ATS-V vs M3/M4

[verbs]

Unfortunately BMW has taken a step back from what set itself apart historically, which was that it was a drivers car. I'm not talking the 3 series specifically, but all BMW cars. Yes I understand there are new safety regulations, customer wants, etc, but the combination of all the extra weight and the loss of hydraulic steering have very much numbed the driving experience.

While BMW is just now finally dropping weight with it's M3, it's late to the party. Mercedes has been dropping weight off its cars for a while. Take their SL model which shaved 250-300lbs off in their 2012+ models, while the BMW 6 series added hundreds of pounds, and now weighs about 600lbs more than the SL!

Others like Porsche seem to have done a much better job mastering the electric steering; I really hope BMW gets their steering together.

[Reznick]

I'm excited to see an ATS-V.It gives every car enthusiast out there another good option.I think everyone should buy what car suits them and forget about what the journalists say.BUt I do think it's foolish to dismiss a car based on what you "think" it is.I bet money that a large majority of people that just dismiss the Cadillac haven't drive one in the last 10 years, if at all.

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by Reznick

I bet money that a large majority of people that just dismiss the Cadillac haven't drive one in the last 10 years, if at all.

...

But this is an interesting development, just posted yesterday

...

http://rumors.automobilemag.com/cadi...#axzz2k15WEezO

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by basscadet

But this is an interesting development, just posted yesterday

You probably just missed it, but it was posted in this thread last week:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...2&postcount=22

[solstice]

GM should seriously consider a new brand. Caddilac is so strongly associated with the wrong type of cars and typical owner profile for the BMW M segment that it's brings a stigma that put the cars at an immediate disadvantage however competent they may be or become.

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by solstice

GM should seriously consider a new brand. Caddilac is so strongly associated with the wrong type of cars and typical owner profile for the BMW M segment that it's brings a stigma that put the cars at an immediate disadvantage however competent they may be or become.

Quite true, but if they keep making cars like the ATS and CTS-V, eventually those things should change. The ATS is generally favorably compared to the 3 series with the tranny being the negative differentiator and the suspension of all things being surprisingly great.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

For me right now it is not so much about the notions of lost cachet and brand dilution. Not that I am saying those things aren't in the mix, but they are subjective and dependent on the individual so they may not make as strong a case.

What we do know for sure, however, is that the competition becoming much better. And this isn't just from performance brands in the luxury class that are considered direct M competitors, such as Mercedes AMG, Lexus F, Cadillac V, Audi RS, but also from American Pony cars like Mustang and Camaro.

Right on. I like it when the BMW M fanboys still talk about how AMG cars don't handle or can't put down fast lap times. The handling issues on past AMGs were largely laid to rest with the introduction of the C63 AMG. Sure, maybe at limit, not quite as close to perfection as the M3 but pretty darn close.

[turbolag]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

It's not just about numbers.

So what advantage does the M3 have?

You took away the NA engines.
You took away the precise steering.
You took away the use of decent materials.

The M3 has no advantage.

[basscadet]

It is frankly a surprising concession from Scott. His post essentially concedes that BMW is now targeting efficiency and luxury as their market has now shifted from what it once was.

I do not blame BMW for wanting to be profitable. But I reject the idea that a sharp, powerful, focused, and athletic car is at odds with efficiency.

If Mercedes-Benz, Porsche, and General Motors are able to offer these types of cars to us, why can't BMW? These 4 are all competing in the same spaces. Why is it that Mercedes-Benz can make a 4-liter turbo V8 engine "work" in their C-class M3 competitor or that Cadillac can make a 3.2 liter turbo 6 that develops 500hp "work" in their M3 competitor (ATS-V), but BMW comes to the table with a 3.0 liter 6 that barely makes 15 bhp more than the motor used in the prior model, a car that is now going on 7 years old?

Surely Scott and other BMW reps on this forum can't expect us not to gander at what cars are on their competitor's lots?

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by solstice

GM should seriously consider a new brand. Caddilac is so strongly associated with the wrong type of cars and typical owner profile for the BMW M segment that it's brings a stigma that put the cars at an immediate disadvantage however competent they may be or become.

Can't agree with you enough!

