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      12-27-2022, 03:19 PM   #1
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Stock M brakes vs the Ceramic

This may have been explained before, not trying to rebirth the topic, but I couldn't find it through the search.

On these forums I see many enthusiasts opt for the Ceramic over the stock M for various reasons of looks, performance and less brake dust. Am I missing any other pros?

For a Super car, I would imagine the stock M are high performance brakes which would suffice. Brake dust is not my concern as I clean my cars frequently and I might track this car a handful of times at best.

I am thinking long term ownership.... M vs Ceramic mait
Has anyone had to replace a full set of each yet?
How long do they typically last before having to get replaced and what's the cost?

Currently torn on if I should just step up to the Ceramic given the caliber of car I am about to order....I am leaning that way.
Just justifying upfront cost and if this will bite me down the road over ownership of replacement.
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      12-27-2022, 04:06 PM   #2
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The performance is a big category… more stopping power, doesn’t fade as quickly, less unsprung weight, etc.

In terms of maintenance cost, if exclusively for street use you probably never need to replace them whereas steel brakes will need to. So actually savings on maintenance somewhat offsets its initial premium cost.

If you don’t care about the looks, low dust, and performance… and you won’t keep your car for lifetime then no point to spec it.
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      12-27-2022, 04:28 PM   #3
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Low dust is the reason most people buy them. You could replace steel brakes 10 times for what it costs to replace ceramics once so I don’t think durability makes ceramics worthwhile. Plus, they are actually more fragile and susceptible to damage, though I doubt many damage them.

They should stop slightly shorter, though thus may not show up in normal driving. Magazine tests that I have read are inconclusive for the common 70-0 mph test. One Car and Driver test actually showed 5 feet longer. Extend the mph to 150 mph and it is more likely there will be gains, or run the car on a race track for a while.

The reason I would consider buying them is the weight savings. Since the weight is unsprung, saving it helps handling and acceleration. Probably not enough for most people to notice, but a bunch of little things together can make a noticeable difference. Whether it’s worth $8k is another question.

For $8k, I could buy lighter and wider aftermarket wheels, an engine tune, a transmission tune, lowering springs, secondary downpipes, Dinan turbo inlets, Dinan monoballs, and the Dinan rear toe kit.
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      12-27-2022, 06:06 PM   #4
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Do a search on this site for squeaking brake noise and you will find many threads. The ceramics in most cases don't squeak and the stock steel brakes do. I have owned 2 F90 M5's, 1 with CCB's and 1 without and I can tell you if you can afford the ceramics that's the only way to go.
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      12-27-2022, 06:49 PM   #5
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Aside from tracking the car, I love the CCB's. They are great on the track too but it's going to cost a college education to replace them, lol.

I will be changing my CCB to steel most likely sometime next year once shawnhayes does this and reports back on how his conversion goes, but this is only because I plan to track the car repeatedly.

For street use and 1-2 track days, CCB is the way to go as you'll likely never need to replace them. However, once you get to more track days, your time is numbered and you will need to replace them.
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      12-27-2022, 07:45 PM   #6
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FWIW Everything I’ve read and seen indicates the stopping power is no different really between CCBs and steel brakes… at least for non-continous/non-track scenarios. I think they actually discuss this in the Carwow M5 CS vs M8C vs M5C video. Ignore the fact something was horribly wrong with the driving for the racing of the M5C in the video though heh.
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      12-27-2022, 08:27 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crypto View Post
FWIW Everything I’ve read and seen indicates the stopping power is no different really between CCBs and steel brakes… at least for non-continous/non-track scenarios. I think they actually discuss this in the Carwow M5 CS vs M8C vs M5C video. Ignore the fact something was horribly wrong with the driving for the racing of the M5C in the video though heh.
In terms of stopping power cold ceramics will stop significantly worse than steel will, that is to say that the first few times you hit the brakes expect longer than normal brake distance. Once they heat up is where they start to shine.
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      12-27-2022, 08:42 PM   #8
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I doubt the CCB are significantly worse than steel brakes when cold. Probably about the same. BMW would not sell them if that was the case. No magazine test I have read has tested or described them as significantly worse. They should be slightly better when hot and significantly better if the steel brakes are so hot under the same conditions that the steel brakes are fading — which you won’t see in street driving.
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      12-27-2022, 08:58 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Kitt23 View Post
This may have been explained before, not trying to rebirth the topic, but I couldn't find it through the search.

On these forums I see many enthusiasts opt for the Ceramic over the stock M for various reasons of looks, performance and less brake dust. Am I missing any other pros?

