[py0413]

Folks,

After trading in my F10 M5 back in 2015 and going through 2 SUVs, I am seriously considering moving back into a sporty sedan once again. The F90 and the Merc E63s are my top 2 list at this moment. (I'd take the M760 but that's off my range )

My biggest concern is the new M5 replaces the DCT with this new 8-speed AT. I get the idea how manufacturers are getting the rid of manual transmission nowadays due to lack of interest. BMW also seems to have a pretty good excuse for choosing the AT over the DCT.

However, for those who have been able to experience both, what are your thoughts on whether the character of the AT fits a M5?

I'd like to go out and test drive a M5 to answer myself those questions however, it's gonna be a while before I get to see in stock M5 that can be provided for test drive.

Cheers my friends,

[jensputzier]

Good question. I have had the M5 F10 for three years now until two weeks ago. I have driven an M5 F90 on the racetrack for two days and in traffic now for a few days.

I use the car(s) as a daily driver and use the transmission in automatic mode 99% of the time.

In my opinion the DCT in the F10 was one of the very few points I didn't like about the F10. It was much better than the SMG of the E60 but mine had a few hickups and shifting in automatic mode was not so smooth. Once a month it delivered a big bang when reversing and from 40.000 km on it made some minor mechanical sounds as if there was play in the drivetrain.

Plus the DCT lost oil twice in three years.

The automatic transmission in the F90 is in my eyes superior to the DCT in every aspect. Quick gearshifts even in automatic mode on the racetrack, and in daily driving it works as smooth as you would expect it.

In combination with the AWD the F90 is way better than the F10.

[BG23]

I owned an F10 for over 3 years and have had my F90 for 2 months. I prefer the auto by some margin - the DCT never really suited the M5. I found it a bit annoying around town and epic when you were really on it. Unfortunately most of my driving is around town.

The auto in comparison is awesome everywhere, giving up next to nothing when you are on it. Try for yourself but I don't think you'll miss the DCT.

N.B. I like dual clutch boxes, they just don't seem to work as well on heavy turbo charged cars

[Aronis]

The key is the ability for the transmission to handle the higher levels of power. The traditional torque converter transmissions can handle more power and thus all the manufactures have gone back to this type of transmission. The newer "slush boxes" shift very fast. If I recall correctly the fastest shifting automatic transmission is a torque converter type and is in the Ferrari. The Dual Clutch systems offer a more "sporty" aggressive drive, when you get on an M2 with the DCT it kicks you in the A** when it upshifts. I find the F90 shifts every bit as quickly as the M2 did. But as far as handling power, correct me on this, I thought BMW certified the SMG to be good for 1000 hp????? I like a margin of safety on my cars and hope the F90's transmission has similar headroom. It just speaks to longevity. After living with an RS6 for 14 years, I was in fear that the transmission would die as that transmission was "just strong enough" for that engine. Those who tuned the RS6 learned quickly how much a new transmission costs. YIKES.

Mike

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by Aronis

The key is the ability for the transmission to handle the higher levels of power. The traditional torque converter transmissions can handle more power and thus all the manufactures have gone back to this type of transmission. The newer "slush boxes" shift very fast. If I recall correctly the fastest shifting automatic transmission is a torque converter type and is in the Ferrari. The Dual Clutch systems offer a more "sporty" aggressive drive, when you get on an M2 with the DCT it kicks you in the A** when it upshifts. I find the F90 shifts every bit as quickly as the M2 did. But as far as handling power, correct me on this, I thought BMW certified the SMG to be good for 1000 hp????? I like a margin of safety on my cars and hope the F90's transmission has similar headroom. It just speaks to longevity. After living with an RS6 for 14 years, I was in fear that the transmission would die as that transmission was "just strong enough" for that engine. Those who tuned the RS6 learned quickly how much a new transmission costs. YIKES.

Mike

All the current production Ferrari uses DCT from Getrag. Same company BMW sourced DCT for their M cars.

[Aronis]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

All the current production Ferrari uses DCT from Getrag. Same company BMW sourced DCT for their M cars.

thanks for the update.....is that new for Ferrari?

Mike

[Vic55]

While I do not have an F90 M5, I have had many ZF's in higher powered cars: Tuned RS7's, Tuned Bentley GT3R, Tuned Jag F type R and 5 M DCT's. The hardware in these units are usually static; the key is in the software where in the RS7 and Bentley the shifting speeds, feel, and tranny intuition was very good. There were days where I would drive either of these cars and then get into one of my M's or other DCT cars and would not even notice the difference. The Jag not so much. I have no doubt the F90 has great software to mate up well with the ZF so the gains in DCT speed of shifts and fluidity are negligible at best.

