[brad65ford]

So after read and watching the raving reviews regarding how much better the MC steering is compared to the lower class M5's. Can this be as simple as a programming change we can do?

[WayneM3]

Originally Posted by brad65ford

So after read and watching the raving reviews regarding how much better the MC steering is compared to the lower class M5's. Can this be as simple as a programming change we can do?

I find it hard to believe that there is THAT much of a difference between the cars - from an owner of one of the lower class M5C's!

[brad65ford]

Originally Posted by WayneM3

I find it hard to believe that there is THAT much of a difference between the cars - from an owner of one of the lower class M5C's!

Totally agree, the video just release from throttle house was kind of shocking how much the one guy was bashing the crap out of how much he didn't like the m5 comp compared to the new CS. While I do believe its awesome how the hell could it be night and day difference like they are stating seriously.

[brad65ford]

You and watch the difference of the steering wheel movement between the two.

[AHall]

I am curious about this as well. What is the difference? Is it hardware or software? I never understood the whole steering feel thing anyways. The closest I will get to a racetrack is my recent trip to Andretti's cart racing. I wouldn't want a car that feels like a go kart.

[Boiler Up!]

A variable that I think is worth calling out, tires. When ThrottleHouse reviewed the M5C LCI it had Pilot Alpin PA4 winter tires. My F80 was a night and day difference between summer and winter tires. I wonder how much this influenced their opinions.

[Handful]

Originally Posted by Boiler Up!

A variable that I think is worth calling out, tires. When ThrottleHouse reviewed the M5C LCI it had Pilot Alpin PA4 winter tires. My F80 was a night and day difference between summer and winter tires. I wonder how much this influenced their opinions.

You're exactly right and they should preface their comments about the LCI with this fact. Regardless, their overall opinion was very positive regarding the LCI. Additionally, it's hard to find independent thinkers in the world of journalism, as they tend to ape each others remarks and opinions.

[Greer]

Also, if you get an LCI M5 Competition with ceramic brakes and Michelin 4S tires and get an M5 CS with the same tires I bet there is not that big a difference.

[Fantastic 5]

Totally agree. Match up the tires and it's very similar. Agree even more that there is no independent thought in journalism…pathetic.

[bimmerbeast7]

Originally Posted by brad65ford

Totally agree, the video just release from throttle house was kind of shocking how much the one guy was bashing the crap out of how much he didn't like the m5 comp compared to the new CS. While I do believe its awesome how the hell could it be night and day difference like they are stating seriously.

not to mention.. the CS has the revised m8 front suspension/struts.. so does the m5c

and mat watson carwow Just recorded the same 0 to 60 in the CS as he did in an m5c with CCB's .

[irablumberg]

Could there also be a difference in the alignment specs between the "pedestrian" M5C and the CS?

I was also a bit disappointed with the Throttle House video as they claimed some of the better handling / steering feel was due to reducing front end weight. If I read the BMW specs correctly, the CS is actually slightly more front weight biased than the M5C. It is a bit lighter overall, but not that much when equipped like for like, so I actually doubt the 100 to 150 lbs weight reduction makes much difference, particularly when there were 2 good sized Canucks in the car ;-).

[MSchfiftyFive]

For starters, it runs P-Zero Corsa extreme sport track summer's, which are about as close to a dedicated track tire as you're going to get from the factory. The front suspension is 7mm lower and a tweaked version of what's offered in the M8, along w/ the 70kg less weight, part of which is unsprung weight in the wheels and more noticeable from the steering wheel, along with a slightly retuned steering rack, driving them back to back in their sportiest setting probably feels noticably different. It's not night and day, but as a track hoon machine (which the CS is), it's better suited than the M5C...but that's what I love about the M5C, I don't want a track machine as my daily. The M5C is juuust enough crazy to live with city driving 8/10 times that I drive it, the extra edge of the CS would get old quick.

I'd still love to hoon the shit out of one around a track or closed course event though, looks like a blast.

[irablumberg]

Originally Posted by MSchfiftyFive

For starters, it runs P-Zero Corsa extreme sport track summer's, which are about as close to a dedicated track tire as you're going to get from the factory. The front suspension is 7mm lower and a tweaked version of what's offered in the M8, along w/ the 70kg less weight, part of which is unsprung weight in the wheels and more noticeable from the steering wheel, along with a slightly retuned steering rack, driving them back to back in their sportiest setting probably feels noticably different. It's not night and day, but as a track hoon machine (which the CS is), it's better suited than the M5C...but that's what I love about the M5C, I don't want a track machine as my daily. The M5C is juuust enough crazy to live with city driving 8/10 times that I drive it, the extra edge of the CS would get old quick.

