Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by jrsites

I'll bet you my 1er that you won't find a true manual transmission in ANY car in ANY of the world's top racing series. Reason? Being able to change gears (that's the proper term because you're not actually shifting) simply by pressing a button on the steering wheel while keeping your right foot on the accelerator and your left foot on the floor will ALWAYS be quicker around the track.

Technically, apart from drag racing, every racing gearbox is a manual. :wink:

As for the automatic being faster, that could just be down to gearing, but an automatic gearbox will almost always result in more power loss through the drivetrain than a manual. So inherently, a manual is more powerful. As stated, though, that can be compensated for by gearing. Additionally with the automatic 335i coming with only one oil cooler, the automatic wont be the performance option.

[x7original4x]

theres a difference between the transmissions in F1 cars and a BMW.......F1 cars do not have automatic transmissions, nor steptronic transmissions, they have automated manual transmisions.....which means there's still a clutch that 's operated by a computer. Steptronic and automated manual transmissions are quite different..... M power....i believe that on the 335i any car with the sports package now has the additional oil cooler....BMW changed it

p.s. formula 1 drivers use a clutch off the line

[TerpENME]

The auto is superb no doubt about it, but I don't care if it is 3 seconds faster to 60 and irons my socks in the trunk while it's at it... I'll always buy a stick if it's available. Just me.

[Spoonie]

A manual transmission with a Clutch Pedal is an archaic device. I like manual transmissions, but the whole push-in the clutch while shifting the gear thing seems like a relic from the past. I’m sorry but clutch pedals seem out of place in modern cars IMO.

[x7original4x]

this is the way i look at it......if im going to be modding the car then im going w/ the manual because the auto cant take much more power....but if your goibng to leave it stock or just stick to a procede/excede then i guess you would be fine with the auto

[destruct007]

I know everyone has an oppinion on this but revciently I had more insite. I far prefer manual. Not for a sence of pride or anything, it feel more fun to me, like the power band is more at your disposal. I like control of exactly when the gear engages, I also drive an e90 325 that's got steptronic and it's super smooth but when you are looking for the faster get acceleration it has a noticable lag a bit inbetween gears. Where manual can switch as fast as you can basically.
Also manual gets better gas milage, I don't like that I can't slow down with the car with the engine/clutch even with steptronic seems to not slow the car down as much as a manual. I feel like I'm all breaks with AT and more fluid with MT.

I also love that the one I perfer is cheaper.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by Spoonie

A manual transmission with a Clutch Pedal is an archaic device. I like manual transmissions, but the whole push-in the clutch while shifting the gear thing seems like a relic from the past. I’m sorry but clutch pedals seem out of place in modern cars IMO.

LOL... your argument that "it's an archaic device",
and yet..... the AT still hasn't been able to supplant it,
is testament to the fact it's still the best performance tranny.

[Big Red One]

Originally Posted by destruct007

I also drive an e90 325 that's got steptronic and it's super smooth but when you are looking for the faster get acceleration it has a noticable lag a bit inbetween gears. Where manual can switch as fast as you can basically.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you are talking about driving your E90 Step in the D/S mode, right? The E90 AT I drove switched gears pretty much instantateously. That's the way it felt to me, at least.

Originally Posted by destruct007

I don't like that I can't slow down with the car with the engine/clutch even with steptronic seems to not slow the car down as much as a manual. I feel like I'm all breaks with AT and more fluid with MT.

But you can. Just reach up and tap the gear selector forward and it will shift down through the gears. It even rev-matches for you! As far as I know, it'll go down as many gears as can safely be done without breaking any parts.

Some people have the misconception that downshifting is used on the track to help slow the car down. It is to some extent, but if you're threshold braking hard enough starting at the right brake point, you won't have enough time to get any useful braking action out of the engine before reaching your turn-in point. In most instances you need to be in your exit gear BEFORE entering the turn. Otherwise, if you're trying to shift in the middle of a turn you risk Trailing Throttle Oversteer.

So the ideal technique is:
1) Find your braking point.
2) While locating your turn-in point, brake hard and get down to the gear you want to go into and out of the corner in BEFORE reaching your turn-in point.
3) Smoothly roll off the brake and onto the throttle while locating your apex point.
4) Smoothly roll into the throttle as you accelerate past your apex and through the exit of the turn.

When you get it down it almost has a rhythmic dance feel to it.

Unless you're driving an 18-wheel big rig, your brakes are the instrument of choice for 99% of the slowing effort heading into a turn.

[destruct007]

Originally Posted by jrsites

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you are talking about driving your E90 Step in the D/S mode, right? The E90 AT I drove switched gears pretty much instantateously. That's the way it felt to me, at least.