Cadillac is vastly improved from a few years ago but can you imagine how much better these cars would be perceived if they had not had the Cadillac anchor tied around their necks?

Terrible photoshop, but look at the before and after. Which one looks worse?

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by basscadet

Can't agree with you enough!

Cadillac is vastly improved from a few years ago but can you imagine how much better these cars would be perceived if they had not had the Cadillac anchor tied around their necks?

Terrible photoshop, but look at the before and after. Which one looks worse?

I kind of like the second photo. First one looks cheap.

[cpippolo]

After owning two BMWs I took the plunge and bought an ATS 3.6 last December. I repeatedly drove the 335 and 328 as well as the ATS and decided on the ATS. Engines and transmissions are indeed better on the 3s, but chassis of ATS blew them away. Light weight, balanced, magnetic ride control, LSD all made for a blast in the turns. Very nimble, compared to the somewhat luxury car ride of the 3s. Interior of 3s slightly better than ATS, with the exception of the gauges, which are rental car atrocious on the ATS. Never thought I'd pass on the 3, but the have just moved to far from the formula that made my E90 so much fun. The ATS-V will be starting with a great chassis, so assuming they significantly improve engine and transmission it will be a formidable competitor to the M3. Would also help if they improve usability of CUE system. That said, I will drive both before deciding. Or maybe just wait for an M2.

[turbolag]

Originally Posted by cpippolo

After owning two BMWs I took the plunge and bought an ATS 3.6 last December. I repeatedly drove the 335 and 328 as well as the ATS and decided on the ATS. Engines and transmissions are indeed better on the 3s, but chassis of ATS blew them away. Light weight, balanced, magnetic ride control, LSD all made for a blast in the turns. Very nimble, compared to the somewhat luxury car ride of the 3s. Interior of 3s slightly better than ATS, with the exception of the gauges, which are rental car atrocious on the ATS. Never thought I'd pass on the 3, but the have just moved to far from the formula that made my E90 so much fun. The ATS-V will be starting with a great chassis, so assuming they significantly improve engine and transmission it will be a formidable competitor to the M3. Would also help if they improve usability of CUE system. That said, I will drive both before deciding. Or maybe just wait for an M2.

435i will have lsd. Just like the m235i. I don't know if the 3er can have it...

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Personally I don't and this includes many at Munich get worked up over comparison tests because we do our own internal comparison tests , internal but handled by outsiders for less bias.
We also do back to back benchmarking and we do find in certain outcomes that like everything else we see politics at work.

BMW stresses the importance of dynamics but the skyline has changed not just for BMW but everybody else. At BMW the goal is to remain independent and not fall down to committees. But there is more that is required from the automobile industry and Efficiency is one of them. BMW are meeting all targets and are the leading premium manufacturer in sustainability. There are several competitors who are not and end up having to pay the fines, as proved in the past no one can keep doing this forever.
But BMW are not just about EfficientDynamics although the benefits and implementation of the initiative has been very successful for the company and beneficial for the customer.

The customer dynamic is also changing and there is no choice but to adapt and to progress to the demands of the customer. Each BMW model stands for a particular customer , and the customer knows what they will get when they purchase a BMW.

The BMW image is embedded in the collective psyche. That is why I am concerned that when manufacturers or indeed auto media come out and say it is a better BMW you have to ask where is the originality?
Meeting a benchmark is important but you have to bring something new and interesting or else you are left with a perfect imitation.
Enthusiasts can see right through this, and enthusiasts can see that we are giving the cars that are desirable and fulfil a specific enthusiast criteria.
Examples such as the BMW M3 , M4 or M235i Coupes.

The new M3 and M4 are at a very enlightening period. The cars are lighter and we know that some of our competitors cannot match the lightweight aspects without spending more money and increasing the price of the product.
So BMW has a significant advantage. An advantage that will lead on to many other products within the BMW portfolio.

The BMW brand image has progressed due to actual progress especially with the advent of new markets and it is not just BMW that is a victim of its success.
In the landscape today no one can afford to stand still and the success lies in the unorthodox or blasphemous segments to traditional BMW enthusiasts.
The prospect of growth here in these segments are far too great to ignore , and that goes for new segments in which niche vehicles play a huge part in expansion. BMW is a huge innovator it invests on the here and now , if we take CFRP construction. Our main two competitors are a few years away from doing the same thing. In that five years we will see replacements of all the current BMW models utilising CFRP in key areas ahead of our competition.
And that weight reduction will be noticeable especially within an M car.

