ATS-V vs M3/M4

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

It's not just about numbers.

Scott - you're right about that. It's not about power, it is about the overall package. But it seems BMW is struggling here as well.

Does BMW plan to address the pummeling they are receiving in comparisons between 3 and 5 series cars against the Cadillacs, Lexus, and Audi offerings? The consensus from motor journalists on both sides of the ocean is that BMW cars are getting too soft, too unresponsive, and are no longer the sharp-edged cars that they have been as far as I can remember.

In the past 20 years I have not seen BMW cars received so poorly.

Your loyal customers are willing to forget numbers if they get the ultimate driving machine in return. But BMW needs to hold up to their end of the bargain or expect to lose the enthusiast market which is a small piece of the pie, but an important one for your brand image.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by basscadet

Scott - you're right about that. It's not about power, it is about the overall package. But it seems BMW is struggling here as well.

Does BMW plan to address the pummeling they are receiving in comparisons between 3 and 5 series cars against the Cadillacs, Lexus, and Audi offerings? The consensus from motor journalists on both sides of the ocean is that BMW cars are getting too soft, too unresponsive, and are no longer the sharp-edged cars that they have been as far as I can remember.

In the past 20 years I have not seen BMW cars received so poorly.

Your loyal customers are willing to forget numbers if they get the ultimate driving machine in return. But BMW needs to hold up to their end of the bargain or expect to lose the enthusiast market which is a small piece of the pie, but an important one for your brand image.

Any brand can squander its cachet of what gives it an identity. I do agree that recently BMW has tread into some dangerous waters.

Edited for an error

[buildbright]

Originally Posted by basscadet

Scott - you're right about that. It's not about power, it is about the overall package. But it seems BMW is struggling here as well.

Does BMW plan to address the pummeling they are receiving in comparisons between 3 and 5 series cars against the Cadillacs, Lexus, and Audi offerings? The consensus from motor journalists on both sides of the ocean is that BMW cars are getting too soft, too unresponsive, and are no longer the sharp-edged cars that they have been as far as I can remember.

In the past 20 years I have not seen BMW cars received so poorly.

Your loyal customers are willing to forget numbers if they get the ultimate driving machine in return. But BMW needs to hold up to their end of the bargain or expect to lose the enthusiast market which is a small piece of the pie, but an important one for your brand image.

I have read a few journalists that have been negative but overall the reception has been great. I still think the BMW 3 series is king and I voted with my wallet. The 5 series has gotten soft but that's the way of the world. Blame the general car buying population. People want huge land yatches the have no interior noise and a steering wheel you can turn with your pinky.

[pkimM3r]

I would only get a ctsV wagon since there is no rs6 but no other cadillac is an option for me.

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by gblansten

Any brand can squander its cache of what gives it an identity. I do agree that recently BMW has tread into some dangerous waters.

I think the word you're looking for is "cachet." And how long has BMW been losing its cache? Maybe since 2011?

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

I think the word you're looking for is "cachet." And how long has BMW been losing its cache? Maybe since 2011?

Thanks on "cachet". You are absolutely right.

[FASTTOYS]

Originally Posted by basscadet

Scott - you're right about that. It's not about power, it is about the overall package. But it seems BMW is struggling here as well.

Does BMW plan to address the pummeling they are receiving in comparisons between 3 and 5 series cars against the Cadillacs, Lexus, and Audi offerings? The consensus from motor journalists on both sides of the ocean is that BMW cars are getting too soft, too unresponsive, and are no longer the sharp-edged cars that they have been as far as I can remember.

In the past 20 years I have not seen BMW cars received so poorly.

Your loyal customers are willing to forget numbers if they get the ultimate driving machine in return. But BMW needs to hold up to their end of the bargain or expect to lose the enthusiast market which is a small piece of the pie, but an important one for your brand image.

I have owned 6 different M cars since 2000 & I agree with the above post. + BMW is diluting the M brand by offering dress up M packages on NON M cars to make extra BS money. The new M3/M4 should have a min of 450 + HP from BMW. Its bad enough they are not racing the car in motorsports..

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by chicochico

Rumors...
http://rumors.automobilemag.com/cadi...#axzz2k15WEezO

Good read. The smaller displacement seems counterintuitive but we'll see. We can add this to the list of cars in this class rumored to approach or hit 500hp.

[chicochico]

There are those that say Caddy is the new BMW and BMW is the new Merc.
After I drove the F30 with it with pinky finger steering, I tended to agree with the Merc comparison. The Caddy one time will tell.
But I'm waiting for the reviews including my own on how the new M3 drives . Hopefully it's not watered down too.

If nothing else, competition is good for us all in the space.

And where does this leave Merc now too?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by gblansten

Thanks on "cachet". You are absolutely right.

