[MFNATIK]

It actually pulls more styling cues from the X6M than the F80 M3 IMO. Its just been slimmed down a bit but the design cues are very similar.

[Marlonisonfire]

Does anyone know if the cad file has a compition package add on or nah?

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by Marlonisonfire

Does anyone know if the cad file has a compition package add on or nah?

Only one view contains an area that would indicate CP. It's only a finish color change which ont be shown.

There are some items that confirm speculation on some new and advanced equipment but anyone who knows what they are specifically won't be commenting with detail.

[ron_jeremy]

Originally Posted by Dexterspeed

HOLLY JEBUS. 700 HP of 355 rears smoking power.

I'm hearing all 4 tires will produce smoke...
But that it (X-drive) will be able to be turned off, so you have the "standard" RWD.
The render looks great, and since the G30 looks like an evolution to the F10, so will the M5.
That's not an bad thing, the G30 looks superb live!

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by ron_jeremy

I'm hearing all 4 tires will produce smoke...
But that it (X-drive) will be able to be turned off, so you have the "standard" RWD.
The render looks great, and since the G30 looks like an evolution to the F10, so will the M5.
That's not an bad thing, the G30 looks superb live!

It appears that it would be a very lightweight system that only operates when maximum acceleration, corner track-out for enhanced exit speed, and a winter traction aid are needed. Visually in my head, something akin to the rear M Electronic Diff connected along the side of the engine with a very specific point and method of connection. It would be DCT based as well.

It's an AWD simply because it does turn all 4 sometimes but won't carry a thing like X Drive as a label. The RWD version (if both do come) looks to have a lowered engine torque figure.

[AlexLou1222]

Looks spot on, just need M Mirrors and carbon roof

[brad850csi]

Originally Posted by lemetier

It appears that it would be a very lightweight system that only operates when maximum acceleration, corner track-out for enhanced exit speed, and a winter traction aid are needed. Visually in my head, something akin to the rear M Electronic Diff connected along the side of the engine with a very specific point and method of connection. It would be DCT based as well.

It's an AWD simply because it does turn all 4 sometimes but won't carry a thing like X Drive as a label. The RWD version (if both do come) looks to have a lowered engine torque figure.

Sounds a little bit like the Ferrari FF version of 4wd Liam?

It would be good if that was the case with the engine/front axle mounting done more like the FF than the standard BMW through the engine sump configuration which does NOTHING for weight distribution. I'm really afraid the new M5 is going to feel like a numb and understeering Audi with torque steering due to the off centre front diff and the trend of a higher percentage of weight at the front, as per my the thread I made a few days ago.

[Alpine300zhp]

Originally Posted by e92_m3

First of all, nice rendering jonsibal. Good work as always!

My only gripe here is that the new M5 looks really close to the current F80. It's just like a bigger F80 M3 with a slight cosmetic mod. Tbh, there was a "wow" factor that I received when the M5 went from the E60 to the F10. On this new model however, it's just like meh. The design jump was so subtle that this new model didn't impress me cosmetically. Take note, I'm only talking about looks here. Performance wise, this incoming model will outshine the current M5 for sure.

This is exactly what I was thinking. It looks like a big F80.....

[termigni]

Originally Posted by SlammedR8

I'm usually a big fan of your work but I think in this case the bumper is too large, wide and open for the car. It looks aftermarket and not something that would come out of the factory.

It needs to be toned down quite a bit to look more OEM.

BMW did it to M2. looks aftermarket but it works on modern day BMWs.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by brad850csi

Sounds a little bit like the Ferrari FF version of 4wd Liam?

It would be good if that was the case with the engine/front axle mounting done more like the FF than the standard BMW through the engine sump configuration which does NOTHING for weight distribution. I'm really afraid the new M5 is going to feel like a numb and understeering Audi with torque steering due to the off centre front diff and the trend of a higher percentage of weight at the front, as per my the thread I made a few days ago.

That's one of the systems that first popped into my head but it's instantly out due to space restrictions and layout. It's also very noticible when it's operating but I LOVE the FF as a daily or fun trip car, but not as a track car.

I'm actually thinking about it in depth as to exactly what I'd expect as a consumer and professionally how I'd design the system.

You managed to spend some time in the RS6 right?

The weight distribution is barely perceptible on the BMW. XDrive with performance Drive is pretty good for a full time AWD.

Weight reduction factors are more significant for F90 and suggested to be up to 200kg. In my opinion, the weight loss isn't as import as getting more power down. What is going to have a significant impact is the noise level. G30 has extensive and very effective sound deadening and brings back double pane acoustic glass to normal models. The F90 needs to have more NVH noise than F10.

[superherorockstar]

The front end reminds me slightly of the m2

[shivaswrath]

Can't wait for the CP!

[PARTS@STBMW]

Such a beauty!

[C5 FOR]

Originally Posted by SlammedR8

I'm usually a big fan of your work but I think in this case the bumper is too large, wide and open for the car. It looks aftermarket and not something that would come out of the factory.

