[Led_Zep_Fan]

I'm posting in hopes of gaining some insight on a major warranty issue I'm currently facing. I apologize in advance for the long post.

I purchased my 2021 M5 Competition new in October 2020. 43 miles on the odometer. Up until a couple weeks ago, I have had zero issues with the car. It has been a great vehicle overall. On 1/12/2024 while driving home on the interstate, I noticed a knocking sound coming from the engine. This was a routine commute, nothing out of the ordinary. I brought the car into the dealership the next day. The service technician listened to the engine and told me he suspected a rod bearing failure or some other major structural issue. The car has 41,038 miles currently and is under the factory warranty. Due to this being a potentially very expensive issue, BMW sent one of their specialists out to inspect the engine. I received a call a few days later from my service advisor informing me that the engine was found to have a bent rod and a damaged piston. Basically the engine is toast and needs to be replaced.

Here's the shocker: he informed me that when the technician checked the ECU, the car was found to have been "tuned" (the service advisor's words) and would therefore not be covered under the warranty. When I asked for further details, he told me that the computer flagged four values in the software that did not match the expected values. He could not tell me any additional details on what exactly had been altered. I was blindsided by this as I have NEVER tuned the car in any form or fashion. I am very aware that this can void the warranty and it is not something I would have risked. I also do not track the car or use it for anything other than a daily driver.

I had a talk with the service manager at the dealership on what might have caused this failure. We recently had some heavy rainfall and I did recall driving through some standing water on the road 3 days prior to the knocking. He suspected that the damage was due to water getting into the engine. If that was the case, it would be considered an "act of god" and would be covered under my regular insurance. So, I filed a claim with my insurance provider. Their inspector examined the car a couple days ago and there was apparently no evidence of water in the engine. There is currently an oil analysis pending to further evaluate this, and those results should be back in a week or so. If no evidence of water is found, my insurance will deny an engine replacement since the car is still under the factory warranty.

The car has had some modifications including an Eisenmann race exhaust (this is a catback system, no valves) and Eventuri air intakes. It has the stock downpipes, stock cats, no other powertrain modifications at all. The exhaust system was installed by a reputable independent shop and the intake was installed by myself. I called the shop that performed the exhaust install and spoke with the owner who performed the work himself. He assured me that they did not touch the ECU. I believe him as I did not ask for any sort of "tune" nor does the invoice from that job reflect anything of the sort. He told me that they do not even have the capability to tune the car there. Other than that, the car has only ever been serviced at BMW dealerships and I have all of those records.

Just this evening, I was reviewing the old service records and I remembered that there was a recall/delivery stop shortly after I purchased the car. It was a fuel tank ventilation issue (https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...84574-9999.pdf). The ECU was reprogrammed to correct this when I brought it in for its 1200 mile service. I remember that this completely wiped all my settings and basically reset the car. I am thinking that this could be the source of the altered values in the ECU. I truly have no other explanation.

So here I am with my insurance provider denying the claim due to no evidence of water in the engine and BMW denying the claim due to the ECU not matching what they expect. And a new engine for this car runs around $40-50K installed. Not exactly pocket change. I am very frustrated as I know for a fact that I have not tuned the car. I'm really not sure what my next move should be. Is there a possibility that something nefarious is going on with BMW? I hate to think that, but clearly something is not adding up. The ECU update at the 1200 mile service is giving me some hope of an explanation, but I'm just not optimistic at this point. I'm not sure how I would even prove that. I'm thinking that I probably just need to lawyer up at this point, but I was really hoping to avoid that. Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated. Happy to provide any further details.

TLDR: M5 engine failed under warranty (possible hydrolock but no evidence of that so far), ECU values appear to have been altered, BMW denying warranty claim as a result. Looking at a $50K engine replacement and hoping for advice on next steps.

[crypto]

The whole situation doesn’t make any sense as they should be able to tell you what these magic values that don’t match tied to the ECU are exactly. Further, how can you go from .. it must be tuned to.. oh yeah driving through some water could have caused it? Makes no sense.

I would maintain the position that whatever values they see being off are irrelevant and perhaps is more evidence of a problem from
BMW and not you. You didn’t tune your car and you can just tell them to fk off with suggesting otherwise.