For a Super car, I would imagine the stock M are high performance brakes which would suffice. Brake dust is not my concern as I clean my cars frequently and I might track this car a handful of times at best.

I am thinking long term ownership.... M vs Ceramic mait
Has anyone had to replace a full set of each yet?
How long do they typically last before having to get replaced and what's the cost?

Currently torn on if I should just step up to the Ceramic given the caliber of car I am about to order....I am leaning that way.
Just justifying upfront cost and if this will bite me down the road over ownership of replacement.
Agree with everyone above. CCBs are probably worth specing. With that being said, neither of my M5s have had them, but they were leases and I don't keep cars long. There is universal agreement at least about the almost complete lack of brake dust. If you're detailing often as you've said, then that's not an issue.

I almost went with them for the lack of squeal with compound brakes alone. Greer is 100% right about the squeal. Many on this forum have recently commented about how their cars squeal much less because there is supposedly a new brake compound from BMW that reduces squeal. I have no idea whether this is actually true, and I can't remember or locate the "source" (if it was a source) of this information. But my pre-LCI brakes were BAD with the squeal.

Also, even some CCBs owners have mentioned they have squealing at least some times.

Just my anecdotal experience, my LCI is ~95% better than my pre-LCI. It takes a lot of very specific types of braking to get them to squeal now. I have now had the LCI long enough to experience, hot, cold, wet, and dry. Again, I don't now if it's actually a new pad/compound, and if it is, what build dates were affected by the purported change; but mine are significantly better.

Also another anecdotal experience, micvite has had some serious builds, I'm talking everything in the book and stuff we didn't know about type of builds, and even he omitted CCBs on his last one.
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      12-27-2022, 09:49 PM   #10
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CCB’s all day, for many of the reasons already cited.

If you plan to primarily use the car on the street, with an ocassaional track day, you should have no issues.

I’ve had both on the F90 platform and would steer you towards the CCB’s if within your budget.
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      12-28-2022, 04:47 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josec70 View Post
CCB’s all day, for many of the reasons already cited.

If you plan to primarily use the car on the street, with an ocassaional track day, you should have no issues.

I’ve had both on the F90 platform and would steer you towards the CCB’s if within your budget.
I have them, and agree IF in your budget go for them.
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      12-28-2022, 06:26 AM   #12
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Lots of helpful information here. However, I would love to know what it cost to replace the carbon ceramic brakes versus steel brakes. Someone must have those two numbers. Also, when would these replacements need to take place? Timeframe?
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      12-28-2022, 07:27 AM   #13
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Performance stopping on the street is the same, it will come down more to tire grip. Don’t trust anyone that tells you CCB are worth it, they are not if you price out both. You’ll need to replace steel rotors at around 40k miles and CCB at 60k, considering the price difference you can replace steel rotors 4x for the price of carbon ones. CCB are only better if you track the car and you care about point of a second better track times. Brake dust is minimal on CCB but road debris will make your wheels dirty anyways. I would consider getting CCBs only if they were around half the price, otherwise no deal. Whichever option you will pick, you will be happy. Both set of brakes have serious stopping power.
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      12-28-2022, 07:37 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Kitt23 View Post
This may have been explained before, not trying to rebirth the topic, but I couldn't find it through the search.

On these forums I see many enthusiasts opt for the Ceramic over the stock M for various reasons of looks, performance and less brake dust. Am I missing any other pros?

For a Super car, I would imagine the stock M are high performance brakes which would suffice. Brake dust is not my concern as I clean my cars frequently and I might track this car a handful of times at best.

I am thinking long term ownership.... M vs Ceramic mait
Has anyone had to replace a full set of each yet?
How long do they typically last before having to get replaced and what's the cost?

Currently torn on if I should just step up to the Ceramic given the caliber of car I am about to order....I am leaning that way.
Just justifying upfront cost and if this will bite me down the road over ownership of replacement.
Cermaic brakes are over kill. Driving on street you won’t notice it. If money is no object get them. If brake dust is a concern which u said is not but can always get new pads with less dust. They are going to be super expensive to replace if you have the car when time comes as is the initial $8K investment.
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      12-28-2022, 08:24 AM   #15
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I thought I read replacement cost is around 4K per corner. So 16k all in.

Agree if only street driven they are 100k miles before replacement.

Initial bite on the ccbs is strong. Correct me if I’m wrong but the swept area on the ccb is greater than that of the iron rotor. Therefore there may be more braking force available but your stopping distance is still limited by the tire. After 10 laps on a track ccbs will outperform the iron rotors by a ton.