Yeah that's what I'm talking about. It switches right away but the power isn't available in that gear right away. Like it always eases in the clutch in. The best time to experience the lag I'm talking about is try accelerating fast in the higher rmps getting on a freeway. when you shift, instead of a smooth power band feeling it feels like a lag in between gears. Not huge, but noticeable. I'm left with the feeling it's faster and smoother on my 330i MT (true there are other factors in that gear ratio and such, 5 speed vs 6)

I know the tap forward, it doesn't seems to slow the car down as much as MT, it's like it's too smooth and rmp's don't drop in between shifts like the will in a MT. Probably a good thing. I'm probably killing my clutch the way I do it.

what's really the most important is how you drive and what you like about driving. I'm not a racer or engine moder (other than the chip one day in my future 135i) I'm ADD and like to have more to do while driving. When I changed from AT to a car with MT I felt like I paid more attention to the road, kept me thinking more about driving.

[mikeo]

Originally Posted by destruct007

... When I changed from AT to a car with MT I felt like I paid more attention to the road, kept me thinking more about driving.

You just hit on a subtle but key difference between AT and MT, IMO.

[hector]

Originally Posted by Spoonie

A manual transmission with a Clutch Pedal is an archaic device...but the whole push-in the clutch while shifting the gear thing seems like a relic from the past.

so are chopsticks (to westerners) but some people still like to use them. so what if it's actually easier to pick up a nori roll with a fork? it's called having fun. got a problem with that too??

[Madjack]

Formula One cars use semi-automatic sequential gearboxes with six or seven forward gears and one reverse gear. The driver initiates gear changes using paddles mounted on the back of the steering wheel and electro-hydraulics perform the actual change as well as throttle control. Clutch control is also performed electro-hydraulically except from and to a standstill when the driver must operate the clutch using a lever mounted on the back of the steering wheel. By regulation the cars use rear wheel drive. A modern F1 clutch is a multi-plate carbon design with a diameter of less than four inches (100 mm), weighing less than 2.20 lbs (1 kg) and handling 900 hp (670 kW) or so.
Continuously variable transmissions have long been banned, thus creating contention in the introduction of the new seamless shift gearbox, a type of dual-clutch transmission which nearly eliminates the brief power interruption during a gear change. The ultimate advantage of this is said to be from five to ten seconds over a complete race distance, which is a significant gain when races are sometimes only won by three seconds or less. As of the 2007 race season, most of the top teams are using seamless shift transmissions.

FYI, this is the transmission an F1 car uses.

[CeeTeeX5]

I currently drive a manual but my car was previously an auto prior to the swap. Prior to driving the 335i, I swore that I would never go back to an auto. Well after driving around in my friend's 335i for awhile I got a little excited about how the auto worked in the car. But I think I would get bored of driving the auto because it does distance you from being in full control of the car. I'm also hearing that theres been talk that the auto may not be able to handle the additional HP and TQ that some of the piggyback systems can produce. For me it will still likely be 6MT although the 335i AT is pretty sweet!

[imported_merlot]

Originally Posted by 1erich

My wife struggles with a manual. Being a nervous driver she concentrates obsessively on everything going on around her making it difficult adding something else to focus on. It's hilarious watching her try to park in a lot. She's so nervous pulling up a couple feet to get closer to a curb. She's afraid the clutch will engage suddenly and cause us to crash over the curb. I just try to be supportive and hope she'll pick it up but so far I can't convince her to drive outside of empty parking lots...*sigh*

That being said my next car will still be a manual. It's a big part of what makes driving fun for me. I'm not interested in track driving competitively, just having fun, so the slightly quicker lap times are not a big draw for me. It's more about the experience, which is why any of us are interested in BMW's at all I suppose.

I guess I'll have to try to take her out to a country road and practise some more with my dad's Carolla. I wouldn't want her to miss out on all the fun! I'd love to get her out to a track day instruction school or even better a rally school some day. You'd probably never guess it, but she watches F1 religiously with me so I'm hoping that spark is in her somewhere!

-Erich

I've been teaching my future wife how to drive my manual WRX. One exercise I did was to have her practice taking off while I screamed in her ear and made horn noises. While pretty funny, it helped her concentrate to ignore me and go at her own pace. Now at a stop light she's not as nervous. :wink:

She's down with me getting the 135i (manual tranny) over the new STI since she loves BMW's (and would rather be seen in it ). She'll probably take it work occasionally when I ride the cycle in. I have to say I'm thrilled she wants to learn how to drive a manual properly. :thumbup:

[adc]

Originally Posted by Spoonie

A manual transmission with a Clutch Pedal is an archaic device.

I hate to think what you make of the wheel.

Originally Posted by destruct007

When I changed from AT to a car with MT I felt like I paid more attention to the road, kept me thinking more about driving.

This is the reason my wife dislikes automatic transmissions.

[aesthetect]

Originally Posted by destruct007

...When I changed from AT to a car with MT I felt like I paid more attention to the road, kept me thinking more about driving.

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

The N54 uses two small turbos, in parallel - one on the header attached to cylinders 1-3, the other on the header attached to cylinders 4-6. The firing order ensures that each turbo is fed a near constant supply of exhaust gas and the direct injection (and the valve timing tricks that can entail) help the small turbos produce all 300 lb ft of torque at approximately 1300 RPM (right off idle!). There shouldn't be noticeable turbo lag.