I'd still love to hoon the shit out of one around a track or closed course event though, looks like a blast.

Completely agree regarding the difference in tires.

From the specs BMW has published, I think the CS is 7mm lower than the base M5, but has the same ride height as the LCI Comp. I also have not seen anything suggesting that the front suspension differs between the CS and the LCI Comp given that both appear to be derived from the M8 GC. Finally, I think the wheels on the CS weigh the same as the forged wheels on the Comp and the carbon brakes are the same for both models as well. Thus, not sure there is any difference in unsprung / rotating mass.

All of this raises the questions this thread asks, how different is the steering feel between the CS and Comp in reality and what accounts for it?

[MSchfiftyFive]

Originally Posted by irablumberg

Completely agree regarding the difference in tires.

From the specs BMW has published, I think the CS is 7mm lower than the base M5, but has the same ride height as the LCI Comp. I also have not seen anything suggesting that the front suspension differs between the CS and the LCI Comp given that both appear to be derived from the M8 GC. Finally, I think the wheels on the CS weigh the same as the forged wheels on the Comp and the carbon brakes are the same for both models as well. Thus, not sure there is any difference in unsprung / rotating mass.

All of this raises the questions this thread asks, how different is the steering feel between the CS and Comp in reality and what accounts for it?

Around 4:19 goes into detail on suspension differences between the base and the M5C, as well as LCI specific tweaks for 2021. I'm betting all of this has been revised yet again for the CS (the articles and BMW's own press release just say "revised tuning", which could mean any or none of these pieces) People that have driven them back to back immediately notice the CS as having a firmer ride, which could be retuned dampers alone.

Tweaking camber, stiffer front and rear shocks w/ recalibrated dampers, potentially tweaked toe links, all things that would be straightforward (cost effective) to tweak to be a little more aggressive in the CS and translate to a different steering feel when combined w/ the weight loss and reduced sound deadening to make the car feel more "alive" than the Comp. Add in the tires and I could see why folks think it feels substantially different when pushed hard on a track. Until BMW publishes actual suspension parts or specs, all of that is just conjecture.

That said, recalibrating the electronic steering does not suddenly give a car more road holding steering feel, you can feel what that does by changing steering modes. You can make it more stiff, you can make it less stiff, it doesn't change the way the car drives at the limit and it doesn't increase communication of what's going on with the road...tweaking what I mentioned above WILL increase those qualities, so I'm guessing that's all they've done. (In addition to any engine, drivetrain, or suspension electronic retuning)

[Ex_Stig]

I'm guessing that it is probably a tweak in the steering settings (Comfort, Sport, Sport+). All they would have to do is just incrementally tighten each one, slightly, and it would make people feel like the steering is totally different.

If that is the case, the tuners will be able to adjust that at some point when they crack the ECU.

The other thought is tires. All season are gonna feel totally different than PS4s. Also, I'm gonna guess that the majority of people who ordered the M5CS did not go for the P Zero Corsa tires.

[Handful]

Moto - Man (above article) asserts that the steering falls into place in terms of feedback, and feel once the car is placed into rear wheel drive mode. This tells me that it is more of a calibration issue, although I'm sure tires, shock calibration, and the lighter unsprung weight makes a difference too.

[NBTBRV8]

It is surprising that no one has done a back to back comparison test between the C and the CS yet. All the reviews are in isolation.

[Greer]

Originally Posted by NBTBRV8

It is surprising that no one has done a back to back comparison test between the C and the CS yet. All the reviews are in isolation.

Well, when my 2022 M5 Competition arrives I will be sure to find an owner of an M5 CS and do our own homegrown test.

[MSchfiftyFive]

For reference, that Carwow comparo post from a few days ago was in super muggy conditions w/ terrible DA, all of those cars ran .3-5 seconds off their times in even good DA. The same guy owned an RS6 for a while and ran an 11.27 in it on a cool, dry morning, whereas it ran an 11.7 in the most recent video.

The CS ran a 10.9 in that video, but in even neutral DA, it's going to be more like a 10.6-10.7. It would be nice to see a direct run in the same weather and location between an LCI Comp and the CS though.

Originally Posted by Handful

Moto - Man (above article) asserts that the steering falls into place in terms of feedback, and feel once the car is placed into rear wheel drive mode. This tells me that it is more of a calibration issue, although I'm sure tires, shock calibration, and the lighter unsprung weight makes a difference too.