One might be able to discern the difference in a planned roll race where all other factors are equal (DCT vs ZF) but just based on the sheer numbers and current owner testaments here, the ZF is doing just fine. And its clear the parasitic loss incorporated with tq converter tranny like the F90 is just not that great.

I think the fastest claimed shifting tq converter transmission was the GM one in the C7Z06.

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by Aronis

thanks for the update.....is that new for Ferrari?

Mike

I dont think I can remember when Ferrari had a true automatic. I had 2012 FF and 2014 458 and both were Getrags. So the DCT has been around for quite a while with F cars. Maybe some of the older cars used SMG style trannys but Phatcat will know better.

[Aronis]

I just recall reading that the Ferrari was the fastest shifting automatic but was not a clutch driven system? And the author was commenting on that and did not get it either!

Mike

[gblansten]

I had an F10 M5 and now have the 8-speed F15 X5M. I really like the X5M transmission. I don't think you will miss the DCT.

[RPiM5]

If I may be allowed to offer some periodic insight.

You have brought up the number 2 reason why the F90 M5 doesn't call to me.

But let's talk about the progression of transmissions for the M5 over the last decade or so and we'll only talk about performance and not reliability in this discussion, and we'll also leave out the Manual Transmission discussion.

First was the SMG in the E60 M5, which is my favorite transmission out of all generations. Why? Because it was a pure Race Transmission and it felt like it when you drove the car. However race transmissions are not good street transmissions and M Division switched over to the DCT because the usability of a Race Transmission on the street just wasn't practical in what was supposedly a family sedan. I can understand that.

The DCT is/was and is a capable of being both a Race Transmission and a Street Transmission. The problem with the M-DCT is that M-Division never took development of the DCT further to make it better for the street. The best transmissions I have ever driven have all been DCT's, but not in M-cars. I'm talking about the DCTs in Porches, Ferraris, and Lamborghinis. Especially that PDK, especially in a car like the 991.1/.2 GT3RS, where it has been specifically honed to a race car. The Porsche DCT in those cars are on a completely different level than a BMW M-DCT. The Porsche Transmission is every bit as smooth as the new ZF8 Auto in the F90 M5, if not even smoother, but it also feels 10 times faster. Like mindblowingly fast. In other words, if you ever get the chance to drive a 991 GT3RS or a Porsche 918 Spyder, those transmissions will blow your F'ing mind. But why are those DCT's so good, while other manufacturers like M-Division, Mercedes AMG, etc... not nearly as smooth and fast? It all comes down to extensive development, and especially software coding.

The ZF8 Auto in the F90 M5 and what will soon be the M8, was basically chosen because its Automatic Transmissions have indeed come a long way since the DCT was initially developed, great case in point in the 8Spd Auto in the Corvette Z06, but even more than that the ZF8 Auto is also cheaper than the DCT. For the F90 M5 in particular, the ZF8 was the smart option because:

- It's a transmission already in use by almost every BMW currently in production, thus saving costs by streamlining your product line with fewer parts to produce.

- It's come a long way in development. The software programming on the ZF8 auto is quite good these days, which allows these transmissions to be imperceptibly just as fast as the DCT to most non-enthusiast F90 M5 buyers.

- The ZF8 Auto has fewer moving parts and is less complicated than a DCT which equates to greater reliability. Plus with BMW already making this transmission for most of their entire line up, fixing one or replacing one will be way cheaper.

- The ZF8 stock single clutch is stronger and can hold a lot of torque, more than the M-DCT can.

- The ZF8 is a torque converter, or a fluid based transmission, making it very smooth for every day low speed street driving. Which is the kind of environment that 99.9% of all M5 owners will be operating their cars in. It just made more sense to put in a transmission that is more daily driver friendly even if it was at the expense of slower shift times than the DCT.

- With the new ///M xDrive system, the slower shift times of the ZF8 don't matter. Why? Again, because of the way that 99.9% of M5 drivers will be driving these cars, (i.e. stop light races against 19 year olds in their modded Subaru AWD WRX's.) It's not like M5 drivers are encountering Mclaren 720S's all day every day on their commute to the office, so why does a loss of a few milliseconds of shift speed matter then when the car can far more efficiently put the power to the ground with the AWD system. Additionally, the M5 although developed for the racetrack is not a good racetrack kind of car, so why does it need super fast shift times then?