Not sure how best to force the issue. Perhaps a few more conversations and then involve a lawyer if it isn’t settled soon.

[Aronis]

Sorry for your misfortune. Yikes.

Mike

[GTTC]

Im not 100% sure (no BMW expert) but unless someone can prove to me how to hydrolock this engine I call it BS. The engine intake manifolds are at the “bottom” of the car, sure; but the open intake area is at the upper part of the front grille. Unless you have taken the car for a swim I cannot understand the hydrolock comment especially 1 cylinder.
And most likely 100 fault codes. I would force the dealer to show me the numbers. An independent shop may be able to pull data as well and compare.

[pbonsalb]

You may have to hire a lawyer and the exhaust shop or another as an expert witness to overcome BMW’s denial. In the discovery phase of the litigation, BMW will have to disclose their basis for denial — the 4 values.

BMW will point to the intake and exhaust, which are definitely aftermarket parts. Supposedly, intakes allow more air in and exhausts allow more air out. All the data I have seen on the internet suggests that neither add any power on these cars, at least at anywhere near stock power levels. BMW sells other exhausts so they likely won’t get anywhere claiming it caused the problem. They don’t sell any intakes, though.

If you owned the car from new and it was never tuned or piggybacked, you probably have a reasonable case that is worth investing the legal fees to support, especially since paying out of pocket for a motor is a expensive. Hope the insurance claim works so you don’t have to go through the hassle, but they will be investigating also and the dealer that said it might be water damage may say they think it was tuned.

[carseatsm5]

Really sorry to hear this. Not sure what you can do other than to scream at them and hire a lawyer.

[M5KEITH]

My bet you got water thru the intake to the motor and oil analysis will confirm.

Note, you never tuned the car but tech indicated your engine parameters were off and that was because you have an aftermarket intake which allows for more air flow to motor thus changing stock parameters.

Keep us posted!

[AHall]

This is really an unfortunate situation. Does a bent rod really require an engine replacement? It appears the car was running when you brought it in to BMW.

Please let us know how this turns out. They probably saw the aftermarket parts and began looking for further modifications. Maybe things would have gone differently if you returned the vehicle to stock before taking it to BMW. Water under the bridge now.

[Greer]

Originally Posted by AHall

This is really an unfortunate situation. They saw the aftermarket parts and began looking for further modifications.

Yeah, they assumed that people who add exhaust and intake must also add a tune to the car. Please keep us updated on the final outcome here.

[Led_Zep_Fan]

Appreciate all the replies so far. I think the most frustrating thing is that I did my research on all of this extensively before adding any of the modifications. I was told by the dealership that an air intake and exhaust would not violate the warranty, which is why I did not add a tune, downpipes, etc. The intake and exhaust were added to enhance the sound of the car, not to add any power. Frankly, it is fast as hell stock and definitely more than enough to serve its purpose as my daily driver. I baby this car to be honest.

Very frustrating overall, and it looks like a deep dive into the ECU is warranted. Will certainly provide updates as they come.

I created a Reddit thread on this too if anyone is interested:
https://www.reddit.com/r/BMW/s/EysUvgtJaR

[BeAtCoAsTeR]

Well, first of all, feel free to ask them how they know the car is 'tuned' when you would still have the factory BMW locked ECU/DME's!?!?!? Starting in 2021, the only way the car can be 'tuned' is by removing them from the car and shipping them out of the country - which BMW can see when they read the ECU!! You need to know what those 4 values are, and from there can begin to call them on their bullshit...

As witnessed by myself now having to take a 'repaired' shortblock car into a dealer for multiple things not correctly installed during the repair process, less than 3k miles ago, yet deemed perfectly fine during a different dealer's $350 multi-point inspection - I wish you the best of luck my friend! I think the BMW techs are pushed to not disclose any true warranty issues they find/see by corporate, as it's amazing how they can find nothing, but after I hired an independent certified BMW tech, he found a laundry list, cause he wasn't married to his paycheck from BMW corporate...

