[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by hinckley

That was true once, but no longer. MTs are the enthusiast's choice in North America only. Enthusiasts/purists in the rest of the world moved on to DCT-like transmissions many years ago. In Europe and elsewhere, MTs are the poor man's transmission of choice. That's why BMW offered MTs in the M5 and M6 only in the North American market. Sad but true.

Yeah because the idiots of the world wanna be like americans so much they copy our bad behaviors (aka automatic transmissions and jugging coffee cigarettes and cellphones)

[dawgs2run]

Quite sad. People would rather drive their cell phone than their car. Why not just skip the M and get a regular 5 or 6 series and let the car do the auto corrections for you.

[JNoSol]

Originally Posted by dawgs2run

Quite sad. People would rather drive their cell phone than their car. Why not just skip the M and get a regular 5 or 6 series and let the car do the auto corrections for you.

The next gen M5/M6 will have AWD only. Have you ever tried to launch a high power AWD with a manual? It's almost impossible to launch an AWD with a manual consistently, it requires high rev and riding the clutch. Even GTRs (AWD sport car) don't offer a manual, why should a luxurious AWD M5 offer it?

I drove manual for over 15yrs. A DCT is still faster, no matter how well you drive a manual.

High power AWD and Manual don't mix.

[DLerner]

BMW is evolving their brand. Gone are the days of building niche vehicles for a small segment of buyers looking for engaging, driver oriented vehicles. Today's BMW is about being the biggest and most profitable car company in the world. You make that transition by producing cars with broader appeal. That means something for everyone with price, size, tech, luxury, safety, customer service, reliability all being factors equal to or more important than driver engagement.

The manual transmission fell out of favor in the U.S. when the govt. increased safety, emissions and efficiency regulations requiring expensive testing and certification of both manuals and automatics. Since the take rate on autos was higher, car companies made a conscious effort to streamline and reduce model variations and go all in on autos. They're easier to sell, market and you can charge more for them. So if I don't know anyone who drives a manual, there are no manuals when I go to buy a car and the car companies aren't marketing or pushing manuals - well, yeah, it was a self fulfilling prophecy - the end of the manual.

I drive a manual F10 5er and I love the engagement. Does it have the weight, balance, power and engagement of my E46 manual? Not even close, BMW has changed a lot in the past decade. Is it 1000x more engaging to drive vs. an auto F10? Hell yes.

The bad news - BMW is getting away from building driver's cars. It's a disappointment for those of us who counted on them for that.
The good news - another brand will see the void and capitalize on it.

It's simple market dynamics.

[N.S.A]

Wait isn't it so pose to be the g30 not f90?

[48Laws]

Originally Posted by JNoSol

The next gen M5/M6 will have AWD only. Have you ever tried to launch a high power AWD with a manual? It's almost impossible to launch an AWD with a manual consistently, it requires high rev and riding the clutch. Even GTRs (AWD sport car) don't offer a manual, why should a luxurious AWD M5 offer it?

I drove manual for over 15yrs. A DCT is still faster, no matter how well you drive a manual.

High power AWD and Manual don't mix.

That's not the best argument for eliminating manuals. Lol. Launching issues? Really?

[DOMs335D]

I don't understand how that's news. Instead of complaining that they are dropping them from cars where almost nobody wanted a manual trans anyways should we not be happy that we are still getting MTs on cars we actually want them on? A la M3/4, M2 and some none M cars as well as the Porsche Models I care about. Developing mt in today's market can't be a profitable undertaking so I'm glad I get them in vehicles they belong to. The M5/6 in my opinion is no longer aimed at the same person as the E39 and it's predecessors were. that spot has been taken by the M3 now. So thanks BMW and Porsche for not being like Mercedes or Audi.

[JasW]

What's intriguing is that there is a huge demand for manuals in the CPO market. I simply could not find a CPO M3 with a manual (also looking in the E93 catgegory admittedly) after looking for a whole year. I broadened my search to include the M5 and even the 550i, and that was just as fruitless. The 335is E93 6MT I have now eventually popped up, and I grabbed it. The dealer explained to me the reason for the difficulty: when they do get in manuals in these categories, they don't sell them on the lot, they put them on eBay to sell for cash on the barrelhead. For reasons unknown to him, they hadn't done that with mine.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Eddien123

What a joke. Only a matter of time before the m3 loses its manual.

