06-10-2019, 09:28 PM | #23 | |
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Aside: it's funny how the whole point of this thread (i.e. my intent behind it; I'm more than happy for others to digress) wasn't referenced even once. In reality, I was saying that the little Model 3 Performance demonstrated the inadequacies of the ZF transmission--it's simply too slow to compete in anything but well-timed launch control or manual, perfectly-timed short-shifts. In D2 or D3, the car wrings everything it can out of each gear causing the ZF to convulse into the next gear losing perhaps 0.2 or 0.3s each shift. Neither my M-DCTs nor my E63S' dual wet-clutch automatic suffered this problem. Anyhoo, 1st-world problems... |
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06-10-2019, 11:28 PM | #24 | |
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Maybe the newer MB's are better - because my 14 E63S was horrific. That said - I don't see how as the new E63S is slower with more power - so the trans can't be helping it out. There is no comparison to the ZF. While I agree a DCT is quicker - the ZF is pretty quick and smooth - and everyday driving is so much more superior than the old F10 DCT. The ZF is used everywhere for a reason. |
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06-10-2019, 11:53 PM | #25 | |
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I didn't own any AMGs prior to a 2018 E63S so I'll bow to your experience there but you'll need to try the AMG Speedshift MCT 9-speed transmission--it's clearly not the same beast you describe and is as fast between 1st & 2nd and 2nd & 3rd as any transmission I've ever used including a PDK (try it before you get all Porsche fanboy on me ). Is the W213 E63S really slower than its predecessor? Do you mean in perf numbers or something else? Again, probably because I know so little about earlier models but, my E63S was anything but slow--and most certainly not something caused by its transmission. It wasn't perfect--it had moods as so many seem to--but WOT + late shift at redline was a joy. In everyday commuter driving, I agree that the ZF is superior. However, I'm steadily becoming more and more irritated by its behaviors in manual mode--perhaps that's my problem. To your point on the ZF being used everywhere: to me, that isn't a fact that we should attribute to absolute customer satisfaction, it's more a testimony to its versatility and ruggedness. Those characteristics understandably make it attractive to manufacturers, not its ability to satisfy the gamut of performance-oriented cars it's being used in and the drivers who drive them. It is very good, no doubt, but I'd take my M6's DCT back in a heartbeat (assuming clutch slippage was addressed). |
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06-11-2019, 01:14 AM | #26 | |
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06-11-2019, 02:46 PM | #27 | ||
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06-11-2019, 08:20 PM | #28 |
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limeypride vtknight
I wont get into the overall E63S vs F90 battle cause Ive spoke to that many times but in regards to the MCT of AMG: I have owned 6 variants (still have the C63 BS) and I can clearly state that the W213 TCU makes it a much better paddle shifting car than its predecessors. I will agree with Jeremy that the older versions (I had a 2010, (3) 2012's, 2013, and the W213) that they were brutally slow in manual mode no matter what drive mode I was in (S, S+, etc). Benz really needed to and did fix the electronics in relation to the tranny as the hardware really didnt change except for the extra gears. Having had 5 ZF's now: Jag F Type, 2 RS7's, Bentley GT3R, and now this F90; the M5 is the best of the lot and in regular non premeditated driving I often do no realize that its not a DCT. The measurable shifting speeds are so negligible and the manual requests are very fast from driver input to true gear change. I have no doubt that pure DCT vs ZF race would yield a possible DCT win due to less parasitic loss from a roll but Ill never see that race personally. Oh Ive had 21 DCT's in my life, all have been progressively better with Porsche still arguably at the top of my list.
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06-12-2019, 01:55 PM | #29 |
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Forgot to mention, in last month's RT magazine, Koenigsegg himself drives a model 3 as a daily, he said it's the best contemporary "normal" daily driver.
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06-12-2019, 06:48 PM | #30 |
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06-28-2019, 04:36 PM | #31 |
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its insane... my friend owned one for 2 days before taking it back. He returned it as range is completely inaccurate. Goal was to get it to obtain sticker as he commutes to LA frequently but one his first trip to LA when he left Irvine he had 150 miles or range and drove on economy entire way. On the way back from LA he barely made it back to fountain valley and had to look for a charger.. I had a feeling this would be the case, until these EV's have capability of 600 range i'm not getting into one.