The fact that these dealers are so quick to call out an intake or exhaust is laughable, as the engine will inherently function better when it can breathe better, yet the ECU(and especially a locked one!!) will not allow for massive and detrimental additional amounts of fueling/timing that might stress the engine. If the car was truly hydrolocked, you'd know it, as you wouldn't be driving it anywhere...I call BS on everything they're saying.

[Led_Zep_Fan]

Originally Posted by BeAtCoAsTeR

Starting in 2021, the only way the car can be 'tuned' is by removing them from the car and shipping them out of the country - which BMW can see when they read the ECU!!

That is what the independent shop that did the exhaust install told me as well.

I appreciate your reply and the additional info. I am definitely going to find out what the altered ECU values are. I talked with the dealership about this, and they made it sound like there was no way to definitively tell what values were changed or when. That was surprising to me, and likely untrue as I am now realizing. I have also heard multiple times now that they should be able to see if the ECU was flashed and how many times.

I am way ahead of you on calling BS. I know with 100% certainty that I have not tuned the car, so that is giving me hope. I just have to gather all the evidence to present my case (and hopefully not in court). There is just no way that installing a bolt-on intake and exhaust suddenly caused the car to increase its power level to the point where it grenades the engine.

I honestly can understand their suspicion, as I'm sure they have seen tuned cars with owners that try to deny it, but that is not the case here. And it really seems that they have not been forthcoming at all on getting to the bottom of this issue.

[Led_Zep_Fan]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

If you owned the car from new and it was never tuned or piggybacked, you probably have a reasonable case that is worth investing the legal fees to support, especially since paying out of pocket for a motor is a expensive. Hope the insurance claim works so you don’t have to go through the hassle, but they will be investigating also and the dealer that said it might be water damage may say they think it was tuned.

Thank you for your advice. I was hoping to avoid the legal route if possible but it is looking more likely. I will probably try to present my side of the story again now that I have gotten more information. Hopefully they will come around.

Any idea if I can compel them to show me the ECU data without going the legal route? A poster on reddit suggested that I bypass the dealership and go directly to BMW corporate (and also to open a PUMA case, but I'm not sure what that is).

[M550bernina]

Originally Posted by Led_Zep_Fan

Thank you for your advice. I was hoping to avoid the legal route if possible but it is looking more likely. I will probably try to present my side of the story again now that I have gotten more information. Hopefully they will come around.

Any idea if I can compel them to show me the ECU data without going the legal route? A poster on reddit suggested that I bypass the dealership and go directly to BMW corporate (and also to open a PUMA case, but I'm not sure what that is).

If I can put this in perspective a little... It is not your job or responsibility to prove innocent, it is BMW's job to prove guilt.

This whole story is a bit off, as in BMW and the dealership is off base here somewhere.

The first thing a dealership has to do in a case like this is bring in a BMW engineer to go through the ECU. And yes, they really can see everything when they do this. For piggyback tunes, it is the parameters that will tell them that there was a piggyback. Obviously you don't have your ECU tuned because you would have had it unlocked to tune.

The dealership really should be your representative in this circumstance. It's in their best interest, as well as BMWs to make sure they get this right.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with social media, but your story, if true that you didn't tune it in any way, we'll go viral. This is very bad for your dealer, BMW and the M division. Your story is every BMW owner's biggest concern.

[Led_Zep_Fan]

Originally Posted by M550bernina

If I can put this in perspective a little... It is not your job or responsibility to prove innocent, it is BMW's job to prove guilt.

Really appreciate your perspective.

They did bring in a corporate engineer to look at the car, which is why I was surprised that they couldn't give me more information on this alleged tune. Although, I am not sure who actually checked the engine code, the dealership or the engineer.

It is a hard fact that I have never tuned the ECU, so I'll be happy to blast this story across every form of social media I can find.

[SQ5]

Originally Posted by Led_Zep_Fan

Really appreciate your perspective.

They did bring in a corporate engineer to look at the car, which is why I was surprised that they couldn't give me more information on this alleged tune. Although, I am not sure who actually checked the engine code, the dealership or the engineer.

It is a hard fact that I have never tuned the ECU, so I'll be happy to blast this story across every form of social media I can find.