It needs to be toned down quite a bit to look more OEM.

More shots fired......

Well, blanks at least.......

[$hah$]

Just needs the mirrors!

[Bahn360Photo]

how about cf roof and M mirrors?

[brad850csi]

Originally Posted by lemetier

That's one of the systems that first popped into my head but it's instantly out due to space restrictions and layout. It's also very noticible when it's operating but I LOVE the FF as a daily or fun trip car, but not as a track car.

I'm actually thinking about it in depth as to exactly what I'd expect as a consumer and professionally how I'd design the system.

You managed to spend some time in the RS6 right?

The weight distribution is barely perceptible on the BMW. XDrive with performance Drive is pretty good for a full time AWD.

Weight reduction factors are more significant for F90 and suggested to be up to 200kg. In my opinion, the weight loss isn't as import as getting more power down. What is going to have a significant impact is the noise level. G30 has extensive and very effective sound deadening and brings back double pane acoustic glass to normal models. The F90 needs to have more NVH noise than F10.

I had wondered how perceptable the FF setup would be over a variety of different types of driving, possibly something that appeals to 60 year old and somewhat overweight golf players that are still talking about changing gears with paddles like Schumacher

The RS6 has a large amount of torque steer due to how far offset the front diff is to the driver (In New Zealand, in the USA it is offset to the passenger) and on small windy roads it gives me no confidence at all when I'm trying to place the car or corner accurately. Of course it also feels very front heavy.

I hope that the BMW system of having the front diff set to the side of the engine sump at about the location of cylinders 3 and 4 in a V8 will reduce these issues due to it being closer to the centreline of the car and not hanging the engine out over the front wheels in its entirety.

One option which I think is doable is to run the shaft out of the transfer case to the very front of the engine, and have the crown wheel casing kind of like a large hollow shaft to locate the front diff centre right in the centreline of the car, just in front of the engine. This also allows for a lower engine height and less complexity than two gearboxes and won't add much weight at all to the car compared to what BMW are doing at the moment. It does still impeed on the cabin room or create an extra long nose to the car with a long wheelbase, probably 200-250mm longer than now for the same interior room.

Mitsubishi used something simlar in the Evo and VR-4 with the centre diff in the gearbox where you think the front diff would be located, then two hollow shafts sending power for both front and rear wheels to the centre of the car, the outer was connected to the rear prop shaft and the inner was connected to the front diff, the shaft coming out for the passenger side (again in NZ) went back through these hollow shafts. This meant no torque steer at all, however doing agressive launches would bend and eventully snap the hollow shafts. But those systems sent more power to the front and the hollow shafts needed to be quite thin as there were two of them, I'm suggesting with the system above it could effectively be the entire crown wheel of the front diff is simply offset with this hollow shaft, which would allow it to be thick and the larger diameter would also make it stronger.

I don't see that this will happen though, it is too much to change for just one car in the same chassis as other volume cars.

[evanescent03]

looks like a great start. I hope it handles decently well (for a large car), if so, I want one!!

[krautmeister]

Can I ask a noob-ish question? Wouldn't the new M5 be based on the G30? I'm not totally up to speed on all chassis designations and news since the E60 and now F10.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by brad850csi

I had wondered how perceptable the FF setup would be over a variety of different types of driving, possibly something that appeals to 60 year old and somewhat overweight golf players that are still talking about changing gears with paddles like Schumacher

What makes it so noticeable:

It's only active with the manettino in comfort or winter mode, and with the main DCT in gears 1-4. The front Transmission has 2 gears (Low covers 1-2 and High 3-4). To make it even more complicated, they don't have the same ratios. The clutches are in constant slip. When it's slippery, that 4-5 change up can be "not normal" since its suddenly a RWD.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by brad850csi

I had wondered how perceptable the FF setup would be over a variety of different types of driving, possibly something that appeals to 60 year old and somewhat overweight golf players that are still talking about changing gears with paddles like Schumacher

The RS6 has a large amount of torque steer due to how far offset the front diff is to the driver (In New Zealand, in the USA it is offset to the passenger) and on small windy roads it gives me no confidence at all when I'm trying to place the car or corner accurately. Of course it also feels very front heavy.

I hope that the BMW system of having the front diff set to the side of the engine sump at about the location of cylinders 3 and 4 in a V8 will reduce these issues due to it being closer to the centreline of the car and not hanging the engine out over the front wheels in its entirety.

One option which I think is doable is to run the shaft out of the transfer case to the very front of the engine, and have the crown wheel casing kind of like a large hollow shaft to locate the front diff centre right in the centreline of the car, just in front of the engine. This also allows for a lower engine height and less complexity than two gearboxes and won't add much weight at all to the car compared to what BMW are doing at the moment. It does still impeed on the cabin room or create an extra long nose to the car with a long wheelbase, probably 200-250mm longer than now for the same interior room.