What you lose though.

With the ZF8 as with the DCT, you lose that feeling of excitement, that feeling like your in a product derived from a real race car. From a GT3 Class car or Formula 1 car. Times have changed and M-Division now thinks that all new M car buyers are softer, older, and probably more responsible these days, and don't want a car that is impractical to own, hence no offer of even a 6MT for the F90 Generation. And maybe they're right, I'm sure that there's a room full of market analysts who analyze all this data and think that customer wants are changing. But I tell you this, and I will quote a good old movie here "build it and they will come." Meaning that if M-Division or any manufacturer decided to build a Sports Sedan with solely a 6Spd Manual Transmission but also has the performance of a Ferrari 488, people would still buy it. Or in this case, if M had taken the development of the DCT further to make it as smooth as a Porsche PDK in a 918 Spyder, people would still buy that too. But in the end its all about cost savings, but we as consumers benefit as well because the ZF8 is cheaper and is more reliable.

So it really just comes down to ones willingness to accept things as they are, or not. The fact is though that the ZF8 is a great transmission and no one will complain about it really, it's fast enough for the common folk, but for a few who desire more (that race car feeling, which is hard to put into words sometimes) the ZF8 doesn't cut it.

I still miss the days when you upshifted in an E60 M5 with the SMG and the gears shifted so hard, your teeth fillings almost fell out. That was a memorable experience. With the DCT I'll never forget my first experience upshifting gears on the Nurburging and being in utter disbelief as to how unbelievably fast it changed gears, the DCT seemed almost telepathic to me back then. That was a memorable experience.
Decades from now I'm sure a lot of people will remember what a good feeling it was for the F90 to lumber around a parking lot at the local grocery store without the car jerking back and forth in it's transition from 1st to 2nd gear and back down again with the ZF8, or probably not.

But I'm not complaining about M's decision about the ZF8. Most manufacturers are going this route as well and it is the transmission of choice by them in the short term future until something better and probably cheaper comes along. The article below sums it up best.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/w...-transmission/


The only question I am left with is, how much exactly in cost savings are we talking about here when it comes to putting a ZF8 in an M car versus something else? Especially when you look at the comparative numbers in production of a car like the M5 or M3 versus the BMW 3-Series in total. We're talking about the production of less than 100,000 M cars compared to hundreds of thousands if not millions of regular BMW's over the course of a single generation of these cars. Does it really save the company THAT much money? Would the company truly lose a lot of money by continuing a DCT in an M-car? Only the bean-counters at BMW really know this answer.

So to directly answer your question:

what are your thoughts on whether the character of the AT fits a M5?

I think that the ZF8 fits the character of the F90 M5 perfectly. In fact it helps defines the entire car, especially since the engine is re-used from the previous M5. But the F90 is more defined by the M xDrive than anything else. However, even if the ZF8 suits the F90, that still doesn't mean that we have to accept it. We always have a choice.



Unless choice is just an illusion, created by those with power and those without.

[Ex_Stig]

Originally Posted by Vic55

I dont think I can remember when Ferrari had a true automatic. I had 2012 FF and 2014 458 and both were Getrags. So the DCT has been around for quite a while with F cars. Maybe some of the older cars used SMG style trannys but Phatcat will know better.

I believe the 456 GTA was an automatic. But that was many, many moons ago.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by GNALUZU

I believe the 456 GTA was an automatic. But that was many, many moons ago.

Yes, it had a 4 speed automatic.

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

If I may be allowed to offer some periodic insight.

You have brought up the number 2 reason why the F90 M5 doesn't call to me.

But let's talk about the progression of transmissions for the M5 over the last decade or so and we'll only talk about performance and not reliability in this discussion, and we'll also leave out the Manual Transmission discussion.

First was the SMG in the E60 M5, which is my favorite transmission out of all generations. Why? Because it was a pure Race Transmission and it felt like it when you drove the car. However race transmissions are not good street transmissions and M Division switched over to the DCT because the usability of a Race Transmission on the street just wasn't practical in what was supposedly a family sedan. I can understand that.