What dealer is this in ATL? I'll make sure NOT to go to this one.

[pbonsalb]

While it is true BMW has the burden of proof, they also have denied a warranty claim. You can sit there for 5 years and tell them they have the burden of proof, but that probably won’t help you much. What are you going to do when they don’t respond — and it looks like they are not responding? To force BMW to respond, you may have to file suit. Then they will have to sustain their burden.

Certainly try lesser things first. Contact BMW corporate. Start a social media campaign that makes BMW look bad. Hire a lawyer to write BMW a threatening letter — most lawyers ask the other side to do the right thing and file suit only as a last resort.

Send Res Ipsa a PM. He says he is a consumer protection law expert. One advantage of consumer protection claims is you can get legal fees and multiple damages. Legal fees are normally a big deterrent to litigating since they can end up being as much as the value of the case in a small case. I am a retired lawyer now, and litigated only a few cases that included consumer protection claims. There may be something there that would support a count alleging violation of consumer protection law.

I have read of a few intrepid individuals filing small claims actions themselves against BMW. One guy filed a claim for rod bearing damage in an S65 (E9x M3). He brought his mechanic to the hearing. He won … BMW did not show up. I don’t know the small claim limits in your state. In some states they are pretty low, like $10k, which would not cover the damage here. $25k might cover a used motor plus installation. Probably have to be $50k if you want to pay a BMW dealer to install a new motor. Small claims is supposed to be DIY friendly.

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

You may have to hire a lawyer and the exhaust shop or another as an expert witness to overcome BMW’s denial. In the discovery phase of the litigation, BMW will have to disclose their basis for denial — the 4 values.

BMW will point to the intake and exhaust, which are definitely aftermarket parts. Supposedly, intakes allow more air in and exhausts allow more air out. All the data I have seen on the internet suggests that neither add any power on these cars, at least at anywhere near stock power levels. BMW sells other exhausts so they likely won’t get anywhere claiming it caused the problem. They don’t sell any intakes, though.

If you owned the car from new and it was never tuned or piggybacked, you probably have a reasonable case that is worth investing the legal fees to support, especially since paying out of pocket for a motor is a expensive. Hope the insurance claim works so you don’t have to go through the hassle, but they will be investigating also and the dealer that said it might be water damage may say they think it was tuned.

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

While it is true BMW has the burden of proof, they also have denied a warranty claim. You can sit there for 5 years and tell them they have the burden of proof, but that probably won’t help you much. What are you going to do when they don’t respond — and it looks like they are not responding? To force BMW to respond, you may have to file suit. Then they will have to sustain their burden.

Certainly try lesser things first. Contact BMW corporate. Start a social media campaign that makes BMW look bad. Hire a lawyer to write BMW a threatening letter — most lawyers ask the other side to do the right thing and file suit only as a last resort.

Send Res Ipsa a PM. He says he is a consumer protection law expert. One advantage of consumer protection claims is you can get legal fees and multiple damages. Legal fees are normally a big deterrent to litigating since they can end up being as much as the value of the case in a small case. I am a retired lawyer now, and litigated only a few cases that included consumer protection claims. There may be something there that would support a count alleging violation of consumer protection law.

I have read of a few intrepid individuals filing small claims actions themselves against BMW. One guy filed a claim for rod bearing damage in an S65 (E9x M3). He brought his mechanic to the hearing. He won … BMW did not show up. I don’t know the small claim limits in your state. In some states they are pretty low, like $10k, which would not cover the damage here. $25k might cover a used motor plus installation. [...]

I agree with everything stated here by the Counselor, who has highlighted some very valid points.

OP, I am so sorry you’re going through this. I’d be happy to speak with you. PM me.

[AHall]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

While it is true BMW has the burden of proof, they also have denied a warranty claim. You can sit there for 5 years and tell them they have the burden of proof, but that probably won’t help you much. What are you going to do when they don’t respond — and it looks like they are not responding? To force BMW to respond, you may have to file suit. Then they will have to sustain their burden.

Certainly try lesser things first. Contact BMW corporate. Start a social media campaign that makes BMW look bad. Hire a lawyer to write BMW a threatening letter — most lawyers ask the other side to do the right thing and file suit only as a last resort.