For me right now it is not so much about the notions of lost cachet and brand dilution. Not that I am saying those things aren't in the mix, but they are subjective and dependent on the individual so they may not make as strong a case.

What we do know for sure, however, is that the competition becoming much better. And this isn't just from performance brands in the luxury class that are considered direct M competitors, such as Mercedes AMG, Lexus F, Cadillac V, Audi RS, but also from American Pony cars like Mustang and Camaro.

Just for example, remember what passed for a Mustang GT when the E90 3 Series launched? It was a tired old 300hp V8 that would be easily outmatched in handling and acceleration by even a 335i a couple years later. But Ford stepped up their game and now we have a Mustang GT with the pedigree to nearly match an M3 in all areas and of course the Boss which outpaces it on a track. That's a lot of progress in a short amount of time. Sure, BMW is on the cusp of replacing their car, but so too is Ford.

The other thing that is easy to forget - coupes. Everyone was building performance luxury sedans because sedans are volume products so the price of entry is lower and it is easier to get your name in the game. But now we'll have the RC coupe, ATS coupe, C coupe, and even the A5 coupe has only been with us for one generation. Each of these will spawn a high performance model, so suddenly there are four direct competitors for the M4 coupe that were never there before.

The result of these and other developments is that while in 2008 when the E92 M3 launched with its magnificent high revving V8 it was for most of us an obvious choice, today that has changed. Back then there just wasn't anything out there that ticked all the boxes like the M3 could. But come next year we are going to have a lot of choices, each with their own compelling stories. Give it another year after that with the new C AMG coupe (sedan will probably come late next year, however) and a new Camaro looming as well, and the market looks set to become downright crowded. Great for the consumer, but certainly a challenge for BMW and M Division.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

For me right now it is not so much about the notions of lost cachet and brand dilution. Not that I am saying those things aren't in the mix, but they are subjective and dependent on the individual so they may not make as strong a case.

What we do know for sure, however, is that the competition becoming much better. And this isn't just from performance brands in the luxury class that are considered direct M competitors, such as Mercedes AMG, Lexus F, Cadillac V, Audi RS, but also from American Pony cars like Mustang and Camaro.

Just for example, remember what passed for a Mustang GT when the E90 3 Series launched? It was a tired old 300hp V8 that would be easily outmatched in handling and acceleration by even a 335i a couple years later. But Ford stepped up their game and now we have a Mustang GT with the pedigree to nearly match an M3 in all areas and of course the Boss which outpaces it on a track. That's a lot of progress in a short amount of time. Sure, BMW is on the cusp of replacing their car, but so too is Ford.

The other thing that is easy to forget - coupes. Everyone was building performance luxury sedans because sedans are volume products so the price of entry is lower and it is easier to get your name in the game. But now we'll have the RC coupe, ATS coupe, C coupe, and even the A5 coupe has only been with us for one generation. Each of these will spawn a high performance model, so suddenly there are four direct competitors for the M4 coupe that were never there before.

The result of these and other developments is that while in 2008 when the E92 M3 launched with its magnificent high revving V8 it was for most of us an obvious choice, today that has changed. Back then there just wasn't anything out there that ticked all the boxes like the M3 could. But come next year we are going to have a lot of choices, each with their own compelling stories. Give it another year after that with the new C AMG coupe (sedan will probably come late next year, however) and a new Camaro looming as well, and the market looks set to become downright crowded. Great for the consumer, but certainly a challenge for BMW and M Division.

I could not have said it any better

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

For me right now it is not so much about the notions of lost cachet and brand dilution. Not that I am saying those things aren't in the mix, but they are subjective and dependent on the individual so they may not make as strong a case.

What we do know for sure, however, is that the competition becoming much better. And this isn't just from performance brands in the luxury class that are considered direct M competitors, such as Mercedes AMG, Lexus F, Cadillac V, Audi RS, but also from American Pony cars like Mustang and Camaro.

Just for example, remember what passed for a Mustang GT when the E90 3 Series launched? It was a tired old 300hp V8 that would be easily outmatched in handling and acceleration by even a 335i a couple years later. But Ford stepped up their game and now we have a Mustang GT with the pedigree to nearly match an M3 in all areas and of course the Boss which outpaces it on a track. That's a lot of progress in a short amount of time. Sure, BMW is on the cusp of replacing their car, but so too is Ford.

The other thing that is easy to forget - coupes. Everyone was building performance luxury sedans because sedans are volume products so the price of entry is lower and it is easier to get your name in the game. But now we'll have the RC coupe, ATS coupe, C coupe, and even the A5 coupe has only been with us for one generation. Each of these will spawn a high performance model, so suddenly there are four direct competitors for the M4 coupe that were never there before.

