[Maverik259]

Originally Posted by 916_M5

Sorry to revive an old thread. But does any one have any experience with Motul Sport oil with Ester on our F90? And if so which weight did you use?

Weight doesn't change based on brand. Motul is good stuff. Never heard of Esther

[California209]

I'll just chime in since I didn't see anyone note but here it is.

BP was awarded BMW oil contract in 2021 for USA, Canada, Mexico. With that said BMW oil is Castrol oil witch I belive is advertised as Castrol Edge 0w-30.

Personally I use Liquid Moly 0w-30 along with a bottle of Liquid Moly Ceratec.
I also suggest doing oil changes based on driving habits. If you track your car and use as a daily driver or you street race, drive hard everyday, you want to do oil changes more frequently.
I do mine every 2500- 3000K
If you never had your car over a 100mph well maybe you should buy a Prius sell the BMW!

Have a nice Day!

[Maverik259]

Originally Posted by California209

I'll just chime in since I didn't see anyone note but here it is.

BP was awarded BMW oil contract in 2021 for USA, Canada, Mexico. With that said BMW oil is Castrol oil witch I belive is advertised as Castrol Edge 0w-30.

Personally I use Liquid Moly 0w-30 along with a bottle of Liquid Moly Ceratec.
I also suggest doing oil changes based on driving habits. If you track your car and use as a daily driver or you street race, drive hard everyday, you want to do oil changes more frequently.
I do mine every 2500- 3000K
If you never had your car over a 100mph well maybe you should buy a Prius sell the BMW!

Have a nice Day!

Not really sure what’s supposed to be new in this statement but yes Castrol used to supply oil to bmw. Then it was shell for like 7 years. Now it’s back to Castrol. Really Doesn’t make one bit of difference in the end. And your 2500mile oil changes without any amplifying info are completely unnecessary. Do you track often?

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by 916_M5

Sorry to revive an old thread. But does any one have any experience with Motul Sport oil with Ester on our F90? And if so which weight did you use?

Motul is superb oil. For those making fun with "Esther", ester oils vs. PAO oils are two different kinds of molecules used in synthetic oils. No one has ever shown that modern PAO's are better than esters, but way back in the old days, natural esters were WAYYYY better than original mineral oil (the first was castrol, unless my memory fails me).

Different companies use different molecules. Redline and Motul prefer Esters, while Mobil uses PAO's. I haven't studied LiquiMoly enough yet to know for certain what their chemistry is.

Shawn

[Maverik259]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Motul is superb oil. For those making fun with "Esther", ester oils vs. PAO oils are two different kinds of molecules used in synthetic oils. No one has ever shown that modern PAO's are better than esters, but way back in the old days, natural esters were WAYYYY better than original mineral oil (the first was castrol, unless my memory fails me).

Different companies use different molecules. Redline and Motul prefer Esters, while Mobil uses PAO's. I haven't studied LiquiMoly enough yet to know for certain what their chemistry is.

Shawn

Hmm. Interesting. Never heard of these

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Maverik259

Hmm. Interesting. Never heard of these

The two things in your car that probably have the MOST amount of sophistication (cumulative) in their engineering are the oil, and the transmission fluid (trannie fluid more than oil, honestly).

The technology of making something spin at 10,000 rpm for 100,000 miles is VERY sophisticated.

There are "tribologists" that probably have spent an entire lifetime on working on a specific additive package for a specific kind of oil.

Shawn

[hunter8793]

So is Redline 0w40 BMW LL-01 a no go?

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by hunter8793

So is Redline 0w40 BMW LL-01 a no go?

I'm certain there is SOME group of situations where Redline 0W-40 is the perfect oil. But for daily driving of an M5? In the United States? Maybe Death Valley. Otherwise, probably best to stick real close to manufacturers recommended weight.

Shawn

[micvite]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

I'm certain there is SOME group of situations where Redline 0W-40 is the perfect oil. But for daily driving of an M5? In the United States? Maybe Death Valley. Otherwise, probably best to stick real close to manufacturers recommended weight.