The next 5er will use CFRP in the heaviest areas of the chassis but CFRP body panels in one area or the other will be reserved for the next M5.
Due to recent reporting the M cars will retain RWD as BMW M have replied to rumours that they are not taking weight off so that weight can go back on.

For our customers they know what a BMW is and it is there choice. There is a BMW for every preference with more on the way. Our customers will choose the brand they want to drive , a brand they desire , a brand that fulfills every need and desire of the customer.
Our sales are testament to the success of each BMW model not just someone's opinion in a magazine.

typical corporate response. but hell i guess in this day and age we are lucky to have some feedback.

[04cobra]

I hated my CTS-V. I will never buy another GM product as long as I live. It was uncomfortable and cheaply made. It was big and felt slow. I dont care what GM does with the new ones, they will still have those bits of plastic pieces that make the car feel like a rental.

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by 04cobra

I hated my CTS-V. I will never buy another GM product as long as I live. It was uncomfortable and cheaply made. It was big and felt slow. I dont care what GM does with the new ones, they will still have those bits of plastic pieces that make the car feel like a rental.

I really need to do a thorough comparison myself. I keep hearing complaints about other car's 'plastic' parts. Maybe I just didn't pay attention, but I drove a 2005 F150 FX4 for 7 years and then got into a bran new 2012 335i (almost all boxes checked) and didn't feel much of an upgrade in inside materials. Slightly? Sure, but nothing pronounced. The leather feels about the same the buttons on the radio, about the same. The few places where the plastic is 'soft touch' is nice, but that's about the only upgrade. And this is comparing a 4x4 truck that was driven for 7 years. Are the materials in other cars worse?

Maybe my standards were less in my truck since it MSRPd for 'only' just shy of $40k and I expect more from a just shy of $60k BMW, but honestly they weren't that far off and I'd expect them to be in different leagues.

Is the Chevy/Caddy products that inferior inside? I've never sat in one to even speculate so I'm clueless.

As far as the comment about it feeling slow, that's a first. What year was it? Pretty sure the last few model years would compare very favorably to the outgoing M3 in most performance categories so I find that to be an interesting comment. It is a bigger car, probably better compared with the M5 than the M3 perhaps.

[basscadet]

Interiors are tricky, I think. I can tolerate some things (BMW's quirky cupholders) but not others (that hideous fake brown wood crap BMW puts in EVERY interior).

I spent last week in a rental '13 Ford Fusion, the top of the line model with beige leather and the ecoboost engine. There is nothing in the 328xi loaner I recently drove that was any nicer on the inside than the Fusion other than HUD and the thickness of the steering wheel.

I also was surprised to feel how cheap the 2013 Audi S4 felt that I drove a few months ago. The VW DNA is strong in the B8 for sure. A far cry from older A4/S4 and miles and MILES away from the A6 which is phenomenal.

The Cadillac CTS-V I sat in did have an ugly radio/HVAC cluster with a lot of very shiny, hollow-feeling plastic but the Recaro seats more than made up for it.

In the end I think BMW 3 series interiors have felt increasingly cheaper since the E46 which was full of soft-touch surfaces. The F30 just feels very chintzy to me. Sorry if I offend anyone.

[04cobra]

Originally Posted by tdizzle

As far as the comment about it feeling slow, that's a first. What year was it? Pretty sure the last few model years would compare very favorably to the outgoing M3 in most performance categories so I find that to be an interesting comment. It is a bigger car, probably better compared with the M5 than the M3 perhaps.

Originally Posted by basscadet

The Cadillac CTS-V I sat in did have an ugly radio/HVAC cluster with a lot of very shiny, hollow-feeling plastic but the Recaro seats more than made up for it.