If it keeps getting bigger .. Yes it will ..

[PawnStar]

Driver involvement no more. I miss the good ole' days when you could walk up to the car on a cold morning, give it a few cranks to get the carburetor going, then get in, roll down window, push in the cigarette lighter and crank up some tunes on the 8 track. Those were the days...

In not so distant future, drivers will look at the manual transmissions on today's cars in the same way we look at the carburetor cranks and roll up windows.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by N.S.A

Wait isn't it [supposed] to be the g30 not f90?

G30 is the 5 Series sedan, F90 is the M5 sedan.

Starting with the F80 M3, all M vehicles have their own chassis codes. BMW is apparently using up some remaining slots in the Fxx number range, hence the F90 M5. Additionally, The G01-based X3 M is F97 and the G02-based X4 M is F98. The M6 variants will take other F9x codes as well, but it remains to be seen what range the Gxx-based M3, M4, X5 M, X6 M identifiers will fall under. There aren't enough in the F9x sequence to accommodate all of them.

[SamS]

Originally Posted by N.S.A

Wait isn't it so pose to be the g30 not f90?

G30 is the next regular 5 series, F90 is next M5.

[ChrisNich117]

Loved my DCT m3 and m5 and no other company except BMW even offers a DCT gearbox for their performance sedans except Porsche. AMG only offers DCT in their AMG GT, and Audi has it for the RS5 and R8. Ferrari, Lamborghini and Mclaren don't offer manuals, yet BMW is somehow at fault lol. The f10 wasn't even supposed to have a manual but NA showed enough demand to make it economically feasible.

I'm also curious as to why the new m5 is an f90 and not a g30. Perhaps since they are improving upon the same engine they might follow the Mercedes approach and use a new engine half way through the life span for an LCI update? Seems logical, especially since this is the first time they've decided to use the same engine for a new generation.

[boosted43]

Oh god, this again? For f*cks sake get over it. Manuals are out and do not perform anywhere near as good as the dual clutch and auto trannie's now.

[JNoSol]

Originally Posted by 48Laws

That's not the best argument for eliminating manuals. Lol. Launching issues? Really?

It is very valid. Not all manual drivers are smooth enough to launch a high power AWD vehicle. AWD is not forgiving to launch hard if you don't know what you are doing. Not launching a high power AWD correctly and you'll destroy tranny, diff, clutch, transfer case, and axles. BMWs would have a warranty nightmare on their hands. Even purist car makers like Porsche took the manual away for the Turbo 911s.

[JNoSol]

Originally Posted by kabawi91

Oh god, this again? For f*cks sake get over it. Manuals are out and do not perform anywhere near as good as the dual clutch and auto trannie's now.

Thank you. These are the same jokers that rather listen to vinyl records instead of CDs. They are the same guys who rather have an N/A cars, but secretly smile when the boost kicks in. I'm willing to bet only 3% (being conservative) of them even know how to heel and toe correctly with a manual.

Even the GT3 guys don't bitch as much when they went all DCT. Is a GT3 still desirable? Hell yes.

[Diver]

So what. Despite the talk, nobody is buying manual transmission in the 5 & 6 series.

[Godchild14]

Originally Posted by EzequielR

I understand why they are getting rid of it, but it would be cool if they kept it around.

Also, I remember reading in the M5 forums that there was a 6MT owner who was not happy with the tranny, as it felt like it was not intended for the car. This same owner test drove a DCT and validated his "theory". Although that was the opinion of only one person it definitely intrigued me while reading it.

Would you rather have a flawless DCT or a sluggish 6MT? Based off the story above. Personally, I would choose DCT on an M5, but I will be choosing 6MT for my upcoming F80 build.

I feel the same way I agree with you 100 percent it's the worst when your M goes into that sluggish mode so I would rather have DCT like I have now in my M3 instead of MT

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ChrisNich117

Loved my DCT m3 and m5 and no other company except BMW even offers a DCT gearbox for their performance sedans except Porsche. AMG only offers DCT in their AMG GT, and Audi has it for the RS5 and R8.