Now performance wise, 0-60 is literally stupid. I don't see how any vehicle can compete with this.. no launch control needed just step on it. It will destroy likely anything you can run into on the streets. I test drove his back from Irvine to Newport and i was quite impressed overall with the car.. of course all of the above was done in Ludicrous mode. I'm sure driving this thing with heavy foot you will not get more than 50 miles or range but for those who just need a grocery getter it will make it that much more enjoyable. Besides my overall EV range complaint, P100D was not impressive at 80mph+ in Ludicrous mode.. its most deadly 0-60.. if i had one id prolly kill myself, the shear rush is absolutely addicting.. me being a huge petrol head and needing to hear the engine and exhaust didn't bother me one bit, that's how impressive the acceleration is. |
06-29-2019, 10:22 AM | #32 | |
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On a sidenote, I'm not sure that everyone's F10 DCT acts the same, this is sort of my tinfoil hat moment, but I think how it's driven and how it adapts over time changes its operation. Mine in S3 shifts absolutely instant, nearly like the 7PDK does. I've only driven 1 other F10 M5 and that was a used 2013 back when I was considering my car and it definitely never felt as good and crisp as my car and how it shifts. There's a video that comes to mind from a couple years back and how the guys car sounds when it's shifted and its this one @ 10:50. It's instant and seamless. This is how my car is. |
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06-29-2019, 10:37 AM | #33 | |
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07-08-2019, 02:45 AM | #34 |
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I only have a couple of weeks in my F90, but I do share limey's sentiments about the gearbox.
My boss recently got a P100D and he loves it. He still drives his 991.2 TTS on longer commutes, but for city driving he definitely prefers the Tesla. I'm having my break-in service done today and we'll soon schedule some runs of the F90 vs Tesla vs 991.2. Hopefully we can film some of it too. Hopefully I can have a JB4 installed before that, so I have a chance
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07-08-2019, 01:30 PM | #35 |
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There are TT street GTRs , Lambos, and 911s that will take down any prod Tesla....
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07-08-2019, 01:50 PM | #36 |
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that's why i used the word "likely".. the vehicles you mentioned are modified up the a*# and while you can still run into them on the street they make up a negligible percentage. P100D will smoke majority of the cars it runs into on a daily basis (stoplight to stoplight). Not to mention if anything goes wrong with launch process of any of the above mentioned vehicles they will still get smoked by an unmodified "production" EV.
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07-08-2019, 02:30 PM | #37 | |
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07-08-2019, 06:24 PM | #38 | |
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Last edited by TTHURACAN; 07-08-2019 at 06:37 PM.. |
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07-08-2019, 06:33 PM | #39 | |
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The ones heavily modified run 60 in less than 2s, so no comparison. Just because many owners have issues executing LC on the F10 and F90 M5 does not mean the 911TT and GTR have the same issues, quite to the contrary. |
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07-08-2019, 06:51 PM | #40 | ||
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I'm not sure why you're arguing here, statistically, the Tesla will stomp >95% (yup, I pulled that number out of my...) in light-to-light jumps... assuming it's not too cold... or too warm... or too tired juice-wise. |
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07-08-2019, 06:54 PM | #41 |
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I would expect it to as it is probably more expensive than 97%+ of the cars out there
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07-08-2019, 07:36 PM | #42 | |
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07-09-2019, 01:09 PM | #43 |
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I've now crossed shopped Tesla twice against BMW, and BMW has won both times for me. Reasons:
1. I just couldn't square paying $130k+ for a Tesla with the interior fit and finish of a $40k base 3 series/Audi. Everything on the inside of the Tesla except for the central screen and instrument panel just looked and felt cheap. 2. Range Anxiety. I spend most weekends in the winter driving into the mountains for both resort and backcountry skiing. The main place where I ski requires a 90 mile drive with ~4800 feet of elevation gain, followed by the car sitting in a sub 32 degree parking lot for ~10-12 hours off a charger. Every time i've spoken with someone from Tesla on this use case, they couldn't confidently tell me I could make the round trip without having to charge up. The last thing I want to do on the way to or from the mountain is spend extra travel time charging the car. That said, we are considering a Model Y for my wife as she wants a small SUV thats easy to operate, and good around town. Since she only drives ~5500 miles a year, 99% of her round trips are under 60 miles, and she has free EV charging at her work, it would make more sense than getting her an upgrade to her Volvo XC60.
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07-11-2019, 12:52 AM | #44 | |
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How are you bro?
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