[limeypride]

Originally Posted by Fuel-It!

CANbus is the real difference maker. I'm not sure a tune not attached to CANbus can stay 100% invisible unless it runs a lot less power like BMS Stage1 is set to.

Did you mean to respond to my post there? I ask only because we were talking about piggys triggering CELs, not detectability.

Wrt/ your comment on detectability: I've not thought about this aspect before. Can you elaborate a bit, please.

[Fuel-It!]

Originally Posted by limeypride

Did you mean to respond to my post there? I ask only because we were talking about piggys triggering CELs, not detectability.

Wrt/ your comment on detectability: I've not thought about this aspect before. Can you elaborate a bit, please.

I'm not sure how much they would want me to share but there are certain limiters in the ECU you need to keep the tuning under and you can only do that by reading what the limiter and the current value is via CANbus.

As for codes you only get those if something is wrong and if something is wrong (software or hardware) you fix it to eliminate the code.

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by Fuel-It!

I'm not sure how much they would want me to share but there are certain limiters in the ECU you need to keep the tuning under and you can only do that by reading what the limiter and the current value is via CANbus.

This affects piggys?

As for codes you only get those if something is wrong and if something is wrong (software or hardware) you fix it to eliminate the code.

I'm not suggesting otherwise. However, I think your statement is too 'blanket'--codes can be triggered across a wide spectrum of categories from say unusual ambient temps (128F in Nevada jumps to mind) to questionable sensors making the car think (because it launched so hard) it was in an accident. There are very few beings that can fix the former and the latter goes away by itself--both triggered CELs on my 2020 M5. Short of addressing global warming or the $hite sensor setup on the F90 that triggers the misleading 'accident' error, nothing needs fixing.

All of that said, I completely agree with the general sentiment and CELs should not simply be ignored/cleared.

[r33_RGSport]

Originally Posted by Fuel-It!

I'm not sure how much they would want me to share but there are certain limiters in the ECU you need to keep the tuning under and you can only do that by reading what the limiter and the current value is via CANbus.

As for codes you only get those if something is wrong and if something is wrong (software or hardware) you fix it to eliminate the code.

Please enlighten me how do you obtain a limiter via CAN Bus without sending query to ECU?

Maybe there is something that I may be missing here.

Feel free to spill it out. We are in the forum and internet, where information are shared. Whether they are good or bad.
At some point someone will twist it anyway.

[Fuel-It!]

Not really my information to share but you should be able to do the math from what I'd disclosed already!

[mrgicm]

Going with Racechip just for the purpuse that "its invisible" and "the dealer will not see it" is awfully wrong. If you have warranty claim that affects the engine or dme in any way , if Germany wants to know they can know, just as 100% as any other proper tune.

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by mrgicm

Going with Racechip just for the purpuse that "its invisible" and "the dealer will not see it" is awfully wrong. If you have warranty claim that affects the engine or dme in any way , if Germany wants to know they can know, just as 100% as any other proper tune.

Hmmm, that's a strong and very black and white statement—I understand things to be far more nuanced.

I'm not suggesting it can't be detected but I'd like to understand your version of the details that make you so sure.

For me, I happen to agree... to a point: if they want to know, they can. But as I alluded to above, details are important and educate us all, opinions are just that. Would you elaborate, please.

[mrgicm]

Originally Posted by limeypride

Hmmm, that's a strong and very black and white statement—I understand things to be far more nuanced.

I'm not suggesting it can't be detected but I'd like to understand your version of the details that make you so sure.

For me, I happen to agree... to a point: if they want to know, they can. But as I alluded to above, details are important and educate us all, opinions are just that. Would you elaborate, please.

If a car is tuned by a tuner that is not familiar with all the ecu's saftey triggers that after flash tuning you get a tamper code DME in your car which is the first obvius sign your car has been tuned. Other step is the ECU flash counter which counts how many times your ecu has been flashed. Thoose are the first and obvius "in your face" things every dealer can see let alone BMW Germany.

With a piggy back flashes are not there but since ECUs have a detailed logs if lets say your engine blew up or you had missfires, it keeps track of all the elements at that time stamp such as boost,rpm,speed etc, bmw by first look sees the boost and other properties needed to obtain more power are out of their spec and thus it is pretty obvius the car had a tune (piggyback).

My opinion is you should allways ask what is best for the engine and nlt what is best for the dealer, if you drcide to tune just accept there is a chance to loose your warranty and get a proper flash tune.

Neverthe less I had one F90 show dme tamper code after dealer flashed it on break in service, had to go back to flash it again and it was all good.

[A Need For Speed]

Obviously the dealer can look at the log and tell that stock boost limits have been exceeded, etc, but can they prove you had a piggy if its not there? They can only infer it indirectly. Tricky at best but you can bet that for $60K motor, I would hire a bulldog attorney to make my case. If you have an ECU tune, game over, they don't have to infer, they have direct evidence. May be incorrect but that is why I would go with a piggy. Cheaper than a tune, performs about as well, and, god forbid, I can use the savings for a legal retainer.

Originally Posted by mrgicm

If a car is tuned by a tuner that is not familiar with all the ecu's saftey triggers that after flash tuning you get a tamper code DME in your car which is the first obvius sign your car has been tuned. Other step is the ECU flash counter which counts how many times your ecu has been flashed. Thoose are the first and obvius "in your face" things every dealer can see let alone BMW Germany.

With a piggy back flashes are not there but since ECUs have a detailed logs if lets say your engine blew up or you had missfires, it keeps track of all the elements at that time stamp such as boost,rpm,speed etc, bmw by first look sees the boost and other properties needed to obtain more power are out of their spec and thus it is pretty obvius the car had a tune (piggyback).