The CLA45 also has a DCT, although it is reportedly not so great. The S6 and S7 have a DCT as well. Those are not in M5/M6/E64 territory like the RS7 is, but they are performance sedans nevertheless.

I'm also curious as to why the new m5 is an f90 and not a g30. Perhaps since they are improving upon the same engine they might follow the Mercedes approach and use a new engine half way through the life span for an LCI update? Seems logical, especially since this is the first time they've decided to use the same engine for a new generation.

I don't think it is very likely that they'll change engines during the F90 lifespan. The following generation M5 is likely to have something quite different though. The reason for the F90 model code instead of G30 is that all M models now have their own unique chassis code.

[hinckley]

Originally Posted by YodaSyrup

The manual transmission fell out of favor in the U.S. when the govt. increased safety, emissions and efficiency regulations requiring expensive testing and certification of both manuals and automatics.

I think that that's only partially true. The history of the automatic transmission in the US is fascinating (imo). They were first introduced by Oldsmobile just before the US entered WW2 and car production stopped for 4 or 5 years. But just a couple of years after production resumed, over 85% of all Oldsmobiles had autos (and almost 100% of Cadillacs had them). By 1957 or so, over 80% of all American cars were sold with ATs. So it was an extraordinary quick adoption rate.

Through my early years (60s, 70s, 80s) MTs were a niche option (15%?) for enthusiasts and entry-level car buyers. And yes, the cost of new certification regulations made it increasing difficult for manufacturers to continue to sell into that small and shrinking market.

Let's face it gents, there's only a few of us left. I'm going thru the process right now of deciding whether to buy an MT car that isn't really what I want, or to finally bite the bullet and move on. I know that at most, I only have one or two more MTs in my future (other than my Porsches, I hope).

[48Laws]

Originally Posted by JNoSol

It is very valid. Not all manual drivers are smooth enough to launch a high power AWD vehicle. AWD is not forgiving to launch hard if you don't know what you are doing. Not launching a high power AWD correctly and you'll destroy tranny, diff, clutch, transfer case, and axles. BMWs would have a warranty nightmare on their hands. Even purist car makers like Porsche took the manual away for the Turbo 911s.

Bro, I'm talking about launching. Most don't do that bs. Lol. Just saying...

[1LegitM235i]

Originally Posted by YodaSyrup

BMW is evolving their brand. Gone are the days of building niche vehicles for a small segment of buyers looking for engaging, driver oriented vehicles. Today's BMW is about being the biggest and most profitable car company in the world. You make that transition by producing cars with broader appeal. That means something for everyone with price, size, tech, luxury, safety, customer service, reliability all being factors equal to or more important than driver engagement.

The manual transmission fell out of favor in the U.S. when the govt. increased safety, emissions and efficiency regulations requiring expensive testing and certification of both manuals and automatics. Since the take rate on autos was higher, car companies made a conscious effort to streamline and reduce model variations and go all in on autos. They're easier to sell, market and you can charge more for them. So if I don't know anyone who drives a manual, there are no manuals when I go to buy a car and the car companies aren't marketing or pushing manuals - well, yeah, it was a self fulfilling prophecy - the end of the manual.

I drive a manual F10 5er and I love the engagement. Does it have the weight, balance, power and engagement of my E46 manual? Not even close, BMW has changed a lot in the past decade. Is it 1000x more engaging to drive vs. an auto F10? Hell yes.

The bad news - BMW is getting away from building driver's cars. It's a disappointment for those of us who counted on them for that.
The good news - another brand will see the void and capitalize on it.

It's simple market dynamics.

Hit that one in the nail brother! Yes, between the Gov't emission regulation, demand for 8AT and DCTs and marketable demand of automatics, BMWs and other car brands are forced to follow the demand. Unfortunately, it started with M5/M6s, and it's inevitable it will follow suit to the rest of BMW line ups.

I'm an optimist and I think we can change that if all the enthusiast in world changes the demand. The hard part is continuing the "manual mentoring" to the next generation of enthusiast. I think I did my part by teaching my son and daughter how to drive one, but is that enough to change the paradigm. Time will tell. I hate to say this, but the younger enthusiast are about getting the fastest car without feedback and driver's engagement. That's the battle we are going against and hope there will be a shift of change in the future! Pun is definitely intended! #ManualLivesMatter!