Mitsubishi used something simlar in the Evo and VR-4 with the centre diff in the gearbox where you think the front diff would be located, then two hollow shafts sending power for both front and rear wheels to the centre of the car, the outer was connected to the rear prop shaft and the inner was connected to the front diff, the shaft coming out for the passenger side (again in NZ) went back through these hollow shafts. This meant no torque steer at all, however doing agressive launches would bend and eventully snap the hollow shafts. But those systems sent more power to the front and the hollow shafts needed to be quite thin as there were two of them, I'm suggesting with the system above it could effectively be the entire crown wheel of the front diff is simply offset with this hollow shaft, which would allow it to be thick and the larger diameter would also make it stronger.

I don't see that this will happen though, it is too much to change for just one car in the same chassis as other volume cars.

Regarding the RS6 having unequal length drive shafts I think you might have mixed that up with some other car...

Audi traditionally use a different front wheel drive and AWD layout than other manufacturers. Audi mounts the engine in a "North-South" direction, just like on a traditional RWD car (just like on a BMW 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7-series) while the traditional FWD engine layout is a "East-West" layout. Also called a transverse layout instead of the longitudinal layout of a RWD car.

The Audi layout means that the engine is mounted in front of the gearbox and the driveshafts to the front wheels comes out on either side of the gearbox. This is also why Audis are so front heavy, the engine literally hangs out in front of the front axle centerline (while BMW tries to have as much as possible of the engine behind the front axle centerline).

Audi do have a diff to one side on their modern transmissions (in order to get the engine as far back as possible compared to the older layout) but is clever enough to mirror the protrusion from the case, caused by the diff, on the opposite side. This means that the driveshafts on a RS6 (or any other Audi with this layout such as any A4, A5, A6 based car) are equal length and aren't the reason behind torque steer. Any car with drive on the front wheels is susceptible to torque steer as long as you have some power going to the front wheels.

Also, on the traditional East-West (transverse) FWD cars it has been a long tome since at least higher powered cars doesn't have equal length drive shafts. What they do is to have a intermediate shaft along the engine block going to the wheel that is farthest from the diff. The intermediate shaft basically serves as an extension of the diff flange on that side, and since it's solidly attached via bearings to the engine, the flange at the end of it really is just an extension of the flange at the diff. This means that both front wheels have equal length drive shafts because they have moved the mounting flange for the drive shaft to the same position on both sides.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_steering


Audi RS4 engine layout:



Shows the architecture of a typical Audi transmission which allows for equal length drive shafts (notice there is an extension on the casings right hand side to mirror the distance created by the diff on the left hand side):



RS5 showing how the drive shafts are equal length:



Old Audi design with diff centrally mounted in the transmission but which also means the engine is hanging even further out in front of the axle centerline. This is a "cleaner" design than the modern Audi transmissions but is horrible for weight distribution...:



Traditional FWD with East-West layout showing unequal and equal length drive shafts:

[brad850csi]

I'm aware of all of this, it was the A5 and 2008 A4 I think that changed the location of the front diff iirc.

I understand that there is the equal length setup now with the fixed intermediate shaft running through the middle of the gearbox, but that still means that from the diff, one side just has the weight of a shaft and the other side has a both that weight as well as the weight of the intermediate shaft. Perhaps I shouldn't have worded my post quite that way, but in my mind the front diff isn't in the centre line, so there is still an effective difference in inertia between left and right.

It is 100% noticable in the lower gears and makes for a crap driving experience. As per my sig I have a C63 as my daily driver and the owner of the company I work for has had a number of quick Audis including the previous 3.0 Supercharged S4 and two of the current gen RS6, one prefacelift and one facelift. I've driven all of the cars quite a bit and I really enjoyed the DSG in the S4 as well as the lighter weight. The steering was a bit weird in regards to weight and consistent feel, but perhaps the 440nm wasn't enough to really show off the torque steer.

The first time I drove the RS6 however I remember when I floored it in 2nd gear at about 60kmh on the Auckland Harbour Bridge and it pulled the car noticeably to the left, then when I lifted off the throttle the car jumped back across to the right. It probably feels a lot more than it actually is, but it makes for hard precise driving on the narrow country roads that we have over here.

As soon as I experienced this again on a tight road where you don't get above 100kmh at all and still manage to use 40l/100km (6mpg) I thought to myself no, I'm never having one of these, even if it is a free hand me down from the owner when my C63 needs to go back, I'd prefer my C63 thank you!

I've driven an X5M and X6M on the BMW xdrive alpine experience but it wasn't clear on the snow if they had the same issue as all 4 wheels were spinning the entire time and depending on what previous tracks you were running over the cars could move massively all over the place (was so much fun) so I can't say if the BMW solution of having the front diff hanging off the side of the block will be an issue. What it will do however is give the M5 a very similar weight distribution to the current RS6/7 and I'm afraid it will feel quite nose heavy like the RS6 does.