The ZF supplied auto is a six-speed that can pretty much duplicate an MT experience w/o a clutch pedal. Control of shifts are accomplished through the console gear lever or optional paddles on the steering wheel. The thing even rev matches downshifts (as has been noted). This may be the best auto trans made if someone wants an MT experience yet also needs the 'put-it-in-D' capabilities of a slushbox. The only thing better in my mind is the DSC manual that VW/Audi has, but it's a true manual (w/o clutch) that can imitate an auto - rather than an auto that can imitate a manual.

to me those two posts sum up the key points for each. with a true manual you are in complete control. you can actually feel the connection to the road through your left foot. with an automatic you get spacey cause all you have to do is mash the "go" pedal. and with any kind of paddle shift steptronic, it is inevitable that i will end up just putting it into auto mode 90% of the time. which is unfortunate because the daily driving is what is made fun by a manual in my opinion, and it is unrealistic to think you will paddle shift day in and day out. but for the people who love to choose their shift points under spirited driving but find a clutch irritating the rest of the time its perfect. and the reason it works so well here is as atr said, the power delivery from the N54 is smooth and always available. the auto doesnt need the human interpretation of where in the rev band it really needs to be, because the power is all over. that being said, an honda or a blown subie flat four gets a punch in the balls from an automatic engine.

it is also true that the clutch is an archaic device in the sense of the future of automotive technology. algorithms that control the powertrain in hybrid vehicles are similar in structure to those that select shift points in automatic transmissions (selecting power source or operating mode based on speed, throttle position, battery state-of-charge etc). and whether or not hybrids are part of "your view" of the future of automotive technology, this type of seamless control of hundreds of resources in a manner transparent to the user for the reason of efficiency, safety, what have you, is apparent in every modern drivetrain. and the more this becomes true the less capable we will be of being able to do so without having that same computer selecting what engine rpm is wants to be at.

and these types of control algorithms are what i 'do' but i will be driving with a clutch until they take it away.

:drinking:to the wives all about the manual 135!

[Big Red One]

Originally Posted by merlot

I've been teaching my future wife how to drive my manual WRX. One exercise I did was to have her practice taking off while I screamed in her ear and made horn noises.

That's a good one.

When I was taught to drive a manual, I had to start the car from a dead standstill and go through all of the gears using ONLY THE CLUTCH. Foot off the accelerator the whole time. Obviously, you need to do this in a loooooong parking lot that is empty, but it does a great job of teaching you how to "feel" the fly wheel engaging. Learning with this technique helps you really get down that ability to "launch" a MT car by feathering just the right amount of clutch out as you roll on the accelerator. You get gobs of acceleration and a sweet engine sound as it revvs up through the rpms under load, but without all the high-revving, clutch dumping heysterics that people who don't know how to properly drive an MT display.

[spudw]

For me, the tranny choice is made on the basis of which one will generate the most enjoyment. Sure AT is easier, and may even punch out a faster lap time in the this case. But in real life I spend very little time chasing lap times and much more time bringing a smile to my face downshifting into tight corners or rowing through the gears on an expressway on-ramp.

To each his own, and there is a case to be made for AT, too. But I don't think an AT can ever provide the visceral experience that a MT does.

An LCD and a mouse will never replace a canvas and paint....

[Spoonie]

Originally Posted by adc

I hate to think what you make of the wheel.

The wheel, just like discovering how to make fire were inventions that changed man kind. I don't think I'd put a 6-speed transmission in the same league as the invention of the wheel.

My car is a manual. I like Manuals, but after 19 years of driving manuals I'm ready for a change. The regular automatics appear to be getting close, and the DSG trasmissions are even faster than a manual. I've learned how to left-foot brake and autos provide the perfect platform. I still wouldn't get a Torque-converter type automatic, but a DSG or an effective SMG setup is tempting

[mikeo]

The DSG and SMG transmissions do not have a torque converter, so they are not technically automatic transmissions, but electro-hydrolicly(sp?) clutched manual trannies.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by mikeo

The DSG and SMG transmissions do not have a torque converter, so they are not technically automatic transmissions, but electro-hydrolicly(sp?) clutched manual trannies.

^ WHS....
The nice thing with the DSG tranny is they still communicate feel, like a traditional MT.
A DSG is the only tranny that I would consider changing to, from a normal MT.

[Spoonie]

Originally Posted by mikeo

The DSG and SMG transmissions do not have a torque converter, so they are not technically automatic transmissions, but electro-hydrolicly(sp?) clutched manual trannies.

I know that. I just wasn't able to state that in the sentence correctly.

This is how you break it down:

Manumatic = Tiptronic type systems (with Torque Converter)

Automanual = SMG, Ferrari's system

Not sure how DSG categorizes. I would call the DSG system an Automanual because the system has a clutch (2) that's controlled by a computer.