say “prove it conclusively “. They say bite me. So you sue. Good luck.

limeypride · 06-13-2019, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onfireX5

Quote:

Originally Posted by limeypride

OBD II is a legal requirement; plugging a device into that port that 'reads', not writes, proves nothing and many piggys don't use or need it so I think that aspect is moot unless I'm missing something. I'm happy to be educated on any of this since while, computer security is very much my thing, cars not so much.

To me, your point around hysteresis entirely supports my case: it's pure inference since it reflects only an effect, not the cause.

Out of curiosity and my own personal vested interest, I've put myself in the hypothetical position of bearing the burden of proof (i.e., I've attempted to play BMW's role) and have trawled long and hard on the Net to find something that "I" could credibly conceive of using to prove tampering in such scenarios... and I've yet to find anything beyond inference (which, to me, isn't remotely close to enough to deny a warranty claim).

I apologize if my position seems combative or argumentative--I'm not trying to be a d!ck and, while I'd rather not be proven wrong since it impacts me personally, I am entirely open to it and will readily concede my position. But, I haven't seen any technology that nudges me in that direction... yet.

Zero combativeness noted ! The issue is BMW is the judge and jury. Good luck with the legal process if they download a history of boost levels over X time and it is 4% over the prior data. They say “we noted boost tampering “. You say “prove it conclusively “. They say bite me. So you sue. Good luck.

And on the judge, jury and executioner (creative license on my part there), I completely agree. I've only heard of it happening but no insight into the process or verdict.

josec70 · 06-13-2019, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onfireX5

Zero combativeness noted ! The issue is BMW is the judge and jury. Good luck with the legal process if they download a history of boost levels over X time and it is 4% over the prior data. They say “we noted boost tampering “. You say “prove it conclusively “. They say bite me. So you sue. Good luck.

100%; BMW NA will always shift the burden of proof to the owner even if what caused the abnormality (in this case increased boost levels) is not clear.

I'll say this ... 2 F10 M5's ... both with piggies and zero issues.

5 "tuned" F10 M5 owners (personally known to me) .... 5 blown engines.

limeypride · 06-13-2019, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josec70

100%; BMW NA will always shift the burden of proof to the owner even if what caused the abnormality (in this case increased boost levels) is not clear.

I'll say this ... 2 F10 M5's ... both with piggies and zero issues.

5 "tuned" F10 M5 owners (personally known to me) .... 5 blown engines.

All good data... thanks for the insights, folks.

To add to your list: 3 x F10 M5s, 2 x F06 M6 GCs, 1 x X5M and my new girl. No issues.

You seem very nice an' all but given what happens to people's engines when they get to know you, let's consider this our last interaction.

04-03-2019, 10:32 AM	#1
f90_FTW Private First Class 157 Rep 162 Posts Drives: F90 M5 Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Los Angeles, CA iTrader: (0)	How come none of these flash companies are posting 1/4 mile runs? Jb4 has posted a 10.2 with stock internals and barley any bolt ons. I have FBO, just waiting on a company to offer me a stage 2 tune that can beat jb4 1/4 mile time. And I have yet to see anyone show proof or that. I've been looking everywhere. All I'm seeing is 100-200kmh times. The only metric I really care for is 1/4 mile. Anyone know of a tune that has shown proof to beat jb4? I'd jump all over it.
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04-03-2019, 10:37 AM	#2
f90_FTW Private First Class 157 Rep 162 Posts Drives: F90 M5 Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Los Angeles, CA iTrader: (0)	Additionally if any tuner companies want to use my car for marketing purposes I'm more than willing to go to the track and pull numbers for you. Like I said I have a full FBO -eventri intake -full catless esienmann dp's -full catback custom exhaust And even superlight weight HRE wheels All I need is the stage 2 tune. I'm really to install TODAY. willing to drive to Fontana speedway or to Bakersfield speedway. Also have a dragy installed for numbers redundancy. Let's get me in the 9's!!!
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04-03-2019, 10:40 AM	#3
Fuel-It! Banned 550 Rep 949 Posts Drives: M4, M5, M2C, X4M, 440i, etc... Join Date: Mar 2019 Location: Phoenix AZ iTrader: (0)	The JB4 and the flash maps offer similar performance. Low 10 second potential on good fuel. The main benefit of the flash maps are they can remove the speed limiter add in exhaust burble. The main drawback of the flash maps are once flashed traces are left behind all across the vehicle so warranty claims and lease returns would be hit and miss. In theory the flash maps should be better for E85 mixtures as you can adjust the fuel scalars directly. We're looking in to fuel pump upgrades for the F90. Main benefit of the JB4 is the JB4 mobile app which lets you data log and make mapping and tuning changes right from your phone. Their new boost by gear algorithm makes launching a lot more consistent too on less than ideal track surfaces. By nature of how it works no trace is left behind when removed. Then of course if 10.6 is fast enough for you check out the quick install BMS Stage1. Great value and performance. You don't get the adjustability of the JB4, don't get CANbus, the app, or wastegate control for big power, but install is literally 30 seconds.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

04-03-2019, 01:57 PM	#5
Fuel-It! Banned 550 Rep 949 Posts Drives: M4, M5, M2C, X4M, 440i, etc... Join Date: Mar 2019 Location: Phoenix AZ iTrader: (0)	Some of the flash tuners like DME tuning is actually using a JB4 combined with their flash map, best of both worlds. If cost and warranty isn't an object consider that route. You get all the benefits of flash changes with the dynamic boost adjustment, logging, launch adjustment, that the JB4 offers.
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04-21-2019, 09:31 PM	#7
FSociety IG @bmwF9xG80 3813 Rep 7,592 Posts Drives: G80 M3, X4M, G07 X7m50 Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: NYC to NJ to Orlando FL iTrader: (3) Garage List 2023 BMW G80 M3 [0.00] 2020 BMW X4MC [0.00] 16' BMW X4 M40i [10.00] 06 Cadillac STS [0.00]	Or just wait till its supported on Bootmod3/BM3 __________________ 60-130mph 6.5s X4M #HCP 60-130mph 5.0s G80 M3 #OrlandoAutowerks Sauce IG: @bmwF9XG80
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06-13-2019, 10:44 AM	#18
Fuel-It! Banned 550 Rep 949 Posts Drives: M4, M5, M2C, X4M, 440i, etc... Join Date: Mar 2019 Location: Phoenix AZ iTrader: (0)	A good piggyback is almost impossible to detect especially if programmed properly with CANbus but that doesn't mean you should make warranty claims on parts you break racing.
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