The result of these and other developments is that while in 2008 when the E92 M3 launched with its magnificent high revving V8 it was for most of us an obvious choice, today that has changed. Back then there just wasn't anything out there that ticked all the boxes like the M3 could. But come next year we are going to have a lot of choices, each with their own compelling stories. Give it another year after that with the new C AMG coupe (sedan will probably come late next year, however) and a new Camaro looming as well, and the market looks set to become downright crowded. Great for the consumer, but certainly a challenge for BMW and M Division.

You make some excellent points. It is going to be really interesting to watch this all play out. BMW is not assured of dominance in the F8x market segment this time around.

[chicochico]

And the Mustang GT is finally getting IRS and C+D said that in 2015 the V8 should get an upgrade to ~500HP - for the base GT.
The interior still looks like it will look like crap though but for half of the price of the M3 it will be a hell of a value proposition.

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by chicochico

And the Mustang GT is finally getting IRS and C+D said that in 2015 the V8 should get an upgrade to ~500HP - for the base GT.
The interior still looks like it will look like crap though but for half of the price of the M3 it will be a hell of a value proposition.

+1

If they even slightly upgrade the interior it'll be a tough call. It will most likely have virtually equal performance at half the cost with similar tech (nav, backup cameras, etc). That's before we even talk about their 'performance' entries like the Boss which will end up pricing around a moderately equipped 335. If you look at the Camaro ZL1 then we have a car out already that will probably still perform better than the future M3 for $15-20k less than a well equipped M3.

But then again, no one ever said a BMW was ever a good value. Good cars but the gap for what you get over the 'lesser' competitors isn't equal to the price they charge. The M3 no longer leads the pack in performance so we're left rationalizing buying one with it's 'luxury' appeal I guess. But honestly they're not that luxurious if we're being objective (that's 5 series territory).

I still want one, but I think I'd be making the purchase with my heart than my mind. Feeling, it's a BMW M so it has to be better than a silly Mustang or Camaro if if performance numbers indicate otherwise right?

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by buildbright

I have read a few journalists that have been negative but overall the reception has been great. I still think the BMW 3 series is king and I voted with my wallet. The 5 series has gotten soft but that's the way of the world. Blame the general car buying population. People want huge land yatches the have no interior noise and a steering wheel you can turn with your pinky.

I am positive your car is a very nice one. Certainly nicer than mine!

But my question is, in what publication has there been a comparison of the F30 to its competitors in which it has won? Now that there is ANY correlation between this and YOUR experience with your car, for which only you are the judge.

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Back then there just wasn't anything out there that ticked all the boxes like the M3 could. But come next year we are going to have a lot of choices, each with their own compelling stories.

Excellent post, mkoesel.

I have recently divested myself of my car toys and am anxiously awaiting the next hot sports sedan. The next year is going to be an exciting time for me.

To me, BMW is the "home team" and I root for them to win this next challenge but they should not take for granted my patronage.

Example: If in fact the next Shelby 350 from Ford does indeed have a flat-plane turbocharged V8 engine that makes 500+ horsepower, released as a 2015 model, I will have a very hard time ignoring that performance value.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by basscadet

Scott - you're right about that. It's not about power, it is about the overall package. But it seems BMW is struggling here as well.

Does BMW plan to address the pummeling they are receiving in comparisons between 3 and 5 series cars against the Cadillacs, Lexus, and Audi offerings? The consensus from motor journalists on both sides of the ocean is that BMW cars are getting too soft, too unresponsive, and are no longer the sharp-edged cars that they have been as far as I can remember.

In the past 20 years I have not seen BMW cars received so poorly.

Your loyal customers are willing to forget numbers if they get the ultimate driving machine in return. But BMW needs to hold up to their end of the bargain or expect to lose the enthusiast market which is a small piece of the pie, but an important one for your brand image.

Personally I don't and this includes many at Munich get worked up over comparison tests because we do our own internal comparison tests , internal but handled by outsiders for less bias.
We also do back to back benchmarking and we do find in certain outcomes that like everything else we see politics at work.

BMW stresses the importance of dynamics but the skyline has changed not just for BMW but everybody else. At BMW the goal is to remain independent and not fall down to committees. But there is more that is required from the automobile industry and Efficiency is one of them. BMW are meeting all targets and are the leading premium manufacturer in sustainability. There are several competitors who are not and end up having to pay the fines, as proved in the past no one can keep doing this forever.
But BMW are not just about EfficientDynamics although the benefits and implementation of the initiative has been very successful for the company and beneficial for the customer.

The customer dynamic is also changing and there is no choice but to adapt and to progress to the demands of the customer. Each BMW model stands for a particular customer , and the customer knows what they will get when they purchase a BMW.