My opinion is you should allways ask what is best for the engine and nlt what is best for the dealer, if you drcide to tune just accept there is a chance to loose your warranty and get a proper flash tune.

Neverthe less I had one F90 show dme tamper code after dealer flashed it on break in service, had to go back to flash it again and it was all good.

[gpdriver17]

Do the list how many psi each map is pushing?

[brava09]

Originally Posted by A Need For Speed

Obviously the dealer can look at the log and tell that stock boost limits have been exceeded, etc, but can they prove you had a piggy if its not there? They can only infer it indirectly. Tricky at best but you can bet that for $60K motor, I would hire a bulldog attorney to make my case. If you have an ECU tune, game over, they don't have to infer, they have direct evidence. May be incorrect but that is why I would go with a piggy. Cheaper than a tune, performs about as well, and, god forbid, I can use the savings for a legal retainer.

How would the ECU log the real boost, when the very essence of a piggyback is to trick the ECU into thinking the boost is low?

[subzero05]

Originally Posted by A Need For Speed

Obviously the dealer can look at the log and tell that stock boost limits have been exceeded, etc, but can they prove you had a piggy if its not there? They can only infer it indirectly. Tricky at best but you can bet that for $60K motor, I would hire a bulldog attorney to make my case. If you have an ECU tune, game over, they don't have to infer, they have direct evidence. May be incorrect but that is why I would go with a piggy. Cheaper than a tune, performs about as well, and, god forbid, I can use the savings for a legal retainer.

+1 I agree completely. Piggy is the best option if you have a warranty, leased vehicle etc and want the option of tuning with the least risk.. period.

[TrevorM3]

piggy+good SA+Tech willing to work on it= you've got a chance.

Flash tune=dead in the water.

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by TrevorM3

piggy+good SA+Tech willing to work on it= you've got a chance.

Flash tune=dead in the water.

This really is the basic recipe. But keep things conservative if you want to ride the safe train while gaining a few smile-inducing ponies. That equates to RaceChip lower-end or Burger JB/JB4-map1.

[shoei]

Originally Posted by limeypride

This really is the basic recipe. But keep things conservative if you want to ride the safe train while gaining a few smile-inducing ponies. That equates to RaceChip lower-end or Burger JB/JB4-map1.

Don't forget Noelle...

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by shoei

Don't forget Noelle...

Funnily enough, I already had.

[shoei]

Originally Posted by limeypride

Funnily enough, I already had.

Lmfao !!!

[mrgicm]

Originally Posted by subzero05

+1 I agree completely. Piggy is the best option if you have a warranty, leased vehicle etc and want the option of tuning with the least risk.. period.

You couldnt be more wrong. If you unferstood how truly a tune and a bmw work you wouldnt have that opinion. Other question is do you want what is best for your car or what you juat thing the dealer wont see?? Any normal person should just want what is best for the car, keeping in mind all aspects and parameters that need to be changed in order for the car to ran healthy.

[A Need For Speed]

Your opinion is simply that. He is not wrong, IMO. You seem very sure that a tune is best for all because you did it. As I said in preceding post, if things go south with the motor, which they shouldn't if you are using Map 1 or 2 on a piggy, but if they did, I would rather have the dealership and Corporate have to try to prove a mod (piggy) than find one (ECU tune). If one can get close to a tune in performance with a piggy that can be removed, why risk a tune, which without question ends your warranty on a $60K motor. To me, that is not the best course of action. I agree they would see the log on boost psi, rpm, etc and infer the piggy was there but can they prove a negative? In that god forbid situation, when they talk to my attorney, my bet is they back down and cover the repair for their customer that buys one of their most expensive cars. Maybe yes, maybe no but I like my odds over yours. What I can flat out guarantee is that when they discover your ECU tune, you will not have any grounds to fight termination of warranty, whatsoever. But mod it like you want, its all good. And btw, you are not wrong either. Cheers.

Originally Posted by mrgicm

You couldnt be more wrong. If you unferstood how truly a tune and a bmw work you wouldnt have that opinion. Other question is do you want what is best for your car or what you juat thing the dealer wont see?? Any normal person should just want what is best for the car, keeping in mind all aspects and parameters that need to be changed in order for the car to ran healthy.

[subzero05]

Originally Posted by mrgicm

You couldnt be more wrong. If you unferstood how truly a tune and a bmw work you wouldnt have that opinion. Other question is do you want what is best for your car or what you juat thing the dealer wont see?? Any normal person should just want what is best for the car, keeping in mind all aspects and parameters that need to be changed in order for the car to ran healthy.

well, maybe but I can state first had I have been to (3) different dealers on different occasions and removed my box on each occasion. Twice I had diagnostic work done (1 was a software update) and the other was just a regular service and not once did I encounter an issue, not even a mention. So I take that as validation regardless of weather you think I'm wrong or not.

[onfireX5]

Originally Posted by subzero05

well, maybe but I can state first had I have been to (3) different dealers on different occasions and removed my box on each occasion. Twice I had diagnostic work done (1 was a software update) and the other was just a regular service and not once did I encounter an issue, not even a mention. So I take that as validation regardless of weather you think I'm wrong or not.

You are not wrong. I’ve used 3 different RaceChip boxes. Over 40,000 miles. Never a problem.

Actually messed up one time and left it on for a warranty oil change/ DME updat. Zero issues, but remember to use the bypass plug !!

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by subzero05

well, maybe but I can state first had I have been to (3) different dealers on different occasions and removed my box on each occasion. Twice I had diagnostic work done (1 was a software update) and the other was just a regular service and not once did I encounter an issue, not even a mention. So I take that as validation regardless of weather you think I'm wrong or not.

You're not wrong. Just another troll.

I've had piggies on 8 cars I think—no issues.