I’ve had them on both of my f90s. Had iron on other m products and yes I like to clean and detail but the regular brakes usually have my freshly cleaned wheels dirty before I reach the end of the block.

I’m definitely a big fan
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      12-28-2022, 08:25 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damianwo View Post
Performance stopping on the street is the same, it will come down more to tire grip. Don’t trust anyone that tells you CCB are worth it, they are not if you price out both. You’ll need to replace steel rotors at around 40k miles and CCB at 60k, considering the price difference you can replace steel rotors 4x for the price of carbon ones. CCB are only better if you track the car and you care about point of a second better track times. Brake dust is minimal on CCB but road debris will make your wheels dirty anyways. I would consider getting CCBs only if they were around half the price, otherwise no deal. Whichever option you will pick, you will be happy. Both set of brakes have serious stopping power.
I think CCB should last 100-200k miles unless tracked. Pads might need replacement and CCB pads probably cost more than steel pads. Brake wear also depends on driving type — mostly highway is not as hard on them. Could be 40k or 60k interval for steel brakes. I just bought 4 steel rotors for $1k and don’t think you could get 4 new carbon rotors for less than $10k — OEM is probably twice that.
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      12-28-2022, 09:49 AM   #17
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I have CCBs my car is pre-LCI. They squick occasionally especially after a wash. As far as performance can’t tell the difference since it’s hard to find a definite answer with numbers in same condition and I am more for that than going by what I think or feel. They’re much more money but wheels are dust free, so if performance is very close you need to decide if spending additional $8K is worth the benefits.
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      12-28-2022, 11:32 AM   #18
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Why not just get normal rotors, then fit carbon ceramic pads? Best of both worlds.
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      12-28-2022, 01:05 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichF90M5C View Post
Why not just get normal rotors, then fit carbon ceramic pads? Best of both worlds.
Carbon brake pads are not anything like actual CCB rotors.

CCBs are for lower weight, are fantastic on the track and they just look badass.

Just changing your pads may get you a good track pad but you'll still get more brake fade than CCB's and it does nothing for weight savings and aesthetics.
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      12-28-2022, 01:06 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5KEITH View Post
Cermaic brakes are over kill. Driving on street you won’t notice it. If money is no object get them. If brake dust is a concern which u said is not but can always get new pads with less dust. They are going to be super expensive to replace if you have the car when time comes as is the initial $8K investment.
You'll never need to replace them unless you track. They'll last longer than anyone here likely owns their car. CCB's don't wear out like normal brakes, they don't get thinner or anything like that. They only wear when they get really hot, which you'll never do on the street so they could easily last more than 200K miles for street use.

Wear on CCB rotors is due to the oxydation of the carbon fibres inside the matrix when exposed to very high temperatures (such as race track use). The wear indicators capture this oxydation wear. Once they are half exposed, it is indeed a good idea to have the rotors weighed; there is a good chance they will be under min. It is also important to note that BMW recommend replacing the rotors if either the wear indicators are half exposed OR when the rotors are under-weight.
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      12-28-2022, 01:40 PM   #21
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One other factor that may be of concern to some has been mentioned. That is that CCB rotors are fragile. If you plan to swap wheels yourself on even an occasional basis, this may be relevant.

In my experience, the stock wheels and even my lighter aftermarket wheels with tires mounted are quite heavy and unwieldy. As a result, there is significant risk of a wheel slipping and hitting the rotor when changing wheels. With steel rotors, no problem. With CCBs, such a slip could easily chip the rotor at a cost of $4K to replace.

You can reduce this risk somewhat by using the wheel mounting rods that thread into the wheel bolt holes. However, even with these, there is still some risk.
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      12-28-2022, 02:00 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irablumberg View Post
One other factor that may be of concern to some has been mentioned. That is that CCB rotors are fragile. If you plan to swap wheels yourself on even an occasional basis, this may be relevant.

In my experience, the stock wheels and even my lighter aftermarket wheels with tires mounted are quite heavy and unwieldy. As a result, there is significant risk of a wheel slipping and hitting the rotor when changing wheels. With steel rotors, no problem. With CCBs, such a slip could easily chip the rotor at a cost of $4K to replace.

You can reduce this risk somewhat by using the wheel mounting rods that thread into the wheel bolt holes. However, even with these, there is still some risk.
What most people don't know or fail to realize, there's actually a metal heat/dust shield that goes behind the CCB rotors and it has a slight lip on it that actually covers the top of the CCB rotor just slightly.

Ask me how I know. I was changing my track wheels, and a wheel slipped just a bit and it hit the metal shield instead of the rotor. I don't know if it slipped enough to do any damage, but it hit the shield anyway.
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