Flash tunes vs Jb4 in respect to 1/4 mile

josec70 · 06-13-2019, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by limeypride

Quote:

Originally Posted by josec70

100%; BMW NA will always shift the burden of proof to the owner even if what caused the abnormality (in this case increased boost levels) is not clear.

I'll say this ... 2 F10 M5's ... both with piggies and zero issues.

5 "tuned" F10 M5 owners (personally known to me) .... 5 blown engines.

All good data... thanks for the insights, folks.

To add to your list: 3 x F10 M5s, 2 x F06 M6 GCs, 1 x X5M and my new girl. No issues.

You seem very nice an' all but given what happens to people's engines when they get to know you, let's consider this our last interaction.

If you're not tuned, we can be friends LOL!

limeypride · 06-13-2019, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josec70

If you're not tuned, we can be friends LOL!

STOP TALKING TO ME!

Hahaha, obviously I'm kidding... made me giggle.

Vic55 · 06-14-2019, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by limeypride

STOP TALKING TO ME!

Hahaha, obviously I'm kidding... made me giggle.

hahahahahha

too late, the curse of Jose is upon you.

josec70 · 06-14-2019, 01:47 PM

hahahah

Who's on first · 06-14-2019, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jc16

Quote:

Originally Posted by FSociety

Or just wait till its supported on Bootmod3/BM3

can Bm3 be traced? or is similar to piggy back?

This is funny.

EVERYTHING CAN BE TRACED.

FSociety · 06-17-2019, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Who's on first

This is funny.

EVERYTHING CAN BE TRACED.

Including piggybacks yep

limeypride · 06-17-2019, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FSociety

Including piggybacks yep

// I fear I'm sounding like a broken record but...

Agreed, there's a difference, though. ECU flashes leave cryptographically-provable breadcrumbs that measure changes and change sequence in a chain of events that are nigh on tamperproof. Piggys leave tell-tell signs that the car behaved differently--the cause of those irregularities can be nothing but inferred.

That said, when BMW finally decides to block even the use of piggys, it's over... and it blows my mind that they haven't done so already.

Fuel-It! · 06-17-2019, 07:41 PM

Flash tunes are easily detected even if flashed to stock later while piggybacks when done properly are almost impossible to detect.

I think manufacturers could come up with ways to block them but since piggybacks are so much more reliable than flash maps, usually just changing where the tuning is operating from different parts of the factory mapping, and not making extreme changes like can be done with flash tuning, I don't think they mind them as much. The more aggressive protections go in to stopping flash tuning from what I've seen.

Who's on first · 06-17-2019, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuel-It!

Flash tunes are easily detected even if flashed to stock later while piggybacks when done properly are almost impossible to detect.

I think manufacturers could come up with ways to block them but since piggybacks are so much more reliable than flash maps, usually just changing where the tuning is operating from different parts of the factory mapping, and not making extreme changes like can be done with flash tuning, I don't think they mind them as much. The more aggressive protections go in to stopping flash tuning from what I've seen.

When piggybacks are done properly they are not almost impossible to detect. End of story.

Please stop spreading misinformation that could put people in a bad situation.

I get a kick out of people who think they are smarter than the engineers and programmers that actually built and wrote all the codes and hardware.

Unless you think you can write software or build hardware that can speed up the speed of light you've got another thing coming. (Judas Priest).

The tools are out there and accessible for them to find out how long it takes (I'm sure they already know) a signal to go from One of the cars computers to the other.

When that signal takes longer than it should, as if there were a piggyback involved then there's your proof.

Is that the easiest way absolutely not but that is an unbeatable way.

limeypride · 06-17-2019, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Who's on first

When piggybacks are done properly they are not almost impossible to detect. End of story.

I agree... but, as I've said repeatedly, there's detection with iron-clad evidence and then there's inference. Since you're providing an opposing opinion, could you explain how they do so?

By the way, I'm not arguing that it's not possible--as I've mentioned before, it most certainly is. I'm familiar with what *can* be done as that's core to my work life but I have no insight into whether BMW are doing so or, if they are, how they're doing it.

Quote:

I get a kick out of people who think they are smarter than the engineers and programmers that actually built and wrote all the codes and hardware.

But aren't you making virtually the same claim? The claim that you know better than the other posters do, albeit on the opposite side of the fence? That at least deserves a 'how' or 'why' you know better.

Quote:

Unless you think you can write software or build hardware that can speed up the speed of light you've got another thing coming. (Judas Priest).

The tools are out there and accessible for them to find out how long it takes (I'm sure they already know) a signal to go from One of the cars computers to the other.

I can say with reasonable certainty that this approach isn't likely to yield anything useful--too many factors influence roundtrip times. I would not design a security solution on anything so unpredictable... even as a single input among many, it's too random.

Quote:

When that signal takes longer than it should, as if there were a piggyback involved then there's your proof.