The steering doesn't fall into place, the car just drives like you'd expect a RWD overpowered missile to drive. I've done it myself and it responds the way you'd expect, the throttle oversteer is very controllable. The steering itself is the same. If you've done any time on a track it's really easy to see through artificial increases in steering force that do not translate to any actual increase in road holding feel or what the front tires are doing. You could make the steering wheel so stiff it feels like it doesn't even have power steering and that does nothing to increase how well it's communicating the road holding of the front wheels.

Take a little Miata w/ standard mechanical power steering out on a track and push it to the edge and you can feel every pit on the track as the tires start to understeer...we don't really get any of that feedback in the M5C, and increasing steering wheel feedback through electronic tuning alone doesn't change that. For folks in these review vids that have actually pushed cars to the edge in track events, to notice a difference in road holding feel like they have in each CS video, means they're doing more than electronic steering adjustments, end of story.

[Handful]

Originally Posted by MSchfiftyFive

For reference, that Carwow comparo post from a few days ago was in super muggy conditions w/ terrible DA, all of those cars ran .3-5 seconds off their times in even good DA. The same guy owned an RS6 for a while and ran an 11.27 in it on a cool, dry morning, whereas it ran an 11.7 in the most recent video.

The CS ran a 10.9 in that video, but in even neutral DA, it's going to be more like a 10.6-10.7. It would be nice to see a direct run in the same weather and location between an LCI Comp and the CS though.



The steering doesn't fall into place, the car just drives like you'd expect a RWD overpowered missile to drive. I've done it myself and it responds the way you'd expect, the throttle oversteer is very controllable. The steering itself is the same. If you've done any time on a track it's really easy to see through artificial increases in steering force that do not translate to any actual increase in road holding feel or what the front tires are doing. You could make the steering wheel so stiff it feels like it doesn't even have power steering and that does nothing to increase how well it's communicating the road holding of the front wheels.

Take a little Miata w/ standard mechanical power steering out on a track and push it to the edge and you can feel every pit on the track as the tires start to understeer...we don't really get any of that feedback in the M5C, and increasing steering wheel feedback through electronic tuning alone doesn't change that. For folks in these review vids that have actually pushed cars to the edge in track events, to notice a difference in road holding feel like they have in each CS video, means they're doing more than electronic steering adjustments, end of story.

"End of story" Haaaaaaaaa! Take a deep breath. I clearly stated that the calibration in addition to lower sprung weight, tires, and shock calibration is reflected in the CS's steering feel and responsiveness. I've never driven a Miata on track but I have driven Porsches, early model M3's and Ferraris, and other high performing cars. The Ferrari's steering is soooo precise that you can feel a blade of grass, and the composition of the occasional patches of sand that collect on certain parts of the track....
Moto-Man states that in "rear wheel drive mode it turns into a complete weapon of a vehicle," and then he goes onto say" I immediately notice the difference in the steering. It feels like an old school M car." My 2022 M5C is supposed to go into production next week, so it'll be a while before I can judge for myself. In the meantime. cheers and have fun with the beast.

[MSchfiftyFive]

Originally Posted by Handful

"End of story" Haaaaaaaaa! Take a deep breath. I clearly stated that the calibration in addition to lower sprung weight, tires, and shock calibration is reflected in the CS's steering feel and responsiveness. I've never driven a Miata on track but I have driven Porsches, early model M3's and Ferraris, and other high performing cars. The Ferrari's steering is soooo precise that you can feel a blade of grass, and the composition of the occasional patches of sand that collect on certain parts of the track....
Moto-Man states that in "rear wheel drive mode it turns into a complete weapon of a vehicle," and then he goes onto say" I immediately notice the difference in the steering. It feels like an old school M car." My 2022 M5C is supposed to go into production next week, so it'll be a while before I can judge for myself. In the meantime. cheers and have fun with the beast.

To be clear, I said that as in that's just objectively what's happening, nothing else expressed or implied, enjoy the new ride once it arrives!

I like Moto-Man's review because it's accurate, but the change in dynamics he's talking about is because you've turned it into a RWD vehicle, the steering itself doesn't feel any different or suddenly gain any road holding feel, which was my point. You'll be able to feel the same thing, it feels like a high power RWD car (which is great), but it doesn't suddenly add a ton of road holding feel to the steering at the limit, something the car still lacks in every mode once you've tracked a car that DOES have a ton of communication of what the front wheels are doing. (Meaning it's not just an electronic calibration issue, in terms of differences to the CS, as a few have alluded in this thread, not directed at you in particular)

[AHall]

This whole steering feeling thing, is this something you only notice when on a race track or pushing the car to its limits?