Send Res Ipsa a PM. He says he is a consumer protection law expert. One advantage of consumer protection claims is you can get legal fees and multiple damages. Legal fees are normally a big deterrent to litigating since they can end up being as much as the value of the case in a small case. I am a retired lawyer now, and litigated only a few cases that included consumer protection claims. There may be something there that would support a count alleging violation of consumer protection law.

I have read of a few intrepid individuals filing small claims actions themselves against BMW. One guy filed a claim for rod bearing damage in an S65 (E9x M3). He brought his mechanic to the hearing. He won … BMW did not show up. I don’t know the small claim limits in your state. In some states they are pretty low, like $10k, which would not cover the damage here. $25k might cover a used motor plus installation. [...]

pbonsalb do you think a bent rod really requires a new engine? I understand BMW dealerships may have a policy of replacing engines instead of rebuilding, but given the car was still running maybe the repair would be a fraction of the cost of a new engine.

I have unfortunately sued a lot of people in my life but never a business. For the problem has always been collecting. Winning a case is one thing, collecting that judgement is something else. Do businesses typically pay judgements?

[Maverik259]

Originally Posted by AHall

pbonsalb do you think a bent rod really requires a new engine? I understand BMW dealerships may have a policy of replacing engines instead of rebuilding, but given the car was still running maybe the repair would be a fraction of the cost of a new engine.

I have unfortunately sued a lot of people in my life but never a business. For the problem has always been collecting. Winning a case is one thing, collecting that judgement is something else. Do businesses typically pay judgements?

the engine replacement is not solely due to the bent rod but the damage the bent rod does to the cylinder lining which to a auto manufacturer stand point like most things is replace over repair.

is it repairable, most likely yes but costly and timely, bent rod most likely led to scaring of the cylinder wall which would require a new rod, cyclinder, and a boring followed by new iron lining of sort. Also not sure if you can do that to just 1 cylinder or need to do all 8. I remember something simliar happened to a guy in england and Mr. Vanos had the dudes engine for over 6 months repairing it due to parts issues etc.

Everyone also needs to remember that a tune 90% of the time is just a piggyback so no point in anchoring on the fact the ECUs are locked or whatever. Most people dont DME tune these cars.

End of the day, BMW is going to ALWAYS look for any reason to deny a claim. Its quite literally there job. Bean counters run corporations, even those claimed to be about the driver enthusiast or whatever bmw marketing says these days. Thats why the engine bay is littered with cheap plastic and leaking plastic coolant tanks. Hell even the rods on the F90 S63 were changed to be more cost effective when compared to the F10. Everything is about cost and EPA. Although i believe they added the iron spray on lining to the LCI engine which the pre-LCI did not have, so the fact it still damaged it is unfortunate but most likely why you could still drive it.

You should be able to get at least a little further by contacting BMW USA yourself and pleading your case if the dealer won't do it for you which sounds like they won't. They care more about their relationship with corporate than their relationship with a single customer. Not their fault, again just business.

So yes, start shopping around for lawyers. Let BMW know you have a lawyer because you know you have never tuned the vehicle and hopefully they don't have to prove it in a court of law.

Either way, you're most likely out a car for several months if not years.

[Redacre]

Man I hope this gets resolved in your favor. It sounds awful. When you buy the car new you have the luxury of knowing exactly how it was treated and maintained, so for them to somehow turn around and say you did something that you know you didn't is insane and frustrating.

I too had a rod bearing cause catastrophic failure on my M5 Competition. And I also had the initial warranty claim denied. In my case, it was more of a record-keeping issue and I was luckily able to point to statements in writing made by the dealer that sold me the car to make my case and I got the motor replaced but it took about 3 months. Do you have all your maintenance/service records?

I did not use a lawyer, but in retrospect I think it would have sped the process up and reduced my stress level. I did contact several and the free advice I got was that the compensation would be a new motor and I would still be responsible for attorney costs.

[Ervin87]

Tuned engine will produce way more boost than stock. They have all that data. Have them show you how much PSI the logs show.