It was a 2009 CTS-V. The center console scratched if light breeze blew over it. The shiney parts arond the HVAC were very annoying as the sun would bounce off of them and into my eyes (also looked cheap). Steering wheel is what put me off the most I had the suede steering wheel, which felt ok, but the hard plastic underneath really dug into my hand. The car creaked ALOT. The recaros were SOOO uncomfortable, but I found I dont like recaros in ANY car. The front hood had this little plastic piece that whenever you opened the hood it felt like it was going to pop off. The nav system sucked. I also found out I hate keyless cars. I never knew where to put the FOB as I do not like things in my pockets while I drive. My wallet and phone went in the cup holders and the key I had to put on the seat...just irritating to me.

It was also an automatic, that was my bigggest mistake. The auto just felt very sluggish to me compared to my auto 335. I think if it was a manual I might have kept it.

Some of my complaints about the car are probably personnal and others wont find them to be an issue, but all of that added up really turned me off

As for it being slow, I came from a 550whp cobra, and the caddy being so heavy the butt dyno was just not there for me.

I am now carless and drive a 1st gen z4 and an 03 dodge durango...so I am eagerly waiting the new M3.

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by 04cobra

It was a 2009 CTS-V. The center console scratched if light breeze blew over it. The shiney parts arond the HVAC were very annoying as the sun would bounce off of them and into my eyes (also looked cheap). Steering wheel is what put me off the most I had the suede steering wheel, which felt ok, but the hard plastic underneath really dug into my hand. The car creaked ALOT. The recaros were SOOO uncomfortable, but I found I dont like recaros in ANY car. The front hood had this little plastic piece that whenever you opened the hood it felt like it was going to pop off. The nav system sucked. I also found out I hate keyless cars. I never knew where to put the FOB as I do not like things in my pockets while I drive. My wallet and phone went in the cup holders and the key I had to put on the seat...just irritating to me.

It was also an automatic, that was my bigggest mistake. The auto just felt very sluggish to me compared to my auto 335. I think if it was a manual I might have kept it.

Some of my complaints about the car are probably personnal and others wont find them to be an issue, but all of that added up really turned me off

As for it being slow, I came from a 550whp cobra, and the caddy being so heavy the butt dyno was just not there for me.

I am now carless and drive a 1st gen z4 and an 03 dodge durango...so I am eagerly waiting the new M3.

That all makes sense and puts your comments into perspective. I thought you were potentially talking about a couple model years newer cars, since I thought they at least improved a few things in the last few years.

The auto is probably the biggest disappointment. GM just didn't do that car justice with the auto in it. As far as the power? Yea, you're coming from a lighter car with more hp so I could see why it felt slow to you. I can only imagine if you were driving the last gen M3 though as the CTS-V isn't exactly slow by any stretch even with its weight.

I'm sure you'll enjoy the M3, but it will still probably feel 'slow' compared to the cobra. I did notice you didn't compare the cobra's interior to the CTS-Vs, I'd hope that it would at least win that comparo handily.

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by 04cobra

I am now carless and drive a 1st gen z4 and an 03 dodge durango...so I am eagerly waiting the new M3.

That makes two of us!

I am driving an '05 Acura TL just waiting to get a chance at the new ATS-V, CTS-V, M3, and C63 AMG, or maybe even the new Mustang. It's both a terrible and terrific time to be in the car market. Ugh! The waiting is killing me....

[04cobra]

Originally Posted by tdizzle

I'm sure you'll enjoy the M3, but it will still probably feel 'slow' compared to the cobra. I did notice you didn't compare the cobra's interior to the CTS-Vs, I'd hope that it would at least win that comparo handily.

Well the cobra isnt classified as a luxury car, so i wasnt expecting the interior of the cobra to be anything special plus it was my first car I ever bought back in 2004. It was a simple interior with no bells and whistles and it was my weekend/nice day car.

The caddy I bought to have more of a luxury performance daily driver. It didnt really live up to any of those to me

Interior - felt cheap
Performance - was there, but I think the auto killed it
daily driver - crap MPG, I am fine with low MPG but the tank was so small I was filling the sucker up every other day.

I think I will be OK with the m3 power, I was good with the 335 power so I assume the m3 will feel better than that. I was expecting insane power from the cts-v based on what everyone said...but I just didnt feel it (again probably the weight). My z4 is actually pretty damn fun to drive even if its slow as balls.

[BMW M3 CRT]

With NAIAS 2014 only few days away ... are there any informations when the ATS-V would be released ?

And what kind of engine (NA V8, V6TT or V8TT) it get finally ?