That's not proof--that's pure inference... which might well be enough for BMW to make a decision but I hope it's not enough for decisions made beyond BMW's control. So I guess it comes down to where the bucks stops or how far a customer is prepared to push things... justifiably or otherwise.

Quote:

Is that the easiest way absolutely not but that is an unbeatable way.

And now you've asserted the same 'absolute' position as those whose opinion you refute & label as uninformed and yet you've claimed that same absolute without providing any data to back it.

PS: I just noticed your location...hehe; me, too

Fuel-It! · 06-17-2019, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Who's on first

When that signal takes longer than it should, as if there were a piggyback involved then there's your proof.

Is that the easiest way absolutely not but that is an unbeatable way.

lol I'm a few decades out of college but last I checked electricity travels at the speed of light already. And nothing can go faster than the speed of light.

The way they tell you have a piggyback is if you leave it installed, admit to running it, or if they search your social media posts or subpoena your credit card statements.

f90_FTW · 06-18-2019, 12:51 AM

Y'all completely hijacked my post. Made it all about piggybacks and whether or not they're detectable.

This post was supposed to be about piggybacks versus ECU tunes and which does better in a quarter mile.

I have no idea what the hell you guys are talking about

Who's on first · 06-18-2019, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuel-It!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Who's on first

When that signal takes longer than it should, as if there were a piggyback involved then there's your proof.

Is that the easiest way absolutely not but that is an unbeatable way.

lol I'm a few decades out of college but last I checked electricity travels at the speed of light already. And nothing can go faster than the speed of light.

The way they tell you have a piggyback is if you leave it installed, admit to running it, or if they search your social media posts or subpoena your credit card statements.

Um.... yea. Your first paragraph was my EXACT point.

gtenedio · 06-18-2019, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f90_FTW

Y'all completely hijacked my post. Made it all about piggybacks and whether or not they're detectable.

This post was supposed to be about piggybacks versus ECU tunes and which does better in a quarter mile.

I have no idea what the hell you guys are talking about

SMH

gtenedio · 06-18-2019, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f90_FTW

Y'all completely hijacked my post. Made it all about piggybacks and whether or not they're detectable.

This post was supposed to be about piggybacks versus ECU tunes and which does better in a quarter mile.

I have no idea what the hell you guys are talking about

soooooo I think based on adjustability with fuel, the best bang will be with JB4, and DME it sounds like(referring to US market)- but results are few and far between on the f90 board so far.
FSociety do you know when (if ever) the BM3 being released for this platform?

MWcoupe · 06-18-2019, 11:48 AM

RKtunes just posted a video yesterday on their tune. Looks great

f90_FTW · 06-18-2019, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MWcoupe

RKtunes just posted a video yesterday on their tune. Looks great

Watched that whole 30 minute long video of this guy blabing about what they did to the car. Blabbing about baseline dynos, and horsepower gains. And then a video at a track without sharing results.

I've seen almost identical videos from a couple other tuners.

Now I'm about to get on my soapbox...

TUNERS: everybody's Dyno is different. It can be calibrated different it's possible the Dyno isn't reading the car correctly. And lastly i'm not saying you guys are doing this but you can CHEAT a baseline and cheat results very easily.

Basically what I'm saying is these videos of dyno results are cool and all but after you've done all that nonsense... CAN YOU ACTUALLY TRACK THE CAR AND GIVE US THOSE RESULTS. that's what I want to see. I want qt mile times. I want trap speeds. I want 100-200khm.

Jesus. Come on people

That video could've been 15 minutes shorter. Tell me mods show me your awesome Qt mile time (that's better than the rest) and tell me a phone number where I can buy.

limeypride · 06-18-2019, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f90_FTW

Watched that whole 30 minute long video of this guy blabing about what they did to the car. Blabbing about baseline dynos, and horsepower gains. And then a video at a track without sharing results.

I've seen almost identical videos from a couple other tuners.

Now I'm about to get on my soapbox...

TUNERS: everybody's Dyno is different. It can be calibrated different it's possible the Dyno isn't reading the car correctly. And lastly i'm not saying you guys are doing this but you can CHEAT a baseline and cheat results very easily.

Basically what I'm saying is these videos of dyno results are cool and all but after you've done all that nonsense... CAN YOU ACTUALLY TRACK THE CAR AND GIVE US THOSE RESULTS. that's what I want to see. I want qt mile times. I want trap speeds. I want 100-200khm.

Jesus. Come on people

That video could've been 15 minutes shorter. Tell me mods show me your awesome Qt mile time (that's better than the rest) and tell me a phone number where I can buy.

Your attitude sucks. Yeah, that's all I can be arsed to say... oh, other than, "I am guilty of poisoning your thread. Apologies for that."

// EDIT: ummm, I'm wondering if I misread your intent--are you angry at the tuners for not posting data or fellow subscribers?

gtenedio · 06-18-2019, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by limeypride

Your attitude sucks. Yeah, that's all I can be arsed to say... oh, other than, "I am guilty of poisoning your thread. Apologies for that."