The DCT is/was and is a capable of being both a Race Transmission and a Street Transmission. The problem with the M-DCT is that M-Division never took development of the DCT further to make it better for the street. The best transmissions I have ever driven have all been DCT's, but not in M-cars. I'm talking about the DCTs in Porches, Ferraris, and Lamborghinis. Especially that PDK, especially in a car like the 991.1/.2 GT3RS, where it has been specifically honed to a race car. The Porsche DCT in those cars are on a completely different level than a BMW M-DCT. The Porsche Transmission is every bit as smooth as the new ZF8 Auto in the F90 M5, if not even smoother, but it also feels 10 times faster. Like mindblowingly fast. In other words, if you ever get the chance to drive a 991 GT3RS or a Porsche 918 Spyder, those transmissions will blow your F'ing mind. But why are those DCT's so good, while other manufacturers like M-Division, Mercedes AMG, etc... not nearly as smooth and fast? It all comes down to extensive development, and especially software coding.

The ZF8 Auto in the F90 M5 and what will soon be the M8, was basically chosen because its Automatic Transmissions have indeed come a long way since the DCT was initially developed, great case in point in the 8Spd Auto in the Corvette Z06, but even more than that the ZF8 Auto is also cheaper than the DCT. For the F90 M5 in particular, the ZF8 was the smart option because:

- It's a transmission already in use by almost every BMW currently in production, thus saving costs by streamlining your product line with fewer parts to produce.

- It's come a long way in development. The software programming on the ZF8 auto is quite good these days, which allows these transmissions to be imperceptibly just as fast as the DCT to most non-enthusiast F90 M5 buyers.

- The ZF8 Auto has fewer moving parts and is less complicated than a DCT which equates to greater reliability. Plus with BMW already making this transmission for most of their entire line up, fixing one or replacing one will be way cheaper.

- The ZF8 stock single clutch is stronger and can hold a lot of torque, more than the M-DCT can.

- The ZF8 is a torque converter, or a fluid based transmission, making it very smooth for every day low speed street driving. Which is the kind of environment that 99.9% of all M5 owners will be operating their cars in. It just made more sense to put in a transmission that is more daily driver friendly even if it was at the expense of slower shift times than the DCT.

- With the new ///M xDrive system, the slower shift times of the ZF8 don't matter. Why? Again, because of the way that 99.9% of M5 drivers will be driving these cars, (i.e. stop light races against 19 year olds in their modded Subaru AWD WRX's.) It's not like M5 drivers are encountering Mclaren 720S's all day every day on their commute to the office, so why does a loss of a few milliseconds of shift speed matter then when the car can far more efficiently put the power to the ground with the AWD system. Additionally, the M5 although developed for the racetrack is not a good racetrack kind of car, so why does it need super fast shift times then?

What you lose though.

With the ZF8 as with the DCT, you lose that feeling of excitement, that feeling like your in a product derived from a real race car. From a GT3 Class car or Formula 1 car. Times have changed and M-Division now thinks that all new M car buyers are softer, older, and probably more responsible these days, and don't want a car that is impractical to own, hence no offer of even a 6MT for the F90 Generation. And maybe they're right, I'm sure that there's a room full of market analysts who analyze all this data and think that customer wants are changing. But I tell you this, and I will quote a good old movie here "build it and they will come." Meaning that if M-Division or any manufacturer decided to build a Sports Sedan with solely a 6Spd Manual Transmission but also has the performance of a Ferrari 488, people would still buy it. Or in this case, if M had taken the development of the DCT further to make it as smooth as a Porsche PDK in a 918 Spyder, people would still buy that too. But in the end its all about cost savings, but we as consumers benefit as well because the ZF8 is cheaper and is more reliable.

So it really just comes down to ones willingness to accept things as they are, or not. The fact is though that the ZF8 is a great transmission and no one will complain about it really, it's fast enough for the common folk, but for a few who desire more (that race car feeling, which is hard to put into words sometimes) the ZF8 doesn't cut it.

I still miss the days when you upshifted in an E60 M5 with the SMG and the gears shifted so hard, your teeth fillings almost fell out. That was a memorable experience. With the DCT I'll never forget my first experience upshifting gears on the Nurburging and being in utter disbelief as to how unbelievably fast it changed gears, the DCT seemed almost telepathic to me back then. That was a memorable experience.
Decades from now I'm sure a lot of people will remember what a good feeling it was for the F90 to lumber around a parking lot at the local grocery store without the car jerking back and forth in it's transition from 1st to 2nd gear and back down again with the ZF8, or probably not.