The BMW image is embedded in the collective psyche. That is why I am concerned that when manufacturers or indeed auto media come out and say it is a better BMW you have to ask where is the originality?
Meeting a benchmark is important but you have to bring something new and interesting or else you are left with a perfect imitation.
Enthusiasts can see right through this, and enthusiasts can see that we are giving the cars that are desirable and fulfil a specific enthusiast criteria.
Examples such as the BMW M3 , M4 or M235i Coupes.

The new M3 and M4 are at a very enlightening period. The cars are lighter and we know that some of our competitors cannot match the lightweight aspects without spending more money and increasing the price of the product.
So BMW has a significant advantage. An advantage that will lead on to many other products within the BMW portfolio.

The BMW brand image has progressed due to actual progress especially with the advent of new markets and it is not just BMW that is a victim of its success.
In the landscape today no one can afford to stand still and the success lies in the unorthodox or blasphemous segments to traditional BMW enthusiasts.
The prospect of growth here in these segments are far too great to ignore , and that goes for new segments in which niche vehicles play a huge part in expansion. BMW is a huge innovator it invests on the here and now , if we take CFRP construction. Our main two competitors are a few years away from doing the same thing. In that five years we will see replacements of all the current BMW models utilising CFRP in key areas ahead of our competition.
And that weight reduction will be noticeable especially within an M car.

The next 5er will use CFRP in the heaviest areas of the chassis but CFRP body panels in one area or the other will be reserved for the next M5.
Due to recent reporting the M cars will retain RWD as BMW M have replied to rumours that they are not taking weight off so that weight can go back on.

For our customers they know what a BMW is and it is there choice. There is a BMW for every preference with more on the way. Our customers will choose the brand they want to drive , a brand they desire , a brand that fulfills every need and desire of the customer.
Our sales are testament to the success of each BMW model not just someone's opinion in a magazine.

[khanyam4]

I'll see you here on this board this summer.

[basscadet]

Scott, I appreciate your frank response. If nothing else, it is interesting to see BMW insight.

[buildbright]

Originally Posted by basscadet

I am positive your car is a very nice one. Certainly nicer than mine!

But my question is, in what publication has there been a comparison of the F30 to its competitors in which it has won? Now that there is ANY correlation between this and YOUR experience with your car, for which only you are the judge.

Its not about who's car is nicer to me it's a personnel choice. I love my car because i bought what i like. I am sure your car is nicer for you. I have never deamed about another persons car.

I have read a few articles where the 3 series was the top but to be honest I don't care to look back to see. To me magazine reviews mean very little because I buy based on my Experience with the car.

I think the S4/S5 and the F30 are the best cars in the segment. Not a Lexus or Cadillac fan at all.

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by buildbright

I think the S4/S5 and the F30 are the best cars in the segment. Not a Lexus or Cadillac fan at all.

Well that is certainly something we can agree on.

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by basscadet

Scott - you're right about that. It's not about power, it is about the overall package. But it seems BMW is struggling here as well.

Does BMW plan to address the pummeling they are receiving in comparisons between 3 and 5 series cars against the Cadillacs, Lexus, and Audi offerings? The consensus from motor journalists on both sides of the ocean is that BMW cars are getting too soft, too unresponsive, and are no longer the sharp-edged cars that they have been as far as I can remember.

In the past 20 years I have not seen BMW cars received so poorly.

Your loyal customers are willing to forget numbers if they get the ultimate driving machine in return. But BMW needs to hold up to their end of the bargain or expect to lose the enthusiast market which is a small piece of the pie, but an important one for your brand image.

Scott, with due respect, I'm not sure what your point is in this long post except I'm seeing a contradictory message. First you say that BMW has:

"no choice but to adapt and to progress to the demands of the customer... success lies in the unorthodox or blasphemous segments to traditional BMW enthusiasts. The prospect of growth here in these segments are far too great to ignore... Our sales are testament to the success..."

which I take as you saying that the world is changing towards the center and so the softer BMW's are catering to the masses (to the chagrin of "traditional BMW enthusiasts"), which has translated more sales. Fine. But then you also say:

"...enthusiasts can see that we are giving the cars that are desirable and fulfil a specific enthusiast criteria."

which BMW is clearly not "giving" if it's trying to cater to the masses that includes the likes of MB, Audi, Cadillac, Lexus and (ugh!...) Ford or Chevy. So, which is it then, the enthusiasts or the masses?

It would seem to me that BMW is clearly favoring the latter and so the distinctive dynamics of past BMW's that enthusiasts have trumpeted, have eroded to the point where some posters here (including me) are considering other brands for their next cars. As a BMW-only family for the past ~20 years (from E3x to E9x), I never thought I'd reach this cross-road.