Shawn

Can we end the oil debate already? Only reason it's 0w-30 in the usa is for emissions, and epa rating most likely. Here's the usa vs German owners manual for a 2021 m5. Only difference is ll01 for usa because we have shitty gas vs ll04 or 12 for Germany because they don't have sulfur in their gas.
Also attached is the 2018 USA owners manual... im sure they totally changed the internals of the car without telling anyone.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by micvite

Can we end the oil debate already? Only reason it's 0w-30 in the usa is for emissions, and epa rating most likely. Here's the usa vs German owners manual for a 2021 m5. Only difference is ll01 for usa because we have shitty gas vs ll04 or 12 for Germany because they don't have sulfur in their gas.
Also attached is the 2018 USA owners manual... im sure they totally changed the internals of the car without telling anyone.

The manual posts you make only make it MORE debatable. Which one then? 0W-30, 5W-30, 5W-40? Which one from the manual?

LL-01, ACEA?

Given, there is a "close" to perfect oil for each engine, but only under different conditions. Death Valley? Mexico? Sure, 40 weight. But Virginia? More than 30 weight for this V8 may be too thick. Who knows? Not me now. But at least sticking close to the OEM recommendations is a pretty good bet. Thicker does not always equal better. Thinner does not always equal more wear and better emissions. It's just not that simple.

Shawn

[micvite]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

The manual posts you make only make it MORE debatable. Which one then? 0W-30, 5W-30, 5W-40? Which one from the manual?

LL-01, ACEA?

Given, there is a "close" to perfect oil for each engine, but only under different conditions. Death Valley? Mexico? Sure, 40 weight. But Virginia? More than 30 weight for this V8 may be too thick. Who knows? Not me now. But at least sticking close to the OEM recommendations is a pretty good bet. Thicker does not always equal better. Thinner does not always equal more wear and better emissions. It's just not that simple.

Shawn

You gotta use what's right for your climate, you definitely know this already cuz we talked on here quite a bit lol. Just saying 0w30 isn't the end all be all. Just look at it this way: germany with a lot less temperature variation has all these options, vs America that has both Alaska and texas/Florida has a bandaid solution. To a certain degree it depends on driving too, if you track it I'd say even go up to 50 considering you're blowing through the "normal operating temps". Honestly with how much variation there is in temps around VA for example I'd say running a 0w30 or 0 40 in winter, and run a 5 40 once temps warm up especially if you're going ham on the car (which is hard in VA last I remember lol). But I disagree thinner definitely equals less emissions and better gas mileage just because of the fact that there is less resistance. In theory assuming the car maintains its running temp perfectly in all conditions a 30 vs a 40 will have better gas mileage and emissions in the same operating conditions. Will it cause more wear? Maybe? Depends on tolerances and a whole lot of other things.

But considering I did my own oil change shortly after the break in change done at the dealership on my old car... and after warming it up the oil was basically water coming out of the engine I personally don't feel comfortable running anything that thin with my driving style.

[pbonsalb]

If you want the oil BMW chose for CAFE purposes, use the thin oil option in the FE grade that BMW lists among in the range of weights and specs that work fine for these motors.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by micvite

You gotta use what's right for your climate, you definitely know this already cuz we talked on here quite a bit lol. Just saying 0w30 isn't the end all be all. Just look at it this way: germany with a lot less temperature variation has all these options, vs America that has both Alaska and texas/Florida has a bandaid solution. To a certain degree it depends on driving too, if you track it I'd say even go up to 50 considering you're blowing through the "normal operating temps". Honestly with how much variation there is in temps around VA for example I'd say running a 0w30 or 0 40 in winter, and run a 5 40 once temps warm up especially if you're going ham on the car (which is hard in VA last I remember lol). But I disagree thinner definitely equals less emissions and better gas mileage just because of the fact that there is less resistance. In theory assuming the car maintains its running temp perfectly in all conditions a 30 vs a 40 will have better gas mileage and emissions in the same operating conditions. Will it cause more wear? Maybe? Depends on tolerances and a whole lot of other things.