But I'm not complaining about M's decision about the ZF8. Most manufacturers are going this route as well and it is the transmission of choice by them in the short term future until something better and probably cheaper comes along. The article below sums it up best.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/w...-transmission/


The only question I am left with is, how much exactly in cost savings are we talking about here when it comes to putting a ZF8 in an M car versus something else? Especially when you look at the comparative numbers in production of a car like the M5 or M3 versus the BMW 3-Series in total. We're talking about the production of less than 100,000 M cars compared to hundreds of thousands if not millions of regular BMW's over the course of a single generation of these cars. Does it really save the company THAT much money? Would the company truly lose a lot of money by continuing a DCT in an M-car? Only the bean-counters at BMW really know this answer.

So to directly answer your question:

what are your thoughts on whether the character of the AT fits a M5?

I think that the ZF8 fits the character of the F90 M5 perfectly. In fact it helps defines the entire car, especially since the engine is re-used from the previous M5. But the F90 is more defined by the M xDrive than anything else. However, even if the ZF8 suits the F90, that still doesn't mean that we have to accept it. We always have a choice.



Unless choice is just an illusion, created by those with power and those without.

Once you asked "if I may be allowed..." I skipped your writeup LOL... I joke Dave- well not really

I already mentioned software so Im right and you copied me

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by Vic55

Once you asked "if I may be allowed..." I skipped your writeup LOL... I joke Dave- well not really

I already mentioned software so Im right and you copied me

I copy no-one!

Didn't see your post until just now, but you also had a great point about parasitic loss. I forgot about that. Hope you are well old friend.

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by GNALUZU

I believe the 456 GTA was an automatic. But that was many, many moons ago.

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Yes, it had a 4 speed automatic.

Awww yes thanks guys and that ended 15 years ago (as a 2003 model).

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

If I may be allowed to offer some periodic insight.

You have brought up the number 2 reason why the F90 M5 doesn't call to me.

But let's talk about the progression of transmissions for the M5 over the last decade or so and we'll only talk about performance and not reliability in this discussion, and we'll also leave out the Manual Transmission discussion.

First was the SMG in the E60 M5, which is my favorite transmission out of all generations. Why? Because it was a pure Race Transmission and it felt like it when you drove the car. However race transmissions are not good street transmissions and M Division switched over to the DCT because the usability of a Race Transmission on the street just wasn't practical in what was supposedly a family sedan. I can understand that.

The DCT is/was and is a capable of being both a Race Transmission and a Street Transmission. The problem with the M-DCT is that M-Division never took development of the DCT further to make it better for the street. The best transmissions I have ever driven have all been DCT's, but not in M-cars. I'm talking about the DCTs in Porches, Ferraris, and Lamborghinis. Especially that PDK, especially in a car like the 991.1/.2 GT3RS, where it has been specifically honed to a race car. The Porsche DCT in those cars are on a completely different level than a BMW M-DCT. The Porsche Transmission is every bit as smooth as the new ZF8 Auto in the F90 M5, if not even smoother, but it also feels 10 times faster. Like mindblowingly fast. In other words, if you ever get the chance to drive a 991 GT3RS or a Porsche 918 Spyder, those transmissions will blow your F'ing mind. But why are those DCT's so good, while other manufacturers like M-Division, Mercedes AMG, etc... not nearly as smooth and fast? It all comes down to extensive development, and especially software coding.

The ZF8 Auto in the F90 M5 and what will soon be the M8, was basically chosen because its Automatic Transmissions have indeed come a long way since the DCT was initially developed, great case in point in the 8Spd Auto in the Corvette Z06, but even more than that the ZF8 Auto is also cheaper than the DCT. For the F90 M5 in particular, the ZF8 was the smart option because:

- It's a transmission already in use by almost every BMW currently in production, thus saving costs by streamlining your product line with fewer parts to produce.

- It's come a long way in development. The software programming on the ZF8 auto is quite good these days, which allows these transmissions to be imperceptibly just as fast as the DCT to most non-enthusiast F90 M5 buyers.

- The ZF8 Auto has fewer moving parts and is less complicated than a DCT which equates to greater reliability. Plus with BMW already making this transmission for most of their entire line up, fixing one or replacing one will be way cheaper.

- The ZF8 stock single clutch is stronger and can hold a lot of torque, more than the M-DCT can.

- The ZF8 is a torque converter, or a fluid based transmission, making it very smooth for every day low speed street driving. Which is the kind of environment that 99.9% of all M5 owners will be operating their cars in. It just made more sense to put in a transmission that is more daily driver friendly even if it was at the expense of slower shift times than the DCT.