// EDIT: ummm, I'm wondering if I misread your intent--are you angry at the tuners for not posting data or fellow subscribers?

Solid67 · 06-18-2019, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by limeypride

Your attitude sucks. Yeah, that's all I can be arsed to say... oh, other than, "I am guilty of poisoning your thread. Apologies for that."

// EDIT: ummm, I'm wondering if I misread your intent--are you angry at the tuners for not posting data or fellow subscribers?

He's upset about two things. One is the fact that the thread turned from piggybacks vs ECU flashes to whether a piggyback can be detected or not by BMW. Second, he is angry that tuners are dynoing cars and show the dynos and all the other stuff, but do not share any performance metrics (0-60, 1/4, trap speed, 60-130).

limeypride · 06-18-2019, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtenedio

I did... repeatedly. Do you not see the extensive commentary I made on entirely the wrong topic. Sheesh...

f90_FTW · 06-18-2019, 12:36 PM

I can't believe that 90% of tuners release their tune to the public for sale without anything more than some dyno graph they whipped up.

It's really lazy, and the cheap way out. And I suspect they aren't releasing them because honestly they probably aren't anything that special. (Different than anyone else)

dyno Numbers are great to see don't get me wrong, But the performance of a car is based on a lot more than peak horsepower and peak torque.

The only two people that I've seen release actual numbers funny enough are both piggyback tunes

Racechip released an official 100-200khm (it's a start but I would have liked to see more metrics )
And Burger tuning (Jb4) release an official 10.2 Qt mile time. With trap speed (better)

Not a single flash tune company (that I know of anyway)
Has released anything more than dyno sheet graphs. And a couple went as far as to do 100-200khm but not many of them.

06-14-2019, 01:47 PM	#26
josec70 Major General 4074 Rep 5,233 Posts Drives: 22' Individual Chalk M5C Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Miami iTrader: (2)	hahahah __________________ CURRENT: 22' INDIVIDUAL M5\| CHALK \| TARTUFO \| CCB \| MPE \| H&R \| IND GONE: 19' M5C\| SINGAPORE GREY\| ARAGON\|VELOS VLS-06\|H&R\|iPE\|IND\|XPEL\|CF\|RADENSO GONE: 15' F10 M5\|BSM\|BLACK\|VELOS VSS-S2\|KW\|AKRA\|IND\|CF \|ESCORT 360\|VELOS PIGGY GONE: 13' F10 M5\|SG\|BLACK\|AKRA\|KW\|IND LONG GONE: 09' E60 M5\|02' E39 M5
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06-17-2019, 07:41 PM	#30
Fuel-It! Banned 550 Rep 949 Posts Drives: M4, M5, M2C, X4M, 440i, etc... Join Date: Mar 2019 Location: Phoenix AZ iTrader: (0)	Flash tunes are easily detected even if flashed to stock later while piggybacks when done properly are almost impossible to detect. I think manufacturers could come up with ways to block them but since piggybacks are so much more reliable than flash maps, usually just changing where the tuning is operating from different parts of the factory mapping, and not making extreme changes like can be done with flash tuning, I don't think they mind them as much. The more aggressive protections go in to stopping flash tuning from what I've seen.
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06-18-2019, 12:51 AM	#34
f90_FTW Private First Class 157 Rep 162 Posts Drives: F90 M5 Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Los Angeles, CA iTrader: (0)	Y'all completely hijacked my post. Made it all about piggybacks and whether or not they're detectable. This post was supposed to be about piggybacks versus ECU tunes and which does better in a quarter mile. I have no idea what the hell you guys are talking about
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06-18-2019, 11:48 AM	#38
MWcoupe 24k GOLD 148 Rep 1,453 Posts Drives: Mineral White M4 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: BROOKLYN NY iTrader: (0)	RKtunes just posted a video yesterday on their tune. Looks great
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06-18-2019, 12:36 PM	#44
f90_FTW Private First Class 157 Rep 162 Posts Drives: F90 M5 Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Los Angeles, CA iTrader: (0)	I can't believe that 90% of tuners release their tune to the public for sale without anything more than some dyno graph they whipped up. It's really lazy, and the cheap way out. And I suspect they aren't releasing them because honestly they probably aren't anything that special. (Different than anyone else) dyno Numbers are great to see don't get me wrong, But the performance of a car is based on a lot more than peak horsepower and peak torque. The only two people that I've seen release actual numbers funny enough are both piggyback tunes Racechip released an official 100-200khm (it's a start but I would have liked to see more metrics ) And Burger tuning (Jb4) release an official 10.2 Qt mile time. With trap speed (better) Not a single flash tune company (that I know of anyway) Has released anything more than dyno sheet graphs. And a couple went as far as to do 100-200khm but not many of them.
	Appreciate 0 Quote