But considering I did my own oil change shortly after the break in change done at the dealership on my old car... and after warming it up the oil was basically water coming out of the engine I personally don't feel comfortable running anything that thin with my driving style.

You're WAYYYY overthinking that first part. Alaska vs. Florida, yeah, there's definitely some validity to that. But there's a breakpoint on the lower vs. higher viscosity somewhere. But that's okay, we can disagree. But there is a weight below which emissions and fuel mileage will go UP because of wear. I don't know where that is. Don't wanna find out either.

And on the temperature when I track? Never EVER goes above 250. Never ever. My old GT-R, sure. Cooling for that car was inadequate. BMW has gotten it right. I've never been able to get any of the temps over normal driving around temps. Some people have. No idea why, other than I don't drive in July much anymore. One of my crew (traveling buddies who meet up at various tracks) nearly died at a NASA event at VIR in his GT3 with no air conditioning. We just don't do July much anywhere (northern tracks we still do, but Summit Point in August last year was nearly unbearable)

And on the last part, there's NO WAY you can tell a hot 30 weight vs. a hot 40 weight by the way it runs out of the drain plug. Unless you're sitting there with a stopwatch and you measure it. The Mach-1 eyeball ain't that good. It just isn't. At zero deg F, maybe. But not hot, not even at zero deg F outside temp. If we're just gonna eyeball it, then all the science goes right out the window.

Shawn

[micvite]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

You're WAYYYY overthinking that first part. Alaska vs. Florida, yeah, there's definitely some validity to that. But there's a breakpoint on the lower vs. higher viscosity somewhere. But that's okay, we can disagree. But there is a weight below which emissions and fuel mileage will go UP because of wear. I don't know where that is. Don't wanna find out either.

And on the temperature when I track? Never EVER goes above 250. Never ever. My old GT-R, sure. Cooling for that car was inadequate. BMW has gotten it right. I've never been able to get any of the temps over normal driving around temps. Some people have. No idea why, other than I don't drive in July much anymore. One of my crew (traveling buddies who meet up at various tracks) nearly died at a NASA event at VIR in his GT3 with no air conditioning. We just don't do July much anywhere (northern tracks we still do, but Summit Point in August last year was nearly unbearable)

And on the last part, there's NO WAY you can tell a hot 30 weight vs. a hot 40 weight by the way it runs out of the drain plug. Unless you're sitting there with a stopwatch and you measure it. The Mach-1 eyeball ain't that good. It just isn't. At zero deg F, maybe. But not hot, not even at zero deg F outside temp. If we're just gonna eyeball it, then all the science goes right out the window.

Shawn

At the performance center in 70 degree weather I was able to put the m5s into limp mode due to overheating, had both coolant and oil almost in the red, redline came down to 4k rpm so it's definitely possible.

To a certain degree you're right about the science simply because I can't guarantee it was even the same exact temp, or even close for that matter or even if it was I can't guarantee I didn't do something a bit different, but just feeling the hot oil on my hand and seeing the way it drips off you can definitely tell there's a difference.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by micvite

At the performance center in 70 degree weather I was able to put the m5s into limp mode due to overheating, had both coolant and oil almost in the red, redline came down to 4k rpm so it's definitely possible.

To a certain degree you're right about the science simply because I can't guarantee it was even the same exact temp, or even close for that matter or even if it was I can't guarantee I didn't do something a bit different, but just feeling the hot oil on my hand and seeing the way it drips off you can definitely tell there's a difference.

I certainly can't say it's not possible. I could drive the car rough to try to do it on purpose, but that would go against the last 22 years of training I've done to do that. "smooth = fast". I won't replicate any efforts to do that. Just driving on track would do it on my GT-R. But it only held five quarts, and the cooling was inadequate.

The only way to tell for sure is to check multiple oil analyses over multiple changes. Been there, done that, on a car with absolutely shitty cooling.