- With the new ///M xDrive system, the slower shift times of the ZF8 don't matter. Why? Again, because of the way that 99.9% of M5 drivers will be driving these cars, (i.e. stop light races against 19 year olds in their modded Subaru AWD WRX's.) It's not like M5 drivers are encountering Mclaren 720S's all day every day on their commute to the office, so why does a loss of a few milliseconds of shift speed matter then when the car can far more efficiently put the power to the ground with the AWD system. Additionally, the M5 although developed for the racetrack is not a good racetrack kind of car, so why does it need super fast shift times then?

What you lose though.

With the ZF8 as with the DCT, you lose that feeling of excitement, that feeling like your in a product derived from a real race car. From a GT3 Class car or Formula 1 car. Times have changed and M-Division now thinks that all new M car buyers are softer, older, and probably more responsible these days, and don't want a car that is impractical to own, hence no offer of even a 6MT for the F90 Generation. And maybe they're right, I'm sure that there's a room full of market analysts who analyze all this data and think that customer wants are changing. But I tell you this, and I will quote a good old movie here "build it and they will come." Meaning that if M-Division or any manufacturer decided to build a Sports Sedan with solely a 6Spd Manual Transmission but also has the performance of a Ferrari 488, people would still buy it. Or in this case, if M had taken the development of the DCT further to make it as smooth as a Porsche PDK in a 918 Spyder, people would still buy that too. But in the end its all about cost savings, but we as consumers benefit as well because the ZF8 is cheaper and is more reliable.

So it really just comes down to ones willingness to accept things as they are, or not. The fact is though that the ZF8 is a great transmission and no one will complain about it really, it's fast enough for the common folk, but for a few who desire more (that race car feeling, which is hard to put into words sometimes) the ZF8 doesn't cut it.

I still miss the days when you upshifted in an E60 M5 with the SMG and the gears shifted so hard, your teeth fillings almost fell out. That was a memorable experience. With the DCT I'll never forget my first experience upshifting gears on the Nurburging and being in utter disbelief as to how unbelievably fast it changed gears, the DCT seemed almost telepathic to me back then. That was a memorable experience.
Decades from now I'm sure a lot of people will remember what a good feeling it was for the F90 to lumber around a parking lot at the local grocery store without the car jerking back and forth in it's transition from 1st to 2nd gear and back down again with the ZF8, or probably not.

But I'm not complaining about M's decision about the ZF8. Most manufacturers are going this route as well and it is the transmission of choice by them in the short term future until something better and probably cheaper comes along. The article below sums it up best.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/w...-transmission/


The only question I am left with is, how much exactly in cost savings are we talking about here when it comes to putting a ZF8 in an M car versus something else? Especially when you look at the comparative numbers in production of a car like the M5 or M3 versus the BMW 3-Series in total. We're talking about the production of less than 100,000 M cars compared to hundreds of thousands if not millions of regular BMW's over the course of a single generation of these cars. Does it really save the company THAT much money? Would the company truly lose a lot of money by continuing a DCT in an M-car? Only the bean-counters at BMW really know this answer.

So to directly answer your question:

what are your thoughts on whether the character of the AT fits a M5?

I think that the ZF8 fits the character of the F90 M5 perfectly. In fact it helps defines the entire car, especially since the engine is re-used from the previous M5. But the F90 is more defined by the M xDrive than anything else. However, even if the ZF8 suits the F90, that still doesn't mean that we have to accept it. We always have a choice.



Unless choice is just an illusion, created by those with power and those without.

Thoughtful post.

[elitex]

I think Graziano makes one of the best DCT imo.

[Quickburn7]

Originally Posted by Vic55

Awww yes thanks guys and that ended 15 years ago (as a 2003 model).

I bought one of those ( my second Ferrari ever ) and never lost so much money on a car in 2 years of ownership and maybe 5k miles

[py0413]

Thanks guys, your thoughts and inputs are very much appreciated. I booked an appointment today for a test drive of F90 M5 next weekend. Looking forward to experience the difference myself. So far I haven't tried any AT that come close to what DCT can offer in terms of sports car feeling, but they are mostly on SUVs though.

[Herofmine]

I don't know what you guys talking about but DCT on my M5 (tuned and properly calibrated) very smooth never jerks, but on my E92 M3 it was very jerky around the town.
But if we will talk about reliability yes F90 M5 will be much more reliable than F10, F10 M5's suffer from weak axels, diff mount and diff itself they are know to break when it's tuned and DCT clutches cant hold more than 750tq.

[kyrix1st]

Main reason why M went with ZFat instead of DCT is because bulk of owners who've never driven a manual transmission wouldn't shut up about transmission jerkiness.