After THOUSANDS of dollars of testing (nope, not kidding), the only thing I was able to prove was this oil:
https://renewablelube.com/products/b...shp-0w20-pcmo#

Was A LITTLE better than Mobil-1 0W-40 for a tracked GT-R. But just "a little". After all that, I came to the conclusion that "OEM is nearly as good as any boutique high cost oil that you can come up with on a car that is properly designed".

Shawn

[micvite]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

I certainly can't say it's not possible. I could drive the car rough to try to do it on purpose, but that would go against the last 22 years of training I've done to do that. "smooth = fast". I won't replicate any efforts to do that. Just driving on track would do it on my GT-R. But it only held five quarts, and the cooling was inadequate.

The only way to tell for sure is to check multiple oil analyses over multiple changes. Been there, done that, on a car with absolutely shitty cooling.

After THOUSANDS of dollars of testing (nope, not kidding), the only thing I was able to prove was this oil:
https://renewablelube.com/products/b...shp-0w20-pcmo#

Was A LITTLE better than Mobil-1 0W-40 for a tracked GT-R. But just "a little". After all that, I came to the conclusion that "OEM is nearly as good as any boutique high cost oil that you can come up with on a car that is properly designed".

Shawn

Agree, to a certain extent oil is oil. And there's no way to really test things because again, who's you say you drove exactly the same way, the same amount of time, same temps etc. It's why there's this huge debate in the first place, no way to quantify accurate results.

In terms of the m5, I'd say it was a cooling issue in the end, most likely due to possible bent fins in the rad(lots of rocks get kicked up on that track), and also the kind of track, no huge straightaway to really cool things off, lots of short spurts in short succession.

[SatinblkF90]

Originally Posted by micvite

Can we end the oil debate already? Only reason it's 0w-30 in the usa is for emissions, and epa rating most likely. Here's the usa vs German owners manual for a 2021 m5. Only difference is ll01 for usa because we have shitty gas vs ll04 or 12 for Germany because they don't have sulfur in their gas.
Also attached is the 2018 USA owners manual... im sure they totally changed the internals of the car without telling anyone.

What has lead you to believe the facelift f90s from 21+ have changed internals from pre lci 18 f90s?

[micvite]

Originally Posted by SatinblkF90

What has lead you to believe the facelift f90s from 21+ have changed internals from pre lci 18 f90s?

The sarcasm was not apparent enough. I'm just saying 0w-30 was an emissions decision on the lci and that the same engine had options back in 2018.

[AHall]

Originally Posted by SatinblkF90

What has lead you to believe the facelift f90s from 21+ have changed internals from pre lci 18 f90s?

There were some changes to the LCI engine. One that comes to mind is a coating of some sort was added to the cylinder walls.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by micvite

Agree, to a certain extent oil is oil. And there's no way to really test things because again, who's you say you drove exactly the same way, the same amount of time, same temps etc. It's why there's this huge debate in the first place, no way to quantify accurate results.

In terms of the m5, I'd say it was a cooling issue in the end, most likely due to possible bent fins in the rad(lots of rocks get kicked up on that track), and also the kind of track, no huge straightaway to really cool things off, lots of short spurts in short succession.

I just made this point in another thread, though, for weights, we're discussing very close oils.

A 0W-30 kinematic viscosity at operating temperature is 12.18 mm2/sec.

A 5W-40 kinematic viscosity at operating temperature is 12.8 mm2/sec.

These are very small differences.

Shawn

[SatinblkF90]

Originally Posted by micvite

The sarcasm was not apparent enough. I'm just saying 0w-30 was an emissions decision on the lci and that the same engine had options back in 2018.

Funny you were being sarcastic but I actually did hear in fact that some changes really were made to the lci without noting it. The cylinder coating mentioned by the poster below is one to name a few, I just can’t remember if there was anything else (even physical changes wouldn’t surprise me). The zf8 for example was changed from zf75 to a stronger zf76 yet they never explicitly mentioned it.

[SatinblkF90]

Originally Posted by AHall

There were some changes to the LCI engine. One that comes to mind is a coating of some sort was added to the cylinder walls.

I guess for our pre LCI we can basically get that same upgrade by just using m0s2 additive at every oil change 🤣